[Festa]

The great "intellectual battle is between conservatives and libertarians. Conservatives (and some sects of libertarians) are traditionalists. They want to preserve what they consider the moral, just, and correct things about the past that make society so great.

This is why conservatism 1) means radicially different things in different country. A conservative in France (La Pen) is radically different in many ways from a conservative in the US 2) conservatism has no one ideology. We respect and adhere to many of the beliefs of the free market (not as often as I would like some times). But most of the time we do. We also adhere to the family structure, the institutions may they be religious, secular, or neither that make this country great.

Libertarians are purely freedom lovers. Many sects of libertarianism believe that people should be free to engage in their own actions so long as they do not impede on the actions of others. In other words, they should pay for the choices they make. To this is say, fine, right on brother! But I think they miss some major points

Libertarians are by far the most short tempered members of the right. More so than the christian coalition and the buchanan brigade. When a conservative says that he morally opposes drug use, out of wedlock marraige, etc (without even arguing that the state should intrude) they decry it as statist, collectivist, etc.

Fine, ok, I dont care. But as Friedrich Hayek, hardly an anarcho-capitalist libertarian, would say; the rule of law and the moral criticisms our society has MADE our society better.

Hayek realized that government law was one of only many ways in which society regulates itself. Morality can come from the criticism of society WITHOUT government intervention. It is precicely the "whatever floats your both" mentality that is driving this country further and further down the dark path towards socialism.

It is wrong to use drugs, it is wrong to have out of wedlock sex, it is wrong to have sex with a little boy or girl and sell it for profit on the internet. Whether or not the state is capable of outlawing or regulating this is another issue. But they are wrong. To say they are wrong does not mean you are a socialist. Merely, you recognize right from wrong.

If we stop criticizing people (uh hmmmm clinton) who do these things, we only lower the standards of our citizens and reduce them to the level of animals. You can be a classical liberal and still believe this.

What do you think?

[Tublecane]

I agree completely. I can admit that libertarians have a less compromised political position than mine, but they don't seem to recognize that because I'm comfortable with democracy working in state and local governments to regulate "some" areas of life that doesn't make me a statist. And like I've said before, only anarcho-capitalists and facists/communists have a pure ideology. Both common American conservatives and libertarians have a compromised position. We both balance government intrusion with liberty.
Libertarians want more freedom, and that's fine. I want less radical individualsim, and that *should* be fine as well. I can understand their fears, and I share most of them. Once government puts its foot in the door, it's almost impossible to go back. But still, we should at least try to prevent a slide into moral decay. Libertarians are right that eternal vigilance is needed and the threat of bigger government is always upon us. But do they not realize that they help foster relativism and radical individualism? Moral decay will ruin a society just as badly as intrusive government, in my opinion.