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Lying Is Cultural Trait Of Arabs, Says Barak
The Guardian (UK) ^ | 5-23-2002 | Brian Whitaker

Posted on 05/22/2002 8:24:29 PM PDT by blam

Lying is cultural trait of Arabs, says Barak

Brian Whitaker in Jerusalem
Thursday May 23, 2002
The Guardian

Palestinians have no compunction about telling lies and see truth as irrelevant, the former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak has claimed in an interview. "They are products of a culture in which to tell a lie... creates no dissonance," Mr Barak says. "They don't suffer from the problem of telling lies that exists in Judaeo-Christian culture."

"Truth is seen as an irrelevant category," he says."There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't. They see themselves as emissaries of a national movement for whom everything is permissible. There is no such thing as 'the truth'."

Interviewed by the Jewish historian Benny Morris for an article in the latest issue of the New York Review of Books, Mr Barak not only relates his comments about lying to Yasser Arafat in particular, but to Arab society in general.

He says: "The deputy director of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation once told me that there are societies in which lie detectors don't work, societies in which lies do not create cognitive dissonance [on which the tests are based]."

As an example of Mr Arafat's alleged mendacity, Mr Barak cites an incident in October 2000, shortly after the start of the intifada. The Israeli and Palestinian leaders, together with Madeleine Albright, the US secretary of state at the time, were meeting in Paris to discuss a ceasefire.

Mr Arafat had agreed to call a number of his police commanders to implement a truce.

Mr Barak recalls protesting: "'But these are not the people organising the violence. If you are serious, then call Marwan Bargouti and Hussein al-Sheikh [two West Bank Fatah leaders].'

"Arafat looked at me, with an expression of blank innocence, as if I had mentioned the names of two polar bears, and said, 'Who? Who?'

"So I repeated the names, this time with a pronounced, clear Arabic inflection... and Arafat again said, 'Who? Who?'

"At this, some of his aides couldn't stop themselves and burst out laughing. And Arafat, forced to drop the pretence, agreed to call them later."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: arabs; barak; lying; taqiyyalist
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1 posted on 05/22/2002 8:24:30 PM PDT by blam
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
"Truth is seen as an irrelevant category," he says."There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't.

Bears repeating over and over again.

3 posted on 05/22/2002 8:28:02 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: blam
Arabs do lie A LOT! And right out in the open, where they have to know they will get caught. Its really embarassing to watch.

Is there no prohibition in Islam against lying? Probably doesn't matter if you lie to an infidel.

4 posted on 05/22/2002 8:29:41 PM PDT by keithtoo
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To: blam
If I recall, there's an Arabic word that expresses the concept, but I don't remember it (fayyiq?)--not that Arabic culture condones lying (in fact, it deplores it); but lying to infidel is an acceptable breach of the duty to keep faith...sort of like lying to an axe murderer about where his intended victim went.
5 posted on 05/22/2002 8:29:43 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: blam
Newsflash. Glad he came out and said it on the record. Remiscent of the BillyBoy, for that matter...Bill Clinton--our first Arab President!
6 posted on 05/22/2002 8:32:07 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Pistias; choco taco
You're absolutely correct, Pistias, it's an Islamic doctrine/practice called taqiyya. Do a google search, choco taco.
7 posted on 05/22/2002 8:32:37 PM PDT by agrace
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To: blam
I seem to like ex-PM Barak a lot more than the PM Barak I remember.
8 posted on 05/22/2002 8:33:21 PM PDT by CanadianFella
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To: Choco Taco
Racist my stinking foot! He is dead on the money. I've known many people who have lived over in the Middle East in Egypt, Saidi Arabia, etc., and they all confirm this.
9 posted on 05/22/2002 8:34:14 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: blam
It took Ehud "Slobodan" Barak two years to discover the truth that Yasser Arafat is a natural born liar? Gee what planet was he living on when he was Prime Minister? How can you even reach agreements with people whose word you cannot trust them to keep? The fairy tale of Oslo exposed. And I don't exactly think Barak's fellow Labor Party leaders have heard this disclosure.
10 posted on 05/22/2002 8:34:18 PM PDT by goldstategop
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To: swarthyguy
"The Peace of Saladin" refers to the peace brokered by the Arab leader Saladin with the Crusaders. "Peace" to the Christians meant a cessation of hostilities, "peace" to an Arab meant a break before killing would begin again. It bought the Arabs time, and then they slaughtered and enslaved the Christians. Some people never learn from history.
11 posted on 05/22/2002 8:35:26 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: blam
He says: "The deputy director of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation once told me that there are societies in which lie detectors don't work, societies in which lies do not create cognitive dissonance [on which the tests are based]."

Not only societies, but individuals -- psychopaths (for example, Clinton), and their hired guns (for example, Carville). Ex-PM Barak may recognize those names.

12 posted on 05/22/2002 8:36:38 PM PDT by dighton
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To: AmericaUnited
Actually it fits the entire set of cultures in South Asia and the Middle East. Try doing business with the bastards.
13 posted on 05/22/2002 8:36:58 PM PDT by L`enn
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To: blam
Pretty common knowledge. "They" don't consider it lying. The goal is to get what they want and whatever it takes is OK. Especially if they are dealing with an infidel.

My uncle was all over the middle east in the 60's. I remember when I was a kid he said that the Arabs were "all crazy, all liars and all queers." And that someday "we would regret doing business with them". He also talked about how they had to pray 5 times a day, could only wipe their a$$es a certain way, etc.

Lying is part of Islam.

14 posted on 05/22/2002 8:37:01 PM PDT by isthisnickcool
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To: Choco Taco
"that your own ethnic group deems as negative."

I guess you don't see lying as being negative, eh?

15 posted on 05/22/2002 8:39:02 PM PDT by Kermit
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To: swarthyguy
bttt
16 posted on 05/22/2002 8:41:16 PM PDT by timestax
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To: blam
"Truth is seen as an irrelevant category," he says."There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't. They see themselves as emissaries of a national movement for whom everything is permissible. There is no such thing as 'the truth'."

Sounds like those congenital liars, Hildebeast and Slick.

17 posted on 05/22/2002 8:41:18 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: blam
Negotiating with an Arab is like trying to nail cigarette smoke to the wall.

Not only do they lie about things they have said in previous meetings, just for fun, they lie about things they just said. And then lie about their previous lies.

I would rather chew a jumbo roll of aluminum foil then try and negotiate anything with an Arab.

18 posted on 05/22/2002 8:43:17 PM PDT by Ronin
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To: Kermit
Lying isn't necessarily bad any more than telling the truth is--it depends on the circumstances. The classic example: your buddy loans you his shotgun. A week later he comes back drunk to the gills telling you his wife just divorced him, she's getting everything--house, business, savings, kids, all of it. Do you give him the gun back, or tell him you lost it?
19 posted on 05/22/2002 8:52:29 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Pistias
Whoops, forgot a sentence: comes back drunk to the gills demanding his shotgun back, loaded like he gave it to you.
20 posted on 05/22/2002 8:53:11 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: timestax;Ciexyz
"Truth is seen as an irrelevant category," he says."There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't." Mr Barak said in an interview today.

How it'll be reported in the Arab press, attributed to him and twisted around.

21 posted on 05/22/2002 8:54:29 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: blam
Maybe what you have to do is ask them if they swear by Allah it's the truth. That ought to give them pause.
22 posted on 05/22/2002 8:59:36 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: Pistias
BS!!!! You tell him he can't have it. Simple.
23 posted on 05/22/2002 9:01:13 PM PDT by FreeAtlanta
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To: blam; *Taqiyya List
Nice one.
24 posted on 05/22/2002 9:01:21 PM PDT by denydenydeny
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To: swarthyguy
Would that make Bill Clinton the first Arab President?
25 posted on 05/22/2002 9:03:03 PM PDT by Bernard
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To: L`enn
"Actually it fits the entire set of cultures in South Asia and the Middle East."

Yes it does. It isn't "racist", it isn't discrimination. It is a fact.

Amongst themselves, lies are expected. To a Westerner the duplicity of many cultures is hard to understand. To the ancient Eastern peoples, they are confused that we expect the truth. (sounds like democrats)

26 posted on 05/22/2002 9:04:59 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: Choco Taco
I suppose we shouldn't get discouraged, but judging from the negative responses to your post, (and many similar reponses polluting this forum) cluelessness is one of the characteristics of our own culture. Oy!
27 posted on 05/22/2002 9:08:08 PM PDT by Revolting cat!
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To: swarthyguy
"'Truth is seen as an irrelevant category,' he says. 'There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't.'"

Was he talking about the Democrat-Socialist-Communist-Utopian liberals?
28 posted on 05/22/2002 9:14:26 PM PDT by DennisR
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To: isthisnickcool
"he said that the Arabs were "all crazy, all liars and all queers." And that someday "we would regret doing business with them"."

Odd you said that. My late father had not a lick of prejudice in his bones. I grew up not having any fear of any color or ethnic group. I am thankful for this, because I also don't favor any group, even my own, Shanty Irish. However my Dad hated Arabs. A-rabs he called them even when corrected. I never knew why, he didn't say as he died when I was 17. However I am now beginning to get his drift.

29 posted on 05/22/2002 9:15:28 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: FreeAtlanta
Still lying, though--you promised you'd give it back, right?
30 posted on 05/22/2002 9:15:53 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: blam
He is absolutely CORRECT!

It is our Judeo-Christian values and mores that distinguishes the West and Israel from the Arabs.

31 posted on 05/22/2002 9:18:12 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot
Amen.
32 posted on 05/22/2002 9:20:49 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: swarthyguy
I'm reading "Peace To End All Peace" - a history of the Middle East from 1914 to 1922. A quote from a high-up in the British political structure - I believe his name was Steevens.....is of particular relevalance here:

"That child of the lie, the Arab.....

His accessment was made in 1915....and there are many similar utterances by those that had any dealings with Arabs back then. We are learning what our forefathers knew....all over again. However its taking us longer - they weren't hampered by Political Correctness!

33 posted on 05/22/2002 9:23:04 PM PDT by HardStarboard
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: McGavin999
Maybe what you have to do is ask them if they swear by Allah it's the truth. That ought to give them pause.

I don't see it that way...Allah as God is a lie, and that is their MAIN belief!

35 posted on 05/22/2002 9:33:29 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch
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To: Choco Taco
I had a teacher in hight school who had taught english at a boy's school in Iraq during the early sixties. He said that Arab culture was unique in that they were able to believe in two entirely contradictory statements or circumstances and believe both of them to be true or morally acceptable. The inablility to be truthful follows that cultural path.
36 posted on 05/22/2002 9:48:08 PM PDT by goody2shooz
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To: blam
So true!

I used to sell U.S. consumer goods to South America. Many of my clients were Syrian, Lebanese, and Iraqi migrants.

We kept what I called the "towel head" price list, twice list price , with the aim to settle on original list. It'd usually take two bottles of Johnny Black to get there (yes, my dear Muslim clients always had the best booze).

Now, the strategy wasn't contained to just them. For our Jewish clients, we had another list, called the... erh, well, we won't got there... anyway, it, too, started a bit higher from list. The difference was that it was presented as half-again as high, but with a 2-for-1 deal.

Our native's list price was always list. They we'd add 10, 20, 30 per cent on terms. They'd take anything at any price on credit.

And yes, I've heard plenty of stories about poor mothers and invalid sisters. This from mult-million dollar retailers. It was all so bloody silly.

The most difficult clients were the occasional Euros or Americans we encountered. They'd actually negotiate on reason and markets, not emotion. What a pain.

Oh, one other thing. My on-site partner was Syrian descent. He was the best salesmen I have ever known.

37 posted on 05/22/2002 9:48:54 PM PDT by nicollo
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To: all
Btw, if Bush brought anything with him from the oil business, he understands the market bazaar mentality of his Arab clients.

Listen to what he says, and watch what he does. Listen to what the Arabs say and what they do. Yes, you can believe in your President.

38 posted on 05/22/2002 9:59:02 PM PDT by nicollo
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To: nicollo
I spent about a year working on used car lots as a mechanic for Arabs, Jews and Pakistanis. It soured me on all three groups. They were all among the worst lying thieving bastards I have ever met. They would screw people over just as a matter of principle. Someone might have done them a good job at a fair price and they'd try to weasel out of paying them anyway.

I remember one of them sold an old fire engine once. The customer had given them his best offer, so the owner agreed, but insisted that he got to keep the siren and then had me go remove it. When I asked him why he wanted an old siren he told me that he didn't, but he just didn't want to sell the whole truck at that price. So far as I know that siren was tucked away on a shelf and never seen again. That was just the attitude they had towards the whole world. They weren't really happy unless they had given someone the shaft and the idea that someone might have ripped them off really burned them up inside.

39 posted on 05/22/2002 10:19:05 PM PDT by elmer fudd
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To: goody2shooz
Some say that Islam has been hijacked and all that. But i disagree. Islam is inherently evil in nature, or at the very least innately malignant.

There may be decent muslims in the world, after all not all of them have a mujahadin mentality that makes them seeth to destroy everything. HOWEVER it is a fact that Islam is a flawed religion. And that is the whole problem. And hence the whole premise of good muslims might be true, but Islam itself has a myriad of areas that just make someone go hmmm.... religion of peace humbug!

And why do i say this? The reasons are legion.

First of all no matter how you look at it Islam is a faith that tries to impose draconian ways of living on people. In islam you have to do this, and you have to say that, and woe betode you should you think in such and such a manner. Women are half-men (and if you doubt this then why do 2 women have to accuse one man of rape for the charge to be even taken seriously.... because, according to the Quran and parts of the Hadith, a woman is 'lesser' than a man). Also it is true that once a muslim always a muslim, and in the more Islamic regimes a person who converts to another faith risks his life. A female who becomes pregnant is to be 'burried to her head, and then the exposed parts are stoned.' And i know some ppl wil try to refute this, but it happens in most Islmaic countries under the Sharia Law, and there have been recent reports from Amnesty International reporting these activities (from rape victims being punished for 'seducing men to rape them,' to the stonings) all the way from Saudi Arabia to Nigeria.

Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion of submission. Actually that is what Islam means. Submission! You submit to your Imam, to your male relative, to the demagogue saying Israel needs to be destroyed. And that is why from Chechnya to the Balkans to Palestine to Pakistan there are hordes of people willing to take crazy suicidal action for their cause.... even when most are so ignorant and simple they cannot explain articulately what their 'cause' is.

It is simple brainwashing. And then they say it is a religion of peace.

And in all of history no faith has ever had such a seething mass of people willing to commit atrocities. Not even the Kali-Ma cults of India or the thugees.... and even christianity at its darkest (even when it was under control of the corrupt popes of the dark ages) never had most of its adherents baying for blood. Islam does.

Most of its adherents are either very acerbic, or confrontational at best. Discussion is hard without them taking it into some sort of fight, be it verbal or physical. And woe unto you if you question their faith. No discussion, no patience, no explanation.... simply trouble. I have tried to understand islam, and have asked some friends to explain it to me. And this was long before Sept 11. Yet you ask one 'but' and suddenly you are accused of being an infidel etc etc.

And so.... there may be lots of good muslims just looking to live out their lives in peace, but there are many more who for some reason seek to reak 'vengeance' on anyone and everyone. And islam is not a religion of peace.

Actually the final straw for me was when there was an Islamic rally in my native country of Kenya. If your history is well honed you will remember that is where UBL attacked in 1998 and killed 9 Americans, together with over 200 Kenyans! Yet there was a small group of Kenyan muslims demonstrating that UBL is their hero after the whole 9-11 thing! And yet UBL did not only kill innocents in NYC, he also killed hundreds of their fellow Kenyans. And by the way Kenya is 90% Christian, yet these small minority say the government should implement some Islamic principles! Islamic principles my foot! What principles does Islam have, unless you count deceit and having a facade that claims it is for peace when it just commits atrocities to those not of their faith, and violence toward their women!?!

I really hate sounding off like this because i view myself as being open to everyone and willing to lend an ear to all, however i am just tired about all these Islamic extremists. All I know sadly about Islam is marked with sadness, disbelief, and sheer unabated rage.

And it is darn hard to make me angry!

40 posted on 05/22/2002 10:29:22 PM PDT by spetznaz
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: spetznaz
I know what you mean. I worked with a man, an engineer, who had emigrated to the U.S. from Nigeria. He is a Christian and left because of the problems in his home country.

The problem as he saw it was that Islam strangles initiative by demanding conformance, killing anyone who is an independent thinker. Let them in and they will try to take over, subjugating everyone to their demands. In that they're just like fascists.

I never thought of Islam in terms of evil until recently. Any religion or nation that would pay families money for those families' children to commit suicide are, to me, truly evil. They have embraced despair and death over hope and life.

The pictures of the bombed embassy in Kenya was heartbreaking. I know it was cruelly done to try and turn Kenyans against Americans and to make us run back home. Well, we're not cowards and the colors red, white and blue don't run.

42 posted on 05/22/2002 10:58:57 PM PDT by goody2shooz
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To: blam
In California our state recognizes that lying is what they do as part of their culture.

When my sister was divorcing an Iranian (Praise God) she was telling the government person of all the problems with the truth this guy had. He lied everywhere in order to serve his purpose as said in the story.

The government employee said, "Well, lying is part of their country. They rarely tell the truth"!

Our state knows that, my sister was surprised and her jaw dropped to the ground.

43 posted on 05/22/2002 11:08:46 PM PDT by A CA Guy
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To: blam
"Truth is seen as an irrelevant category," he says."There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't. They see themselves as emissaries of a national movement for whom everything is permissible. There is no such thing as 'the truth'."

This explains why the Left loves them so.

44 posted on 05/22/2002 11:10:00 PM PDT by The Great Satan
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To: keithtoo
They can lie to infidels(non Muslims)
45 posted on 05/22/2002 11:16:02 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: Bernard
Why? Is Hillary his first cousin?
46 posted on 05/22/2002 11:18:41 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: blam
There is an old joke, it goes like this: The Arabs will lie to please. The English/Americans will lie to get out of trouble. The Russians will lie by habit.
47 posted on 05/22/2002 11:23:04 PM PDT by Red Jones
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To: blam
There is an old joke, it goes like this: The Arabs will lie to please. The English/Americans will lie to get out of trouble. The Russians will lie by habit.
48 posted on 05/22/2002 11:24:17 PM PDT by Red Jones
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To: Red Jones
It was funnier the first time.
49 posted on 05/22/2002 11:41:08 PM PDT by Chunga
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To: elmer fudd
I spent about a year working on used car lots as a mechanic for Arabs, Jews and Pakistanis. It soured me on all three groups. They were all among the worst lying thieving bastards I have ever met.

Some of us feel the same way about people calling themselves Elmer Fudd

50 posted on 05/22/2002 11:49:33 PM PDT by FreeReporting
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