Posted on 05/25/2002 1:00:44 PM PDT by EggsAckley
I still find it awesome that there actually is a counseling service for abusive priests. I mean, that has to be funded by church monies, and for there to be a need for it implies that molesting priests may exist in a far greater number than we know even now.
No pity for Priests who sexually abuse kids here either.
But I disagree with your claim that suicide is the "ultimate sin" with "no chance for repentance or forgiveness."
Jesus said that the only sin for which men cannot be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus ALL other sins can be forgiven.
The idea that people have to specifically repent of every sin they have ever committed in order to be forgiven is a fallacy addressed by Martin Luther in the Reformation.
By the way, you're welcome.
Thank you.
Sounds like you've bought and read your copy of "Goodbye! Good Men". It is a real eye opener and a must read for anyone interested in why the Catholic Church is in the current crisis it is in. BTW, I am happy to report that both "Borders" and "Barnes and Noble" are carrying the book in hardcover. I found it in the Christianity section - but I took a bunch of copies in both stores and put them on the front of the store racks. ;-)
I think most Catholics would be happy with a temporary shortage of priests if the ousting of the homosexual ones causes that. What we would reap in terms of entering orthodox Catholic priests would be worth the temporary pain. All of the orthodox seminaries are overflowing with candidates, while the liberal, homosexual catering ones are ordaining very few, which I guess is a blessing, but unfortunately, lots of worthy candidates are lost because most cannot take the atmosphere in such seminaries.
"pretty high"???? Sounds like a pretty small number over that many years. There are probably more plumbers, lawyers, hamburger joint owners, engineers, doctors, nurses, welfare workers, government employees, policemen or firemen commiting suicide in this country every 6 months. So, why hammer just prists? I assume they killed themselves because of their embarrassing their church.
Imagine you're a priest's victim of molestation. How many of those victims committed suicide?
What gets me is the mainstream Catholics who can't find the brass to even feign a little token outrage. They sit there and say, "Well, he's a well-meaning guy who took a wrong step. He didn't really do anything all that bad." And the church spending millions of dollars settling lawsuits doesn't seem to bother a lot of these people, either. Their behavior is positively Clintonesque.
If I were a Catholic, I would be kicking the senior clergy in the ass and be tasking them to fix this right now instead of lying, slow-rolling, and minimizing the situation.
I think many like myself are just dancing on the graves of their removal from the world, not their 'possible eternal damnation'. That's something to celebrate! I'd think that someone so 'swave and deboner' as yourself would recognize that.
How about for both the victims and the perps? Isn't that the Christian thing to do?
[N.B. I write the following not as an attack on the Catholic church but rather to point out that God is exposing HYPOCRISY in *both* the Catholic and Christian churches. None of this is quoted to 'dance on anyone's grave' but rather to point out God judges every man according to his works (Mt. 16:27) and if they are bad, there are eternal negative consequences. If each person judged himself and corrected his behavior, he would need no one to judge him.]
This is God's Word on it:
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Buggering little boys and molesting parishioners is a sign of bad fruit which indicates one will not inherit everlasting life:
Bad fruit: Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Hey, look at that. And they that are NOT Christ's have NOT cruicified the flesh with the affections and lusts. This is pretty conclusive as well:Good fruit: Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Let's go further...
Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know* them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know* them.
Mt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known* by his fruit.
Know/Known = perceived, identified by, understand.
I could go on and prove by scripture that God will not have pity on those who do these things, but this post is long enough.
We can not judge that just because someone commits suicide that they go straight to hell. I had an experience with this and the priest I talked with told me that how could I know what went through the person's (suicidee) mind just as they pulled the trigger, took the pills, etc. They might ask for forgiveness and tell God that they know they have other choices but that this one is the one that makes the most sense.
In short, we can not judge; only God can do that.
Suicide is self-murder. The Bible says: There hath no temptation[testing] taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 1Co 10:13.
People who do not believe the above are therefore unbelievers at that moment and are lacking in faith. See "evil heart of unbelief" here: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:12.
In short, it is unwise to self-murder yourself because you will reap the rewards of same.
>In short, we can not judge; only God can do that.
Jesus/Yeshua said: Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
"Don't judge" is false doctrine or at least twisted from its original meaning. It has been poured onto the apostate masses to deceive them into tolerating sin in their own lives and others' lives as they go happily down the broad way to destruction. The Bible says Ye shall know them by their fruit and make righteous judgment and there is no way to do either without judging which may be just a matter of observing fruit/works/deeds.
The Bible also says that if a man will examine (judge) himself, he would need no man to judge him. It is precisely because people don't judge that a lot of problems result. Wise followers of the Lord depart from inquity, purify themselves and walk in holiness, being perfected and conformed to the image of Jesus ChristYeshua, not the image of the world. They are in effect getting the bean out of their own eye so they can see clearly. When they are perfected, they can more readily judge what is imperfect, by the Word and the Holy Spirit. If a person is a true believer, he or she will be in this process of being conformed and will stop sinning. If he does not, he opens himself to attack by the devil:
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Nevertheless, we don't condemn others, but rather point them to the Lord and say "Hear Him!" and if they do "Hear Him!" the Lord will point to their sin and convict them of the sins from which they should repent. True believers are regularly met by people who say, "Don't judge," because the accusers do not judge themselves and know that if others did judge them righteously, that their sin of hypocrisy would be apparent.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
by Bob EnyartAn absurd question has stymied the Church. Should Christians judge?
Of course believers should judge. To not judge is to be indecent, not to mention inhuman. The only kingdom in which there is no judging is the plant kingdom. For of living things, vegetables do not judge. In the animal kingdom, though, judgment is a must, and members of the Kingdom of God must do the most judging.
Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they "judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) and He praised a man who "rightly judged" (Luke 7:43). Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because there was no one among them willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1Cor. 2:15-16).
The notion that judgment is wrong is a ludicrous one. Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? Should we call evil good? Or would that be a judgment too?
"Judge not" is the prayer of those who want to hide light under a basket. The cliché describes salt which has lost its flavor, which no longer seasons or preserves. Those seduced by this terrible lie are taken out of the game. As spectators on the sidelines, they only watch the spiritual battle. But they are in a comfort zone. Apathy is the craving. "Judge not" is the mantra for shirking responsibility.
Borrowing characters from C. S. Lewis, imagine this dialogue between a junior demon named Wormwood and his wicked uncle Screwtape. This fiendish exchange could have occurred a century ago.
Wormwood: Believers have so many weapons at their disposal. It is difficult to neutralize them. It takes a huge effort just to slow the work of a single Christian.
Screwtape: Your one-on-one approach is inefficient. This is the age of Madison Avenue and mass marketing. If you can undermine their whole group at once, then you’ve accomplished something.
Wormwood: Unfortunately, I’m not highly productive. In the time it takes me to frustrate one believer, I could be tempting a dozen heathens.
Screwtape: Don’t lose heart, Wormwood. We are implementing a plan to impair the whole Church with a single ploy.
Wormwood: I don’t see how that will be possible. The Christians that I’ve seen are dedicated to warning others about hell. It’s all I can do just to get one of them distracted for a short time.
Screwtape: We are going to use their Leader’s own words.
Wormwood: No! Please don’t. Don’t even joke about using His words. I can’t take it.
Screwtape: If you’re ever going to grow up to be an effective demon, you’re going to have to learn to use the Enemy’s words against Him.
Wormwood: It just seems so dangerous. Which words are you going to use?
Screwtape: "Judge not!"
Wormwood: I don’t understand why He would tell them not to judge. That’s confusing. He commanded His followers to rebuke, admonish and judge hundreds of times in His Book. And that’s what they’re out there doing. And I might add, it’s causing me no end of grief.
Screwtape: When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. "Judge not… you hypocrite," as He said later in the same paragraph.
Wormwood: Yeah, but how are we going to use "Judge not" to neutralize the whole Church?
Screwtape: We are going to get them to ignore the fact that He was talking to hypocrites. He said that hypocrites should not judge, at least not until they stop doing the wrong deed themselves. But we are going to make them think that none of them should judge.
Wormwood: That’s brilliant… if you can pull it off, that is. I mean, if we can get them to stop judging, then they won’t rebuke the wicked. And they won’t be able to admonish those who are sexually immoral.
Screwtape: It is even more brilliant than you realize. If we can seduce Christians into following the instructions for hypocrites, we will turn them into hypocrites. It’s like government workers who follow foolish rules so precisely they are transformed from human beings into bureaucrats; drones who mindlessly dispense red tape regardless of the misfortune they cause. The slave who willingly obeys his master, begins to conform to the master. If believers willingly submit to an instruction for hypocrites, they will conform to hypocrisy. Eventually, with a little evil luck, we might stop them from confronting unbelievers altogether because, as you know Wormwood, to confront requires judging. And if they don’t judge unbelievers, they are hypocrites, professing the Gospel but denying its power.
Wormwood: Ha, ha. I’m excited. When do we start?
Screwtape: Everything is underway already. Just do your part.
Wormwood: And that is…?
Screwtape: Make sure your targets read as little of the Book as possible. Don’t get too worried if they stick to their favorite twenty cliché verses. But make sure they remain ignorant of most of the Word.
Wormwood: Master, you are brilliant.
Screwtape: You can call me Master if you want, but don’t let the boss hear you.
A lie paralyzed the Church. To abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. God instructs men against "hypocrisy" commanding them to "abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9). Thus, unable to judge, and unaccustomed to abhorrence, Christians en masse become hypocrites when they obey the Hypocrites Golden Rule. For "judge not" (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged" (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged. Therefore the hypocrite does not judge. As Jesus said, "Judge not… you hypocrite" (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52).
Christ kept this theme throughout His ministry. "Hypocrites," Jesus said, "why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?" (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye" (Mat. 7:5). "Judge Not" is the Hypocritical Oath.
"Judge Not" is hypocrite haven. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Such Christians, though, should relocate. Move into "the temple of the great God, which is being built with heavy stones" (Ezra 5:8).
Christians live in the "building" for which Christ is "the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it "will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). It is better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.
Scripture deals with topics which range from simple to advanced truth. There is the milk which is for babes in Christ, but the meat is for men of God. The question of whether or not Christians should judge is milk. It is preschool. The newest believer discipled with any of a hundred passages would immediately understand that he must judge. Judging others is fundamental. It is not a difficult concept and should in no way be controversial.
"Everyone who partakes only in milk is unskilled in the Word of righteousness, for he is a babe" (Heb. 5:13). The Church today, however, has trouble even with milk.
Extreme ignorance of the Bible has crippled the Church. And that crippling is obvious in virtually every denomination, and in almost all local fellowships. What is the percentage of Christians who have succumbed to the "Judge not" deception? Is there even one percent of believers who have not fallen for that diversion? Surely it seems that at least 99 out of 100 are guilty of either not rebuking someone for misquoting Jesus, or of repeating the mindless "Judge not" themselves. Believers need to turn from this sin and ask God for wisdom to keep from being so easily deceived again.
Curse God and die!
Is that good advice? Word for word, it is in the Bible. Job’s wife counsels her husband to "Curse God and die" (Job 2:7). Many verses, if ripped out of context, can ruin lives. Judas "went and hanged himself" (Mat. 27:5) and as Jesus said "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). The believer who lacks a hunger for God’s word is susceptible to the most absurd dangers.
A letter to the Rocky Mountain News in October 1996 about a murderer who killed two priests expressed a typical judge-not sentiment. The writer advocated incarceration and opposed execution because even the murderer is made "in the image of God" and it would be "wrong to put the image of God to death." The ‘hypocrite’ (used technically) who wrote the letter should have admitted a similar incongruity in putting the image of God in jail. But alas, muddled thinking never gets that far.
Are members of the Body of Christ today less capable than Israel whom God commanded to "judge righteously" (Deut. 1:16-17; Lev. 19:15)? Moses appointed the head of one out of every ten households as a judge (Ex. 18:25; Deut. 1:15). Should Christians look down upon the entire book of Judges? Should America eliminate all judges, or should just the Christian judges resign? Should believers ignore Paul’s admonition? For he wrote:
"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?" (1Cor. 6:2-5).
Notice that Christians "will judge the world!" (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, "if the world will be judged by you…" God is the Judge of all the world who will delegate that judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" Then and now, believers should "judge... according to My judgments" (Ezek. 44:24) as God said. The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4, 1 Tim. 5:24). This teaching is ancient for as Enoch, the seventh from Adam, said, "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all" (Jude 14-15).
Jesus too said, "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it..." (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, "jealously is a husband's fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased..." (Prov. 6:34-35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation and judgment to His servants for "every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord…" (Isa. 54:17).
Today, many believers are effectively saying, "Lord, thanks but no thanks. I’ll pass on that judgment stuff." But Paul responds, "Start judging now, because you will need the practice" (1Cor. 6:2-5). Remember, "he who is spiritual judges all things. For... we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15-16). And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work: "Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them." (Prov. 24:25).
Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24). Like Don Quixote tilting at windmills, though, Christians battle an enemy that means them no harm, their inclination to judge.
Hopefully the Church will see Judge Not headed for retirement replaced with Judge Rightly.
BTW...my neck may be red, but it gets that way from working in the sun. I guess that makes me an automatic honorary redneck doesn't it.
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