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To: robertpaulsen
My personal opinion.
A submachine gun or machine gun is a regular infantry type weapon, and should be available to any citizen of the U.S..
Likewise, an M-60, or 50 cal should be available.
I would even include the right to use silencers, and ownership of sawed off shotguns, which, historically were modified and used since their inception.
Sawed off shotguns were included with machine guns in Miller (39) because it was not a "military" weapon as defined by the courts.
Evidence was not included showing the use of such shotguns as "trench brooms" during WW1.
Likewise, the advent of the machine gun occured just after WW1, and was not used as a military weapon until WW2, and was therefore not included as a military weapon.
It's also interesting to note that Miller was about interstate transport and taxes, and that the 2nd amendment was actually a secondary issue. ( Attacking the 2nd amendment through the "back door", so to speak. )

Just my opinion.

12 posted on 05/11/2002 1:01:53 PM PDT by Drammach
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To: Drammach
I concur, and that's probably a reasonable list (I don't know about the silencers, though).

Now, here's where it gets dicey. When the Brady bunch holds up, or demonstrates, these weapons to the American public, what will be the reaction?

13 posted on 05/11/2002 1:11:11 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Drammach
"Likewise, an M-60, or 50 cal should be available."

Possibly not since these are crew served, not individual, weapons. Almost all "machine guns" are crew served. But, not all fully automatic weapons are "machine guns".

If you're going to argue for an "individual right" then it could be argued that right protects individual, not crew served, weapons.

20 posted on 05/11/2002 3:02:46 PM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: Drammach
A couple of historical points. First, the Miller decision was only dealing with possession of a short barreled shotgun. There were no arguments made for Miller as only the United States gfovernment presented argumants in the case. The Court ruled that in the absence of any evidence linking possession of a sawed off shotgun to a militia the tax law was upheld. Now machine guns were used extensively in World War I. It was to deal with the carnage of machine guns that the tank was developed. You are correct about short barreled shotguns being used in the trenches. The Gatling gun was used in the American Civil War. The US Army used machine guns during the Spanish American War and in the relief of Peking at the turn of the Century. Likewise machine guns were used in the pursuit of Pancho Villa by General Pershing's troops.

The modern machine gun was invented by Hiram Maxim in the 1880's. The Maxim guns were extensively employed by British colonial forces in the latter part of the 19th Century.

In fact the Gavernments choice of US vs Miller as the test case for the NFA was probably cynically chosen to not include a machine gun.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

300 posted on 05/14/2002 7:25:22 AM PDT by harpseal
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