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Schools, Kids and Whippings
Sierra Times ^ | Dorothy Anne Seese

Posted on 05/20/2002 9:54:04 AM PDT by Sir Gawain

Schools, Kids and Whippings
no, I can't agree with that!
By Dorothy Anne Seese
Published 05. 19. 02 at 21:42 Sierra Time

Because of the lack of discipline among school kids these days, some folks honestly believe that bringing back classroom "whuppins" is going to solve the problems created by parental failure, "easy" ways out of personal responsibility, federalized education where the agenda overrides parental authority, where schools blacklist "problem" parents who are, for the most part, those who disagree with flaky school policies, and a great deal of federally-sponsored racial bias.

To which I say, bullschwacky!

Okay so I don't have kids of my own, but I had two parents, a war-zone home, and I have friends who do have kids. Discipline begins at home. Respect for authority begins at home. The knowledge of right and wrong begins at home. Instruction about the value of a good education begins at home. In fact, life begins at home!

No whuppins at any school will instill in any child the values that parents fail to teach or teach properly. It might make for more dropouts, runaways and resentment, including a few more school shootings or other acts of violence, because we're living in a violent era that didn't exist when I was growing up. Oh yes, some violence has always existed ... but not on the scale we see it now. Today's headlines injected onto a 1950's front page of a city newspaper would cause collective cardiac arrest.

Letting federalized teachers whip the daylights out of kids in school because they have religious beliefs opposed to certain teachings in the schools might make more drones for the Great Senseless Society, but it won't produce better kids and it will not enhance education. It won't stop school violence but it may increase it.

My mother and her siblings grew up in an environment where grandpa "ran the home" and he used a double razor strop to whip his frail daughters and one son. When granny tried to intercede on behalf of the kids to talk to them, grandpa would threaten her with "stay out of this, Emma, or else." That isn't being the man of the house ... it's being a brute. (As a side note, once granny got over being intimidated, she gave him "hail columbia" for the rest of his living days and told him over and over "I was too young and dumb to know I'd married a crazy man." She gave no quarter and spared no insult, but she did stay married. When he died, she shed no tears.)

My mother was dead-set against corporal punishment as the standard way of training children. She felt there were times it was needed, and I got a few wooden coathangers swatted across my back, but from as far back as any memories exist, mom first tried talking to me, then if I didn't get the point, she was good at intimidation. My dad didn't like me, my mother knew it, and would not let him lay a hand on me. Once, when I was 14, mama and I were having a somewhat heated discussion, and without warning he interfered long enough to backhand me across the jaw and send all 103 pounds of me sprawling across the living room floor and into a chair. Of course, this is the same dad who dumped mom and me in Arizona when I was in my early 20's, demanded a divorce, and went about his womanizing and the booze my mother wouldn't let him drink.

The school issue was never a concern when it came to corporal punishment. I went to California private schools, was a good student, corporal punishment was not applied. Rather, the headmistress of the school sent for the parents for a "conference" when the kids were a problem. At least I didn't have to be terrified of school ... and I do not like to be hit. There are some kids that people feel like blistering until they cannot sit down for a week, I've met them all through life, but look into their homes and generally the problem is readily discernible. Delinquent parents. Or just plain mean parents like my dad and my grandpa.

Bringing back corporal punishment into federalized schools allows for all sorts of options for teacher abuse. Race bias is one of them, and it exists. It also exists in the workplace, as I found out all too soon when I went to work for the State of Arizona in 1992 where Hispanics were favored. I have no doubt that kids whose parents are trying to bring them up with values of abstinence, a drug-free life, belief in God, and respect for proper authority would meet with some federalized teachers who would beat the daylights out of them at the slightest mention of any of these precepts. We're also talking about the same federalized system that calls it a crime in some states for parents to discipline their kids with a swat on the behind when they act up in the store.

Neither the school nor the government have the job of parenting children, and the parents of this nation should make sure they never do, because they are trying to do just that.

Now, before I start sounding like I've gone soft-headed on bringing up kids, I am a believer in discipline beginning at the earliest age. This idea that kids need to get in touch with their inner selves and be given free reign for all sorts of acting-out is nonsense only a new-age society would promote. Any parent with that philosophy isn't fit to bring up children anyway, and that seems to be the way "Taliban John" Lindh was allowed to express himself. Advice from the Spock of Star Trek would be better than the advice Dr. Spock gave in the 60's about how to let kids run wild and grow up without any respect for authority.

However, as nearly as I can tell from the reports that I receive from folks who have kids attending highly federalized schools and their battle to keep the kids from calling 911 at the slightest hint of discipline (where did kids five and six learn about that?) -- the first place to begin with corporal punishment is with delinquent parents, and the second place is with leftist teachers who instruct kids on their "rights" against home discipline.

Originally, public schools were there to educate children in specific courses such as language, spelling, arithmetic, history, civics, and other "school" subjects to prepare them for either college or the workplace. All other child-rearing was to be done at home. Living day in and day out in any home environment will, intentionally or unintentionally, transfer to the children the values modeled in the home. That's how we got the welfare dynasties. The values of society as reflected in the neighborhood in which kids are brought up will also transfer, which is why so many thoughtful parents today are trying to get out of the city and into areas where they can keep a closer eye on the kids, their friends, and what's being taught at school.

When we can't trust our government with our immigration policies, our Bill of Rights or even our Constitution, should we trust them with the children? I would say at this point the statement of former president Ronald Reagan applies to the highest degree: "government is not the solution to the problem, government IS the problem."

Amen?



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
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1 posted on 05/20/2002 9:54:04 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: Victoria Delsoul; tpaine; OWK; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Mercuria; MadameAxe; redrock; infowars...
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2 posted on 05/20/2002 9:54:35 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: Sir Gawain
bump for later
3 posted on 05/20/2002 9:57:16 AM PDT by tutstar
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To: Sir Gawain
When I was a kid, growing up in the 50's and 60's, I didn't worry about the paddling I might get at school. I worried about that one I knew I'd get when I got home, after my parents found out I got/needed one at school. Yes, it was a definite deterrent to any bad behavior at school.
4 posted on 05/20/2002 10:03:50 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: Sir Gawain
Corporal punishment in schools is a good idea. Government-run schools are a bad idea.
5 posted on 05/20/2002 10:06:16 AM PDT by Ol' Sparky
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To: Ol' Sparky
Corporal punishment in schools is a good idea.

Incorrect as a point of fact. Correct in so much as it is your opinion.

Government-run schools are a bad idea.

Correct

You got it half right.

6 posted on 05/20/2002 10:21:42 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
Liberal says, as Liberal does. He's more right than you'll ever know.
7 posted on 05/20/2002 10:53:37 AM PDT by Windsong
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To: Sir Gawain
The liberals told us that corporal punishment taught violence and if corporal punishment ended, it would help end violence in school.

They lied

Some kids react better to the threat of a paddle. I know we sure did. We all wore safety glasses in shop, even the kids who didn't care if they passed because the penalty was a lick in front of the whole class. And Coach Page used to play for the Dolphins.

8 posted on 05/20/2002 10:57:08 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Windsong
Liberal says, as Liberal does. He's more right than you'll ever know.

Please explain the "liberal" reference and after that please elighten me about what he correct about. (other than the half I already pointed out)

9 posted on 05/20/2002 11:01:11 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
The liberals told us that corporal punishment taught violence and if corporal punishment ended, it would help end violence in school.

They were as wrong as the others who told us that corporal punishment would solve the same problems.

You should have the right to send your children to schools where physical punishment is allowed. And I should have the same right to send my children to a school where my children are not touched physically, except by me. Since government schools are mandatory for those who do not have the resources to educate them privately it is a good thing that government employees are not given the right to touch children for purposes of "punishment".

10 posted on 05/20/2002 11:08:25 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
Since government schools are mandatory for those who do not have the resources to educate them privately it is a good thing that government employees are not given the right to touch children for purposes of "punishment".

If you send your child to a government school, you must live within the bounds of the school. If your child is disruptive, they will be punished in a manner decided by the school. If you don't like the method, you can remove your child.

Your child will be hit in school. That is guaranteed. The question is whether the attacker will be sufficiently deterred from hitting your child again. If you want to remove the consequences, that is your business. But your child will live with that deterrence. I would rather my son get paddled in school than beaten by his classmates. I have children in a public elementary school and their biggest complaint is lack of discipline by wimpy administrators.

11 posted on 05/20/2002 11:16:39 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
If you send your child to a government school, you must live within the bounds of the school.

That is precisely why government schools should be abolished. Particularly because the is no choice to opt out for some people. The attendance is mandatory even for people who do not have the resources to opt out.

If your child is disruptive, they will be punished in a manner decided by the school.

I don't know what state you live in but In Illinois, corporal punishment is forbidden and it has been since I was in elementary school in the 50s, probably before then. Rightfully so.

If you don't like the method, you can remove your child.

I thought I made it clear that we were talking about people without an option like that.

Your child will be hit in school. That is guaranteed. The question is whether the attacker will be sufficiently deterred from hitting your child again.

None of my three children has ever been hit in school. And they won't be because their primary education is now ended.

If you want to remove the consequences, that is your business. But your child will live with that deterrence.

See above comment.

I would rather my son get paddled in school than beaten by his classmates. I have children in a public elementary school and their biggest complaint is lack of discipline by wimpy administrators.

It's OK with me if you choose to have government employees physically touch your children, I do not choose that. I assume my own responsibilites, I do not cede them to anyone, certainly not government employees.

12 posted on 05/20/2002 11:30:29 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
Do you choose for your children to be forceably removed and banished from the school? Which is worse: paddling a child or forcing his parent to miss her work and cost the family money?

Your children were hit in school. You just don't know it. There is no way your kids went through 12 years of school and never got hit by anyone. That's ludicrous.

13 posted on 05/20/2002 11:35:19 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: ThomasJefferson
BTW you don't make sense. You don't believe in government schools BUT you believe in making rules for them. If you make rules for them, you obviously believe in them.
14 posted on 05/20/2002 11:36:54 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
Do you choose for your children to be forceably removed and banished from the school? Which is worse: paddling a child or forcing his parent to miss her work and cost the family money?

Thankfully those aren't the only two choices. PS....if I was forced to choose, which I am not, I would never opt to allow anyone to physically touch my children.

Your children were hit in school.

False

You just don't know it.

False

There is no way your kids went through 12 years of school and never got hit by anyone.

False

That's ludicrous.

If you have substantial funds to wager, I will accomodate you.

15 posted on 05/20/2002 11:42:15 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
How would you know if another child ever hit your child? Do they tell you every detail of their lives?
16 posted on 05/20/2002 11:43:25 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
BTW you don't make sense.

Funny, I was just thinking that about your comments.

You don't believe in government schools BUT you believe in making rules for them.

False. I merely recognise that they exist. Laws against anyone physically touching my children, except in self defense apply to all walks of life, not only schools. Laws permitting the suspension of my childrens rights (and mine as parent) have been passed by thugs many times though as exceptions to the natural rights which exist.

If you make rules for them, you obviously believe in them.

As I pointed out, I make no rules for them, I merely acknowledge that others have made exceptions on occasion to suspend the rights.

Rules haven't been made to support the right to not be physically accosted, they have been made to permit it as an exception. Those rules are an abomination.

17 posted on 05/20/2002 11:50:43 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
How would you know if another child ever hit your child? Do they tell you every detail of their lives?

Every important detail, such as assault, has been reported.

18 posted on 05/20/2002 11:52:02 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: Windsong
Are you here? I'm still waiting.
19 posted on 05/20/2002 11:52:59 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
So if a kid banged into your kid in the hall, they came home and told you?

You need another mirror, Alice.

20 posted on 05/20/2002 11:58:50 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
I have no problem giving my daughters a spanking when they need it but over my dead body will I give someone else the go ahead to do so.
21 posted on 05/20/2002 12:01:14 PM PDT by riley1992
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To: riley1992
If my son messes up, he will live with the consequences. I have yet to hear of a child dying from a spanking but I know plenty who died for lack of one.
22 posted on 05/20/2002 12:03:24 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
Tough. If my kids act up in school, the school can dole out normal punishment (i.e., detention, etc.) and I will handle any physical end that may be necessary. I have no idea why you would want to cede your job to strangers.
23 posted on 05/20/2002 12:07:42 PM PDT by riley1992
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To: AppyPappy
So if a kid banged into your kid in the hall, they came home and told you?

I said assault. Please don't slip down to the lowest denominator. It's beneath you.

You need another mirror, Alice.

This should also be beneath you.

If you want to make the wager, do it, otherwise you are just listening to yourself talk.

24 posted on 05/20/2002 12:08:15 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: riley1992
I have no problem giving my daughters a spanking when they need it but over my dead body will I give someone else the go ahead to do so.

Bump for self responsibility and common sense.

25 posted on 05/20/2002 12:09:57 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: riley1992
Because I'm not there. And many parents will not discipline their children and MY kids have to live with the little terrors.

A paddling is no big deal except to the kids who know they might get one. I would rather a child be paddled then sent home to an empty house where he can watch TV all day. Some punishment.

26 posted on 05/20/2002 12:12:00 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: ThomasJefferson
I'll bet you $10 million dollars. Now prove your kids were never hit.
27 posted on 05/20/2002 12:12:41 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
I'll bet you $10 million dollars. Now prove your kids were never hit.

Get your money up (a letter of guarantee from a major bank will do) and we will each show our respective evidence to an unbiased arbitrator. You can bring your "evidence". You say my kids have been assaulted, you have to prove it. No one can be asked to prove a negative, it's an old trick, but it won't work.

28 posted on 05/20/2002 12:22:26 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
No, you got it half right. Schools have the right to properly discipline students. Putting them in timeout or detention halls is a worthless punishment.

Spanking worked at home and in schools for decades. Liberals and liberaltarians don't understand the concept that strong punishment deters inappropriate or illegal behavior.

29 posted on 05/20/2002 12:24:05 PM PDT by Ol' Sparky
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To: AppyPappy
I would rather a child be paddled then sent home to an empty house where he can watch TV all day.

You don't get to make that choice for other people's children.

30 posted on 05/20/2002 12:24:06 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson; AppyPappy
You don't get to make that choice for other people's children.

You sure do, in a Village.

31 posted on 05/20/2002 12:27:55 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: ThomasJefferson
It will be right there. Wait on it.
32 posted on 05/20/2002 12:31:06 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: ThomasJefferson
The school makes the choice. I doubt many parents like the idea that Johnny gets suspended from school. What will you do if parents don't ever want their child punished?
33 posted on 05/20/2002 12:32:19 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: ThomasJefferson
You don't get to make that choice for other people's children.

Crack the knuckles of those little punks!

34 posted on 05/20/2002 12:32:49 PM PDT by Hacksaw
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To: Ol' Sparky
Schools have the right to properly discipline students.

"Properly" is the key word here. Touching my children physically is improper in that it violates their rights and mine. The person who violates their right to be secure in their persons will find out what the penalty for that is.

Putting them in timeout or detention halls is a worthless punishment.

That is your opinion, and it might even be true in whatever crappy schools your children attend. You have a right to send them where ever you choose.

Spanking worked at home and in schools for decades.

Spanking at home is not the topic of this thread. Physical violation by government employees is. This thread isn't even about private education.

Liberals and liberaltarians don't understand the concept that strong punishment deters inappropriate or illegal behavior.

I can't speak for either of the two groups you mention (off topic in any case) but I understand, and the person who physically violates my children will quickly learn the concept that strong punishment will be in store for them.

35 posted on 05/20/2002 12:32:54 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
It will be right there. Wait on it.

I knew you would see the silliness of that path.

36 posted on 05/20/2002 12:34:28 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
What will you do if parents don't ever want their child punished?

Where you got the idea that I don't believe in punishment is anyone's guess. This thread is about Physical punishment by government employees on children who's parents do not have the choice of private education.

37 posted on 05/20/2002 12:37:41 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
Because I'm not there.

You're not at home in the evening to discipline your child if need be?

And many parents will not discipline their children and MY kids have to live with the little terrors.

No, many parents will not discipline their children but you do not have the right to tell parents to accept someone other than themselves hitting their children. What you do have the right to do is remove your child and place him or her in a private school if the school where you child attends does not adequately handle behavioral problems with its students.

I would rather a child be paddled then sent home to an empty house where he can watch TV all day. Some punishment.

Why the jump from being whacked by a stranger to virtually no punishment at all in an empty home? Are you saying the only alternative to not hitting a student is to send them home to a house with no parent in it? That makes no sense.

38 posted on 05/20/2002 12:38:47 PM PDT by riley1992
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What the author of the article (and most people) miss is that each child is an individual and, more importantly, many children grow up without ANY real discipline being imposed at home.

Children are always testing the limits of acceptable behavior. They, on a deep non-conscious level, want and desire limits... the feeling that someone is watching and guiding them with loving care.

Kids respond to different things, so I'm not a "beat them all" guy. But if sweet reason isn't working and the kid knows that the worst thing that will happen is an ineffectual note back to dithering, hand-wringing parents, then the teachers lose all authority with that kid. There's been a few in my fiancee's classroom that the best she could hope for is if they just slept through class.

39 posted on 05/20/2002 12:39:40 PM PDT by WileyC
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To: Hacksaw
Crack the knuckles of those little punks!

General statement, hard to discern the meaning because of the lack of context.

I reserve the right to crack the knuckles of my children. I cede that right to no one.

40 posted on 05/20/2002 12:40:58 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
Why is paddling worse than sending a child home so that his mother loses her income to keep him at home and he gets behind in school? Is expelling a child better than paddling them?

You are gagging on a gnat and swallowing a camel.

41 posted on 05/20/2002 12:41:30 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: WileyC
Private schools would eliminate the problems raised by you in your post #39.
42 posted on 05/20/2002 12:43:17 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: riley1992
I am not at the school and the school does not tell me everything.

Let's use an example: My son was attacked by two students. The normal punishment is suspension but they couldn't suspend the children because the parents refused the suspension because they worked. They tried to take away their recess but the teachers didn't have anyone to watch them in the classroom. So they told the kids not to do it again and told my son to stay away from the kids. They attacked another student. Same treatment. The school has no real way of punishing kids. If you know any good methods, they would love to hear it.

43 posted on 05/20/2002 12:49:14 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
Why is paddling worse than sending a child home so that his mother loses her income to keep him at home and he gets behind in school? Is expelling a child better than paddling them?

Private education would make this a mute point. Each parent gets to make the choice of how their children are educated in a free society.

I choose to have other things happen which do not involve physical touching on my children. You are free to choose otherwise.

Perhaps you would like a system which would allow parents in government schools the ability to formally cede their parental rights to physical punishment to government employees on a person by person basis. Merely speculation.

You are gagging on a gnat and swallowing a camel.

I have no idea what this phrase means.

44 posted on 05/20/2002 12:49:53 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: AppyPappy
My son was attacked by two students.

This is called assault.

If you know any good methods, they would love to hear it.

It should be refered to the police for criminal action.

45 posted on 05/20/2002 12:53:34 PM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
You object to small things while ignoring the big things
46 posted on 05/20/2002 12:53:57 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Sir Gawain
Spare the rod - spoil the child! It was true in the 1700's and it's still true today.
47 posted on 05/20/2002 12:54:23 PM PDT by sandydipper
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To: AppyPappy
Okay, I have no idea if that was a hypothetical situation or not but assuming it wasn't, your child needs to be placed in a school that is able to function with some modicum of responsibility then. You cannot force others to parent their children the way you want them to (even though God knows we all wish we could at times). Your responsibilty is to your child and if that is the sort of school he is in, it should be your top priority to get him out.
48 posted on 05/20/2002 12:54:27 PM PDT by riley1992
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To: ThomasJefferson
The police don't care what happens in kindergarten.
49 posted on 05/20/2002 12:54:29 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: riley1992
No no no. I paid for that school. Why should I run away? It's not my fault it happened. It seems more logical to me that the school should fix the situation.
50 posted on 05/20/2002 12:56:05 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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