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Abortion Protesters Use Cameras, Raise New Legal Issues, Lawsuits
The Wall Street Journal ^ | Tuesday, May 28, 2002 | YOCHI J. DREAZEN

Posted on 05/28/2002 7:10:25 AM PDT by TroutStalker

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:46:33 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

DENVER -- As soon as he saw the blue minivan turning into the parking lot of Planned Parenthood's small abortion clinic here, Kenneth Scott grabbed his digital camera, clambered up his rickety metal ladder and started snapping pictures.

"You'll have nightmares about this day the rest of your life," he bellowed, photographing the blond woman gingerly leaving the minivan. Then he turned his camera to her escort. "Your sin won't be hidden or forgotten," he screamed.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion
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To: jlogajan
"You self-rigtheous holier-than-thou types think you own the only possible definition. Well, you don't."

Ok! How many cells before we have a human? You make the call!

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048......2^x-power?

All the instructions are in the first cell.

51 posted on 05/28/2002 10:59:48 AM PDT by Wurlitzer
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To: TroutStalker
Dumb tactic.

All it will take is one mistaken photo on the site, some picture of a woman who is not involved with the clinic, to shut this guy down and bankrupt him. ASMOF, the pro-aborts should do exactly that--send in a pic of a woman going into any doorway, claiming that she's an abortion seeker, letting the webster post it, then suing the webster for libel.

Better ways. I personally love the city-to-city trucks with the side ads show first trimester fetuses. Now THAT shows some real organization and nerve~~

52 posted on 05/28/2002 11:01:06 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: VRWC_minion
VRWC, you didn't read my post did you? Please read it again re: doctors. And you, who claim to have accepted Christ, then go and blame pro-lifers (the majority of whom are Christians) for hating? Hmm.
53 posted on 05/28/2002 11:01:26 AM PDT by =Intervention=
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To: jlogajan
But it's 100% more risky to the defenceless little baby that just want's to be born.
54 posted on 05/28/2002 11:03:16 AM PDT by chiefqc
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To: jlogajan
You jumped to quickly to square number two. Forget "re-defining." Start with "defining." You are smuggling an assumption that YOU own the original definition. Prove it.

OK, back on square one you used the word "human" twice in the phrase, "...when a human becomes a human...", which grammatically speaking, produces the incoherent and unintelligible corollary that there can be a human being who is not a human being. It is self-contradictory and self-refuting.

Cordially,

55 posted on 05/28/2002 11:04:32 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: jlogajan
That's wrong and you know it. The women having their picture taken are not haters in any imaginable sense of the word. The simply do not agree with you about the definition of when a human becomes a human. That is a reasonable thing to disagree about.

No, it is these sort of self-righteous haters who can tolerate no disagreement -- who only seek to bring harm to those they disagree with.

I feel sorry for the women who have to face these hate mongers. It is very sad that hate mongers like this exist.

Couldn't agree with you more!

56 posted on 05/28/2002 11:10:42 AM PDT by Bump in the night
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To: =Intervention=
What is our Christian duty ?
57 posted on 05/28/2002 11:13:13 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Bump in the night
Yup. It's an awful, terrible thing to have folks praying for you and trying to dissuade you from murder. Gotta stop that free speech stuff right now! No free speech around abortuaries! Civil liberties people will all see the light and support this position in the end, right? I mean we all know that you're not allowed to have free speech when it really counts, right?
58 posted on 05/28/2002 11:14:49 AM PDT by =Intervention=
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To: VRWC_minion
First, be truthful. Don't go around spreading falsehoods about your brothers and sisters.
59 posted on 05/28/2002 11:15:34 AM PDT by =Intervention=
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To: catonsville
Let's also put cameras in front of all the strip clubs and gay joints in every town in America, than show the pictures of the customers on the internet.

There already are feminists and angry wives who are photographing customers and IDing cars at strip joints and posting said information on the web.

60 posted on 05/28/2002 11:15:49 AM PDT by weegee
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To: =Intervention=
First, be truthful. Don't go around spreading falsehoods about your brothers and sisters.

Spread gospel.

61 posted on 05/28/2002 11:18:09 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Diamond
Perhaps he thinks a human "becomes human" when it is self-sufficient.

...around age 2 maybe when the little buggers can run around, feed themselves, etc.

A newborn infant will die without intervention (feeding and "upkeep").

62 posted on 05/28/2002 11:18:37 AM PDT by weegee
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To: jlogajan
"That is a reasonable thing to disagree about."

Only if your idol is Dr. Joseph Mengele.


63 posted on 05/28/2002 11:19:15 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: jlogajan

64 posted on 05/28/2002 11:19:50 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Bump in the night
Why not mercy?
65 posted on 05/28/2002 11:21:32 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: nanny
You cannot have a 'difference of opinion' where killing is concerned. We have shaded so many wrongs in this society, soon nothing will be wrong.

I don't think it's a difference of opinion where KILLING is concerned. It's more like a difference of opinion about WHEN LIFE BEGINS. Apparently, some people believe that a single cell is life and it would be wrong to kill it. Others believe that a single cell is not the equivilent of a human being. Those that are anti-abortion view what is being aborted as a life. Those that are pro-choice do not view it as a life.

66 posted on 05/28/2002 11:21:40 AM PDT by Bump in the night
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To: TroutStalker
I just checked out their website and (again) came to the conclusion that as long as these nutcases are what the public perceives as the pro-life movement then no progress will ever be made. Takes about 30 seconds on the webpage to run into some fundemantalist Christian ranting, and about 45 seconds to find the lovely statement "Arrest Homosexuals".

IMHO these people do more damage to the pro-life movement than anyone else by driving anyone remotely moderate away.
67 posted on 05/28/2002 11:21:50 AM PDT by Economist_MA
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To: VRWC_minion
What is our Christian duty ?

If we knew that you were about to be carried into a building to be attacked by a knife-wielding assailant, what would you have us do?

Cordially,

68 posted on 05/28/2002 11:23:49 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: jlogajan
That's wrong and you know it. The women having their picture taken are not haters in any imaginable sense of the word. The simply do not agree with you about the definition of when a human becomes a human. That is a reasonable thing to disagree about.

It's not about hate. It's about right and wrong and what America stands for.

Women having their pictures taken generally know when life begins. That's why the most potent weapon in the abortion debate is a sonogram. In a pro-life clinic, the imaging screen is turned toward the mother and she is shown the features of the baby her body is nurturing. In the abortion clinic the imaging screen is turned away from the mother and she is told there really is no baby. But if you let her look at it herself, usually she will decide not to abort. Of course, such informed consent is dangerous to the abortion mill cash-cow.

But, regardless of all this, there is no hate for the protestor toward the mother. Toward the doctor, perhaps, but not the mother. And the mother doesn't hate the protestor, although she wishes he weren't there to cause the pain. The press does, perhaps, but not the mother. Shalom.

69 posted on 05/28/2002 11:24:54 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: ArGee
Hello, old friend. ;)
70 posted on 05/28/2002 11:27:03 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: jlogajan
Not only is it a reasonable belief that a small clump of cells is NOT a human in any meaningful sense -- any other claim is a matter of religious faith ONLY. So yes, there is a very REASONABLE basis to disagree on the morality or immorality of abortion.

Gotta agree.

71 posted on 05/28/2002 11:27:19 AM PDT by Bump in the night
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To: Diamond
, what would you have us do?

Convert me before I die.

72 posted on 05/28/2002 11:27:46 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Bump in the night
Why not mercy?
73 posted on 05/28/2002 11:28:05 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: jlogajan
a small clump of cells is NOT a human in any meaningful sense

Then what is it? A frog? A cow? A flower?

74 posted on 05/28/2002 11:28:23 AM PDT by geaux
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To: Diamond
If we knew that you were about to be carried into a building to be attacked by a knife-wielding assailant, what would you have us do?

What makes you think that "taking a picture" is a reasonable answer to your question? These people are all about senseless symbolism and making themselves feel better. Or they are plain stupid.... or both.
75 posted on 05/28/2002 11:28:54 AM PDT by Economist_MA
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To: geaux
And they put her into a minivan instead of calling an ambulance because.....?

Obvious answer? Because they didn't want photos of an ambulance in front of an abortion clinic.

Sarcastic answer. The neighbors complained about the noise from all of the ambulance calls to the abortion clinic. < /sarcasm >

There was a minor who died in Houston a few years back from internal bleeding. She had a legal abortion and kept her parents in the dark. We hear about how many women would die from "illegal" abortions if the law changes but I don't ever see published stats on how many woman die from legal abortions.

Minors can't even get ears pierced (let alone surgical procedures) without a parental permission. The culture of death makes their own rules.

76 posted on 05/28/2002 11:29:11 AM PDT by weegee
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To: VRWC_minion
But you are right, hate is too strong. They dislike the life they are carrying so strongly they wish to terminate its existance and are self-righteous when anyone might possibly disagree with them.

Sometimes this does describe the mother, but often it does not. 80% of the mothers are caught in a trap. Interestingly for the pro-choice crowd, she usually feels she has no choice. She has been told by men that there is nothing wrong with her allowing herself to be used as a sexual toy by a man. When she gets pregnant, and the man realizes that this could lead to an emotional, or at least a financial committment, he convinces her that she is only exercising her rights when she kills the child that might cause him a problem. He manipulates her and emotionally abuses her.

If she can get to someone who cares, someone at an abortion alternative center, for example, they can help her to see how she has been used, then acheive the strength to make her own decision. If she goes to someone who makes a living by selling death to her unborn child, she has no help.

Don't blame the mothers. Sometimes they deserve it, but often they do not.

Yes, I have my flame-retardant underwear on to protect me from all the strong women on FR who have no regrets about their abortions and were never, ever, under any circumstances, coerced.

Shalom.

77 posted on 05/28/2002 11:29:41 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: Bump in the night
Is the clump of cells human? Yes, otherwise the woman wouldn't be pregnant. Have mercy on the innocent and defenseless.
78 posted on 05/28/2002 11:29:53 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: weegee
My point is that ontologically it doesn't make sense, literally, to speak of when a human becomes a human. It wouldn't matter what object we were talking about. It would be just as self-contradictory to speak of an orange becoming an orange, because an orange cannot be an orange and not be an orange at the same time.

Cordially,

79 posted on 05/28/2002 11:33:09 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: mondonico
It may be legal, but seeing the pictures of these poor women made me sad and a little ashamed of intruding on them.

Maybe you could pray for them. They certainly need it.

If they started posting the addresses, you could send a card expressing your concern and telling them of your prayers.

Shalom.

80 posted on 05/28/2002 11:33:11 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: ArGee
If she can get to someone who cares, someone at an abortion alternative center, for example, they can help her to see how she has been used, then acheive the strength to make her own decision. If she goes to someone who makes a living by selling death to her unborn child, she has no help.

That seems a pretty reasonable statement to me. I fail to see though how the actions of the pro-life activists described in the article are geared towards bringing any women to an abortion alternative center, or in fact towards anything remotely constructive.
81 posted on 05/28/2002 11:34:00 AM PDT by Economist_MA
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To: catonsville
Let's also put cameras in front of all the strip clubs and gay joints in every town in America, than show the pictures of the customers on the internet.

I believe that is being done. Not outside of all of them, but one or two of them. I read about it here on FR.

Shalom.

82 posted on 05/28/2002 11:36:17 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: JMJ333
You want to change the definition because you think it is okay to discard human life if it happens to get in the way of free sex.

I keep seeing this "free sex" thing on this thread. I'm lost. What does "free sex" have to do with abortion? Not everyone that receives an abortion got pregnant by having wild orgies and unprotected sex with multiple unknown partners. I know someone that got pregnant who had been married for years, didn't want children, used a condom and spermicide and got pregnant anyway. Wild "free sex" people, as you call them, are not the only ones who need or get abortions.

83 posted on 05/28/2002 11:37:12 AM PDT by Bump in the night
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To: VRWC_minion
It was many years later that I accepted Christ and found that scripture is actually silent on the issue.

Directly, but not indirectly.

Shalom.

84 posted on 05/28/2002 11:37:32 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: jlogajan
You self-rigtheous holier-than-thou types think you own the only possible definition. Well, you don't.

What definition do you posit?

Shalom.

85 posted on 05/28/2002 11:40:24 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: Economist_MA
...and about 45 seconds to find the lovely statement "Arrest Homosexuals".

Actually a number of states still prohibit homosexualy relations. Here in Texas a gay couple conspired to try to get it struck down in the courts (rather than appeal to legislators to change it). They set up a goofy deal where they had sex with the front door unlocked, the neighbor called 911 to report the sounds of "an assault" going on next door, and police entered to see a homosexual act in progress and dutifully cited the men as being in violation of the law. The judge didn't buy it.

Funny thing is that even though homosexual acts are outlawed, the city of Houston tried to extend "same-sex partner" benefits to city workers. Seems to me that they are approving of law-breakers. Same with the school programs to teach about homosexuality. They are educating future law-breakers on the techniques.

86 posted on 05/28/2002 11:40:44 AM PDT by weegee
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To: litany_of_lies
I fail to see how this advances the pro-life cause, or how anyone will be persuaded to be pro-life as a result of these out-of-control tactics. It will only serve to harden hearts.

I thought the same thing. I don't think that this tactic is going to change anyone's mind about abortion. To those that are pro-choice, I think it only makes the pro-life people look like jerks. It won't help the cause.

87 posted on 05/28/2002 11:41:17 AM PDT by Bump in the night
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To: TroutStalker
Wow! The courts will shut these guys down before you can say "Jack Robinson".
88 posted on 05/28/2002 11:41:30 AM PDT by Zeroisanumber
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To: Bump in the night
Free sex is where the majority of abortions originate. People want to be able to have sex without any consequences, hence the need for contraception. Contraception fails and so then an innocent and defenseless life is needlessly and violently killed--out of selfishness and the shirking of responsibility.

There is onlt several days out of the month in which a woman is fertile. Abstain from the time a woman is fertile and prevent an unwanted pregnancy. That is what I am arguing for--the waste of life caused by selfish abhorrent behavior---that...and to beg for mercy on those who don't deem worthy of life because they have only been in existance a few weeks.

89 posted on 05/28/2002 11:43:20 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: =Intervention=
then the only person here that has given evidence of being self-righteous is you.

Give that man a kewpie doll.

Three hypocricies on FR that really gripe my cookies:

  1. When people self-righteously accuse me of being self-righteous.
  2. When people try to force their morality on me by telling me that I am wrong to try to force my morality on them.
  3. When people who believe they are right accuse me of believing I am right.
Shalom.
90 posted on 05/28/2002 11:46:47 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: weegee
a number of states still prohibit homosexualy relations.

Most (all?) of these states actually prohibit "sodomy", which by its standard definition includes many heterosexual practices which anyone who has a moderately interesting sexlife should experience on a regular basis. Let'snot start a discussion about the basis or lack thereof with which the state tries to legislate bedroom behavior between consenting adults, there are plenty other threads on FR to do this.
91 posted on 05/28/2002 11:47:28 AM PDT by Economist_MA
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To: JMJ333
Abstain from the time a woman is fertile and prevent an unwanted pregnancy. That is what I am arguing for

So anyone who has counted the days and still got pregnant can have an abortion? And why is counting days any better than simply taking the pill? Are differences in failure rates what you base your argument on?
92 posted on 05/28/2002 11:49:49 AM PDT by Economist_MA
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To: weegee
That's one of the biggest problems I have with the abortion issue -- pro-choicers have to lie to maintain the public's acceptance. They don't want anyone to know that, despite the fact that abortion is legal, it's still a dangerous procedure. So, clinics refuse to call ambulances. Sometimes, a clinic will not bring the woman to the hospital, opting instead to attempt treatment in the clinics, despite the fact that they don't have the proper equipment. The public never hears about the injuries and deaths that occur in these clinics to the women who seek their services, and so, the public continues to believe, erroneously, that abortion is safe.

They also lie to the woman during the examination, telling her that they cannot determine the sex of the child, or telling her that she's not as far along as she originally thought, or that she does not have twins. They do not let her see the sonogram. Therefore, women, especially those who would be prone to change her mind if she knew everything about the status of her pregnancy, are duped into undergoing the abortion.

They also lie about the reasons women have abortions. It's not because of rape, incest, life of the mother, or a severely deformed child. It's the "Ooops" factor -- young, unmarried women "had an accident" that "needed to be taken care of."

Leaving religion out of it, nobody who is intellectually honest with themselves can support the pro-choice movement. It requires amazing mental gymnastics to justify their cause.

93 posted on 05/28/2002 11:50:30 AM PDT by geaux
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To: Wurlitzer
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048......2^x-power?

I heard a French cellular biologist on the radio one time. I can't recall his name. He was an atheist but believed that life began at conception. He told the interviewer that cells in an embryo don't go 1-2-4-8-16-... but 1-2-3-4-8-16... He could not explain why the 3, but it is always there.

He then went on to explain that if he caught the embryo (zygote?) at only two cells, he could remove one cell, replace it with a cell from another embryo, and the two cells would continue to grow as one organism. However, once the embryo had achieved the three cell stage this was no longer possible. The embryo would die if he removed one of the three cells and replaced it with a cell from another embryo.

From that he concluded that the embryo was a living being from the 3 cell stage.

Shalom.

94 posted on 05/28/2002 11:51:22 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: weegee
There was a minor who died in Houston a few years back from internal bleeding. She had a legal abortion and kept her parents in the dark. We hear about how many women would die from "illegal" abortions if the law changes but I don't ever see published stats on how many woman die from legal abortions.

Do you have any idea how many people die from injuries recieved during routine medical procedures every year?

95 posted on 05/28/2002 11:53:32 AM PDT by Zeroisanumber
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To: Economist_MA
So anyone who has counted the days and still got pregnant can have an abortion? And why is counting days any better than simply taking the pill? Are differences in failure rates what you base your argument on?

No, you missed my point. I am arguing that contraception is linked directly to abortion and that it is selfish behavior to kill instead of taking responsibility for the consequences of sex.

A 'culture' of inverted sexuality

This sums up my views on the issue of contracpetion.

96 posted on 05/28/2002 11:55:17 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Bump in the night
Apparently, some people believe that a single cell is life and it would be wrong to kill it.

I'm going to presume that you know the difference between a fertilized ovum and, say, one of your skin cells, right? You're only using an extremist argument to make a point, right?

OK, so what if we don't decide a fertilized ovum is a life. What if we decide it has to multiply to 3 cells first, like that French biologist I was talking about. Or maybe we should use the 16 cell stage?

How many abortions do you know of that occur between the first and the 16th cell?

Shalom.

97 posted on 05/28/2002 11:55:33 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: Economist_MA
IMHO these people do more damage to the pro-life movement than anyone else by driving anyone remotely moderate away.

I agree.

98 posted on 05/28/2002 11:55:37 AM PDT by geaux
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To: JMJ333
I've missed you too.

Shalom.

(Dare I say, BRAAD to the bone?)

99 posted on 05/28/2002 11:56:46 AM PDT by ArGee
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To: JMJ333
If you really want to cut down on the number of abortions then mandate sex ed and distribute free birth-control. The problem wouldn't evaporate, but it would alleviate the damage done.
100 posted on 05/28/2002 11:57:12 AM PDT by Zeroisanumber
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