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MIKHAIL GORBACHEV: From the Presidium to the Presidio
kenraggio.com ^ | Ken Raggio

Posted on 05/30/2002 3:25:15 PM PDT by Ivan the Terrible

MIKHAIL GORBACHEV:

From the Presidium

to the Presidio

Malachi Martin states, "It is my opinion, for instance, that the USSR didn’t disintegrate naturally but was ordered to collapse. Gorbachev was told to vacate his power base, and also to inform other leaders of the Soviet bloc nations to do likewise. Those orders came from the Capstone."

Some say Gorby is the "last remaining Global leader"

New World Order as embodied in the United Nations and its global endeavor to institute political, economic, and religious governance over all the world, has very few fanatical supporters of the caliber of Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev.

His "Green Cross International" based in Geneva, Switzerland, (one of many globalist organizations he has played a principle role in creating), boldly stated in a May, 1997 news release that Gorbachev "may be the last remaining Global leader" and that he is "…a man with a still-unfulfilled destiny."

The purpose of this article is to better identify Gorbachev and examine the nature of his present Globalist agenda. In doing so, you will see that New World Order, and specifically, the Biblical Antichrist system is well on its way to subduing the earth.

Gorbachev's political and religious machine has all the resources, ambitions and key players to produce the final Antichrist system.

Exactly who is this unique world leader?

Mikhail Gorbachev was born in 1931, the worst year of Joseph Stalin’s terror and collectivization of the Soviet Union. The first three years of his life were spent enduring disastrous famine in a peasant family of European Russia. By the age of twelve, the Germans occupied his hometown of Stavropol. But he would not remain in such dire straights.

His grandfather was a Communist Party member and collectivist chairman; his father a local party chief. Young Mikhail pursued an active political career. At nineteen, he joined the Communist Party, and at twenty-four, he graduated from Moscow State University, Law Faculty, after holding a variety of posts in Komsomol - the Communist Youth Party, and University and City politics. He worked in the Department of Propaganda, was a Delegate to the 22nd Party Congress, a Party organizer, and Head of the Department of Party Organs. These experiences provided a well-rounded initiation for a young aspirant.

Gorbachev's first big mark was as Agricultural/Industrial Reformer

At 35, Gorbachev graduated from the Agricultural Institute as an agronomist- economist. The next year he became Second Secretary for agriculture, then in 1970, First Secretary. His rapid climb continued: 1971, Member Central Committee 24th Party Congress; 1972, Head of Delegation to Belgium at invitation of Communist Party; 1974, Representative to Supreme Soviet, and Chairman of the Standing Commission on Youth Affairs, 1975: Head of Delegation to West Germany at invitation of Communist Party.

His success made him prominent in the Soviet Union

In 1977, Gorbachev appeared on Page 1 of Pravda for successes in agricultural ministry. In 1978, he wrote in the Agitator (propaganda magazine), and met President Brezhnev and General Secretary Chernenko to report on good harvest. He was given the Order of the October Revolution and spoke on agriculture at the Central Committee Plenum. At a prominent funeral, Gorbachev spoke from atop Lenin's mausoleum.

He met Premier Kosygin and Andropov in his hometown, and was promoted to Secretary of the Central Committee, responsible for agriculture. Gorbachev was elected to the Supreme Soviet, listed 28th in Party hierarchy; later named Candidate Member of Politburo. In 1980, he began work on Brezhnev's Food Program, published an article in Kommunist linking agriculture and industry, and was promoted to Full Member of Politburo. He gave a traditional speech marking Lenin's birthday.

His success let to International roles

Gorbachev led a Soviet delegation to Canada in 1983, meeting Trudeau and members of the House of Commons and Senate. After returning from Canada, the nature of his roles began to change. He was placed in charge of personnel changes in the Party apparatus and government. He was also left in charge of day-to-day operations of Secretariate while Andropov was off on vacation. In the international incident of the Korean Air liner which was shot down, Gorbachev chaired a crisis group.

Given the task of supervising regional elections and recommending younger and more able Party officials in regions where economic performance was poor or where corruption was evident, Gorbachev eventually became the formal 2nd-in-command with Chernenko. He was elected Chairman of Supreme Soviet Foreign Affairs Commission. He addressed the USSR’s All-Union Conference on agro-industrial complex. He made the nominating speech prior to Chernenko being elected Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet and was the main speaker at conference on ideology in Moscow. There he made famous his concepts of "openness (glasnost) as a compulsory condition of socialist democracy and a norm for public life."

Going to Britain, he met with Margaret Thatcher and Parliament leaders. Then Chernenko died. In 1985, he was elected General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Nominated by Gromyko, Gorbachev became a member of the Presidium, the Executive Committee of the Supreme Soviet headed by the President.. In 1985, he published a long term economic plan out to 2000. Boris Yeltsin took over as Moscow Party boss.

For his role in International Nuclear Disarmament, dissolving the USSR and reuniting Germany, he earned world recognition

Gorbachev met with Ronald Reagan in Geneva, and Perestroika (restructuring) began. In 1987, he visited Prague, calling for elimination of all nuclear weapons from Europe. He visited Washington, D.C. in December for the first time and signs INF treaty whereby all intermediate-range nuclear weapons were to be destroyed within three years. That was followed by a 1988 Summit with Reagan in Moscow. In October he was elected president, and in December he addressed the United Nations.

In November 1989, he caused the Berlin wall to come down. December saw him in the Vatican making plans with the Pope. Next, he saw George Bush in Malta. In November of 1990, a landmark document called the Joint Declaration of Twenty-two States was signed in Paris. That was the turning point in East / West relations. The Cold War was over. His spectacular performances won him the Nobel Peace Prize.

Gorbachev became extremely popular in the West

Then in a theatrical, if not staged event, Gorbachev was kidnapped and finally released by coup plotters in 1991. In August, he resigned as head of Communist Party. Finally on December 25, he resigned as President, and the USSR was officially dissolved. The world was shocked.

In an interview with the New American, (6/9/97), Malachi Martin states, "It is my opinion, for instance, that the USSR didn’t disintegrate naturally but was ordered to collapse. Gorbachev was told to vacate his power base, and also to inform other leaders of the Soviet bloc nations to do likewise. Those orders came from the Capstone."

Martin says in Windswept House, "Within two years of Gorbachev’s ‘ouster’, GF/USA had moved into the disused military offices of the Presidio in San Francisco. There, with the fantastic view of the Bay to cheer him, Gorbachev set about his new role in earnest. He launched GF/Netherlands, and GF/India (Rajiv Gandhi). And he formulated plans for Green Cross International, his own version of ecumenical activity for the "spiritual alliance of all true believers in man’s ‘earthly habitat’"

Gorbachev at the Presidio: a bonus for a job well done?

The Presidio in San Francisco is one of the most famous citadels in American History. Established by the Spanish in 1776 on the banks of San Francisco Bay, it has served as a principle American fortress during both aggressions and defense. Operated by the National Parks and Conservation Association, America's only private nonprofit citizen organization dedicated solely to protecting, preserving, and enhancing the U.S. National Park System. An association of "Citizens Protecting America's Parks," NPCA was founded in 1919 and today has 500,000 members.

In October, 1996, the US Congress passed a sweeping reform bill HR 4236, which, among other park reforms, "establishes a new management structure for the historic Presidio in San Francisco." Reading between the lines, the US government has essentially handed over this prize compound to the New World Order gang. In a nutshell, the Presidio is fast becoming a Globalist utopia, free of US controls, and the typical world citizen might be shocked to learn the real agenda of these "master engineers and facilitators".

Gorbachev’s "Brain Trust": The New World Order gang

The New World Order is not being assimilated by so much officialdom (legally commissioned governmental agencies) nearly so much as it is being fabricated by foundations, non-governmental organizations, academia and agents of behind-the-scenes secret societies, referred to by Malachi Martin as "the Capstone" (a term referring to the Luciferic "Illuminati" types, whose diabolic schemes have been evolving for centuries). There are less Kings and Presidents playing strategic roles than there are powerful world citizens such as Banking Magnate David Rockefeller, Media Mogul Ted Turner, Former Senator Alan Cranston, and a cornucopia of high ranking Freemasons, New Age occult religionists, "Green" Environmentalists, and so forth.

"As early as April of 1991, (Gorbachev’s) American friends and sponsors had set up the nonprofit nucleus for that (Gorbachev) Foundation, calling it the Tamalpais Institute of San Francisco. They couldn’t decently call it the Gorbachev Foundation while Gorbachev was still the master of all the Russias! But they could - and May of that year, did - hold a fund-raising dinner at New York’s Waldorf-Astoria. There, in the presence of Henry Kissinger, officials of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the Ford Foundation, and the Pew and Mellon Funds all pitched in with a guarantee to supply the Gorbachev Foundation with its start up bankroll of $3.05 million." Malachi Martin, in his newest book, Windswept House, gives flesh to the evolution of Gorby’s global influence: "Thus, well before Gorbachev ostensibly quit national Russian politics at the end of that year, plans for his future role were nicely on their way. And not for GF/USA only. A Moscow branch of the Gorbachev Foundation - GF/Russia - would be housed by Yeltsin in the long-established International Lenin School. The ILS offered such advantages as its location at the center of Moscow and its trained working staff of one hundred academics, all provided at government expense." And, I might add, home-grown Leninist Socialists!

What is going on at the Presidio?

According to a May, 1995 news item in The San Francisco Chronicle, Gorbachev invited a number of prestigious global elitists to join him at the Presidio. The purpose was "to discuss the state of the world" and "new directions" for the "future of the nation state." Former Senator Alan Cranstron was quoted as saying, "There appears to be a great cynicism everywhere about government. And there's a yearning for new directions." Cranston became the Chairman of The Gorbachev Foundation USA. Gorbachev-directed 'brain trusts' would help guide the world's affairs. The 'Earth Charter,' composed by Gorbachev and UN environmental guru Maurice Strong, was to be presented at the Presidio conference.

Among the invited guests to this State of the World Forum were former US President George Bush; former UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher; Vaclav Havel, President of Czechoslovakia; former Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone; Anglican Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa; media mogul Ted Turner; Microsoft Chairman William Gates; US Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich; and Alvin Toffler, author of futurist books like Future Shock and The Third Wave.

Gorbachev has initiated a series of international conferences to offer world leaders, institutions and international organizations specific recommendations regarding the security needs of the post-Cold War world. "The Program" of the State of the World Forum included bringing together working groups of international experts in the areas of: Elimination of nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons testing; Drafting a new architecture for global security in the post Cold War world; and Developing improved methods of ethnic, religious and regional conflict resolution. Focus papers written by prominent individuals in these fields provided a basis for discussion. Working group meetings were held in September, 1993 in Moscow, Russia; in April, 1994 in Washington, D.C.; and the final conference was held in September 1994 in New Delhi, India. Gorbachev presented the findings of this two-year international project to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York in October, 1994 with subsequent publication and distribution to international institutions.

Gorbachev’s International Web of influence

The State of the World Forum, at the pinnacle of all Gorbachev’s endeavors, is by no means the only focus of his energies. An almost endless list of non-governmental organizations are cropping up all over the world with Gorbachev’s name on them. Here are only a few:


World Without Wars 2000
is part of an all volunteer international project, launched by members of the international New Humanist Movement in 1995. Its campaign "Year 2000 7 Days Without Wars" is now moving forward in 25 countries, (including Russia, several Eastern and Western European countries, the Philippines, Hong Kong, South America, Israel, Australia, the US and Canada) with new countries coming in all the time. Gorbachev and Noam Chomsky, MIT professor and renowned Anarchist/Libertarian Socialist are two of the prominent voices in that movement. Disarmament, from the national level down to individual gun control are on the agenda.

Green Cross International, since June 1993, Gorbachev has chaired this Globalist environmental movement. Its tentacles reach into countless areas of international law and politics, ultimately demanding the submission of all nation-states to the sovereignty of a Global environmental government - one of many efforts he is making to establish and enforce supra-national powers.

The International Nuclear Safety Foundation (INSF), launched in Vienna, on June 26, 1997, according to Reuters. Its aim is to step up pressure on governments to improve nuclear safety standards by mobilizing public opinion.

Can Gorby really solve the world’s problems?

In September of 1991, as the fifteen republics of the Soviet Union were breaking up, Gorbachev said, "Only Jesus Christ could take a few loaves of bread and feed the thousands ... Only Jesus Christ could solve problems such as these."

It would be good if he would apply that wisdom to the entire Global dilema today. Instead of pressing for New World Order, press for the return of Jesus Christ. Believers already know Who the real Final Solution is!

We would do well to keep an eye peeled on Gorbachev and any of the movers and shakers that hang around him. These guys are running the New World Order.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Russia; US: California
KEYWORDS: environmentalism; globalism; gorbachev; newworldorder; perestroika

1 posted on 05/30/2002 3:25:15 PM PDT by Ivan the Terrible
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To: Ivan the Terrible
It is good to know that dear departed Malachi knows less about the NWO than he does the Papal See.
2 posted on 05/30/2002 3:34:24 PM PDT by harrowup
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To: harrowup
make that knew less.
3 posted on 05/30/2002 3:36:30 PM PDT by harrowup
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To: harrowup
and also make that did
4 posted on 05/30/2002 3:37:21 PM PDT by harrowup
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To: Ivan the Terrible
Capstone = Rosebud (shhhhhh)
5 posted on 05/30/2002 4:33:47 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: Stavka2;AustinWillardWright
"The goal of socialism is communism." - V.I. Lenin

"The meaning of peace is the absence of the opposition to Socialism." -Karl Marx

"Gentlemen, Comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about Glasnost and Perestroika and democracy in the coming years. These are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal changes in the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans, and let them fall asleep." -Gorbachev (1987)

"More socialism means more democracy, openness and collectivism in everyday life." -Gorbachev (1988)

"Our vision of the European space from the Atlantic to the Urals in not that of a closed system. Since it includes the Soviet Union, which reaches to the shores of the Pacific, it goes beyond nominal geographical boundaries." -Gorbachev, Nobel Peace Prize Lecture, delivered in Oslo,(1992)

(Note that Gorbachev, who had been out of office for six months, referred to the Soviet Union, not Russia.)

"Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev said on Thursday the victims of the September 11 attacks in the United States will not have died in vain if world leaders use the crisis to create a new world order."


Gorbachev Honored (10/20/98)
Gorbachev Reborn (3/09/01)
Gorbachev still a prophet in his own country (8/15/01)
Gorbachev: Russia needs better NATO ties (11/24/01)
6 posted on 05/30/2002 4:38:46 PM PDT by Orion78
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: Ivan the Terrible
The new world order is stealing my tinfoil! HELP HELP!
8 posted on 05/30/2002 10:10:28 PM PDT by HassanBenSobar
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To: Orion78
Thanks for the information about Gorby but I am well aware of this. I have stated many times that Gorbachov's goal in "glasnost" was to save Communism in Russia. Unfortunately, for him, he was unsuccessful in this goal.
9 posted on 05/31/2002 6:43:37 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: Austin Willard Wright;Stavka2
"The paramount global objective of the strategy of 'perestroika' is to weaken and neutralize anti-Communist ideology and the influence of anti-Communists in political life in the United States, Western Europe and elsewhere - presenting them as anachronistic survivors of the Cold War, reactionaries and obstacles to 'restructuring' and peace. Anyone who warns about Moscow's true objectives is automatically branded a 'Cold Warrior', even by people who have doubts about Moscow's motives."

Gorbachev's goal was to save Communism in Russia by convincing the world that Communism no longer existed.

10 posted on 06/10/2002 9:01:44 PM PDT by Orion78
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To: Ivan the Terrible
Did Fr. Martin ever disclose who he thought Capstone was? Did any ever figure it out independently?
11 posted on 06/10/2002 9:05:57 PM PDT by cicero's_son
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To: Austin Willard Wright
Russia jettisoning Cold War legacy (5/29/02)

The Russians can be Commies and our best friends at the same time. Oh wait, if forgot the Chinese to, but even sadder, they don't even hide that they are Communist. They don't have to, nobody seems to care.

12 posted on 06/10/2002 9:08:12 PM PDT by Orion78
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To: Orion78
You're beating a dead horse. Haven't you heard the new enemy is world Islam? You're still pushing last year's model. Next year's model? Who knows?
13 posted on 06/11/2002 6:58:33 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: Orion78
Well, you keep living in your make believe bunker world, and I'll keep living in reality....we'll see who dies disappointed, rambo. Here's an idea, why not just save us all the trouble and go ahead and take one of your many guns and go to Russia and start shooting...you'll get your fantasy of fighting Russians and we'll have one less conspiracy nut...if not that, I heard Al Quida and the Chechins are hiring.
14 posted on 06/11/2002 1:52:33 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Ivan the Terrible
Malachi Martin states, "It is my opinion,

And in my opinion the moon is made of green cheese, but that doesn't necessarly make so, now does that?

15 posted on 06/11/2002 1:54:53 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Austin Willard Wright
You are one of the few people on this thread that understands this. Of course he was trying to save communism, he fully believes in it as an ideologist. Point is, not only did he not save it, he sped along its death throws. Problem is, half the bunker nuts around here can't figure out that it's dead and are waiting for the Shadow Politburo to take over.
16 posted on 06/11/2002 1:57:23 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Orion78
Yup, all communist states have 13% flat taxes, 24% flat corporate taxes, the right to vote, self defense, own realistate and conduct business...whoops, but once again, I'm beating a dead horse with you...you'll just put your fingers in your ears and make loud noises so you don't have to face reality. Good day.
17 posted on 06/11/2002 1:59:19 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
"Yup, all communist states have 13% flat taxes, 24% flat corporate taxes, the right to vote, self defense, own realistate and conduct business...whoops, but once again, I'm beating a dead horse with you...you'll just put your fingers in your ears and make loud noises so you don't have to face reality. Good day."

Hmmm why does that all sound so familiar? Oh yeah...

"In 1921 the economy of Russia lay in ruins. seven years of war and civil war had produced catastrophe. Industrial production stood at thirteen per cent of prewar volume; the grain harvest had fallen from 74 million tons in 1916 to 30 million tons in 1919 and continued to decline still further. Inflation was rampant, and although the Communists hated and feared it, they saw no alternative but to contribute to it by printing paper money. The immediate economic measures taken to meet the crisis could not be directly financial. nor could they involve any plans for extensive change in the structure of the economy. They aimed merely to persuade people to work and produce more, in the city or in the village, so that some kind of regular trade could be resumed, the urban masses fed, and the villages supplied with the goods for which they would willingly exchange their grain."....

"Although as indicated the food tax was prompted by basically political motives, it also initiated the revival of the economy. The law provided that the peasant must pay the government a tax in kind consisting of a certain percentage, varying somewhat from region to region, of his produce; he could then dispose of the remainder on the free market. A year later the tax was fixed at a standard ten per cent. In 1922 also the peasant was permitted to lease and hire labor, although purchase and sale of land were still prohibited. By the Fundamental Law on the Exploitation of Land by the Workers, enacted in Hay 1922, the government guaranteed the peasant freedom of choice of land tenure, individual, communal, or other. Thus the villager was permitted, within rather broad limits, to manage his own economic life as he saw fit...."

"By 1923-1924 it was apparent that the regime was managing to stabilize itself, at least for the time being, as the economic revival made headway. The open although limited encouragement given to private enterprise led many in and out of Russia to conclude that "capitalism" had returned for good, and that the Communists had jettisoned their long-proclaimed ideological objectives, which might never have been seriously meant anyhow. The introduction of the NEP was the first in a long series of occasions in Soviet history when foreign observers decided that Communist doctrine was ceasing to be significant in influencing the Soviet Leaders."


18 posted on 06/12/2002 6:49:01 PM PDT by Orion78
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To: Orion78
Well gee, according to your thought pattern any day now there should be a communist reemergence...after all, the economy is growing now for 3+ years at 6+ percent and all...so lets just wait and see....how many more years of life do you have, say on average? I just want to know about how long to wait so I can smile down on your death bed and tell you I told you so.

By the way...the reason it should sound familiar is that before you Western intelligentsia forced Communism on us, 13% is what the Tsar took.

19 posted on 06/12/2002 8:42:31 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Orion78
Of course, you conviniently ignore the freedom of speech (but you wouldn't know about that since you believe all the crap you read and have never been there to see it for yourself) and the fact about elections and such...all those little things you ignore in your hatred.
20 posted on 06/12/2002 8:44:06 PM PDT by Stavka2
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: jdhmichigan
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe this "idiot" has some concept of what he speaks of, since as opposed to you nuts, not only am I Russian, lived in Russia but I've also lived in America and I've traveled most of the Western world...which means, having studied history and politics, I might have a real clue about reality and not your bunker stupidity. .... here, let me give you all a little spoiler about your futures...you'll all die very disappointed men. And if you are such big shots and heroes in your minds, why don't you grab one of your many guns and come after us Russians, we'll see how long you Ramboes last.
22 posted on 06/12/2002 9:05:17 PM PDT by Stavka2
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: Belmont_mark;Askel5;rightwing2;OKCSubmariner;sonofliberty2;JohnHuang2;harbingr;elbucko;2sheep...
"By the way...the reason it should sound familiar is that before you Western intelligentsia forced Communism on us, 13% is what the Tsar took"

Is this statement historically accurate?

24 posted on 06/12/2002 9:52:12 PM PDT by Orion78
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To: jdhmichigan
First of all, I never once said that Gorbachov wasn't for world government and that he wasn't a communist. He is an ideologist through and through. He is also one of the most hated men in Russia. Partially because he was a communist boss and partially because when he collapsed the Soviet Union, through his stupidity, he allowed Russia itself to disolve into 18 entities. Something the vast majority of the people were against. As for West and communism, they are welcome to it. Thanks for the 70 years of misery and terror that all the Western Intelligencia helped import into my mother land. Thanks for the 30 million dead from the Communists and the other 20 million dead from the other Marxists, the Nazies.

As for the fools here who actually think the Soviets are going to come back and rule Russia, go pound sand. If the bunch of you hate us Russians so much, by all means, be men and take a gun and we'll settle it once and for all. Russian soil only grows greener off of the blood of foreigners.

25 posted on 06/12/2002 11:52:01 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2;jdhmichigan
"He is also one of the most hated men in Russia. Partially because he was a communist boss and partially because when he collapsed the Soviet Union, through his stupidity, he allowed Russia itself to disolve into 18 entities. Something the vast majority of the people were against"

Geopolitical Strategies of Russia, The 'Commonwealth of Independent States' and China Perestroika Deception:Memorandum to CIA | March 26, 1992 | Anatoliy Golitsyn
"The present assessment shows how, because of Western ignorance of and confusion about the strategy underlying 'Perestroika' and because of Western political and economic support for the so-called reform of the Soviet system, the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) has been successfully installed and has begun to carry out concrete new geopolitical strategies within the framework of the long-standing overall Communist strategy of convergence. These strategies are still being guided and coordinated by the same Soviet strategists who have simply shifted away from the use of the old worn-out ideology and the familiar but obsolete patterns, to the exploitation of geopolitical factors and of the new potentialities of the 'reformed' Communist system. The common feature of these geopolitical strategies is the manipulation and use of the 'democrat' and 'independent' images which the change in form from the USSR to the CIS and it's individual members has provided so abundantly and the nature of which the West has, so far, failed to comprehend."

26 posted on 06/13/2002 11:49:19 AM PDT by Orion78
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To: Stavka2
"He is also one of the most hated men in Russia."

Gorbachev still a prophet in his own country

Speaking of "Beating a dead horse"...Please see bottom of Post#6

27 posted on 06/13/2002 11:55:14 AM PDT by Orion78
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To: all
Stavka and others defending "Weimar Russia" (I use this terminology with great purpose...) sure talk a lot about bunkers. That is because Russia built and continues to build them while us naive, overly trusting Westerners build shopping malls and freeways. If only we did have more bunkers...
28 posted on 06/13/2002 6:18:37 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: Stavka2 ; belmont_mark
As for the fools here who actually think the Soviets are going to come back and rule Russia, go pound sand. If the bunch of you hate us Russians so much, by all means, be men and take a gun and we'll settle it once and for all. Russian soil only grows greener off of the blood of foreigners.

We will do just that if the Russians believe they are hated, no matter, for hatred is a right too, after all. There is no need to pound sands regarding communism, but nukes.

Communism is not far fetched given the fact that nuclear weapons are the only true "communising" weapons. After all, Chernobyl was a great exercise (concoted or accidental, no matter) at creating true communism in the region. Now that everyone has been evacuated, the area and the station there has been run by the government of Ukraine so effectively that the governors even got direct subsidies from Europe and the US to stop this "travesty"... Of course, it has not stopped and it is the governors and not the land owners of the area, that are stuffing their pockets.

What better excuse there is indeed against the restoration of legitimate jurisdictions but to impose safety and security mandates accross whole regions, replacing jurisdictions with mandatory "efficient" ideological and technical algorithms.

29 posted on 06/14/2002 4:05:00 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: belmont_mark;stavka2
I think that Stavka2 and Austin Willard are the only people refraining from ignorant hatred on this thread. I was just in Russia three weeks ago. Did you you know that the Kremlin is SURROUNDED by shopping malls? Yes, it's true! The GUM (department store just east of it) was built in 1883-1887 and was probably the world's first shopping mall as we know it with luxury goods and great variety. Just WEST of the Kremlin is a new $350,000,000 shopping mall, which we had great fun visiting also.

In support of Stavka2 against various ignoramuses, I will confirm his actual FACTS about the 13% flat tax; about the great and increasing prosperity and private enterprise in and about Moscow (such that you couldn't guess from looking out our hotel window that you weren't in some other great world city); about the TOTAL ABSENCE of even one symbol of Communism (i.e. NO red flags, No red slogans on banners; NO statues of Lenin, etc) but their replacement with Russia's TRADITIONAL symbols (the double-headed eagle carried down from its affiliation with the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire; the icons of St. George).

I am sorry to see that the dummies in the West are still fixated on Russia as a threat to their prosperity. I think the problem is that things in the West (at the pinnacle of its power and wealth) can only get worse; things in Russia can only get better.

30 posted on 06/14/2002 8:35:40 AM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
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To: wildandcrazyrussian , belmont_mark
I dunno, I think we are not hating Russians here, unless you are not reading correctly. And Xenophobia was quite well set up after the defeat of Russia to Japan in soccer.

The point is that former Soviets are participating in a system that is simply unaccountable, internaly and externaly. Whether it is breaking treaties abroad or promises at home, the system there is geared toward confinement. The rulers keep being in position of prosecuting their people when it should be the people prosecuting them. Where is the hatred of the Russians in there? Quite the contrary, there is none.

and mind you, those criticizuing Russia on these threads have criticized the Clinton administration and their own liberals here too. So this is not xenophobia, this is genuine assessment of where the prosecution tools lay, whose hands they lay in and how reasonable these people are.

Russia does need a central government to manage nuclear responsibility, but why claim to stop the cold war yet keep the nukes pointed? That's socialist hypocrisy.

31 posted on 06/14/2002 8:51:35 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: wildandcrazyrussian,Orion78,
Let Lenin rest in peace, warns Putin

"Many people link their whole lives with Lenin's name. For them his burial would mean that they had bowed down to false values, set themselves false tasks and lived in vain." - Vladimir Putin

32 posted on 06/14/2002 9:44:52 AM PDT by Ivan the Terrible
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To: Stavka2
"...before you Western intelligentsia forced Communism on us..."

Now who is the tin-foil hatted conspiracy nut? At least we were nice enough to help you out of the hole with a fat international handout.

33 posted on 06/14/2002 9:48:18 AM PDT by Ivan the Terrible
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To: Orion78
Congratulations.
34 posted on 06/14/2002 9:49:00 AM PDT by Ivan the Terrible
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To: all
So Russia has finally discovered what the PRC discovered. Big deal. Russia is yet another nation state where idealogy and political systems are worn like fashions, whatever works best in any given time to further underlying sinister goals. In the cult of personality, it is the lines of power (and accurate and strategic handoff thereof) that is most important. This is probably why the West lacked the courage to occupy lands, demand unconditional treaties or demand accounting by the "past" leadership when the West "won" the Cold War. The West somehow knew that if, after the 1989 - 1991 "fall," any sort of true settlement was sought, that the brilliance of the "dream" that had emerged would quickly become tarnished, and that, likely, overt conflict (hot, not cold) would emerge. So, in typical Western liberal fashion, appeasement, conciliation and benefit of a doubt started to reign surpreme.

Of course, to say that the West "won" the Cold War is akin to saying that the Triple Entente "won" WW-I, yet another indistinct and ambiguous European "armistice" that solved nothing and led to a much greater conflict 20 years hence. Disturbing yet true...

35 posted on 06/14/2002 2:18:36 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: Ivan the Terrible
Fat international hand outs? First off, the hand outs were quite small and most of that money had to be spent hiring Clintoon associates. As for the IMF loans of $18 billion, they are more then two thirds paid off. The IMF was the one who insisted on the 30%+ tax rate and berated Putin for going to the flat 13, saying that Russia would implode...guess they were wrong again.

As for which Westerners: Marx, Engles, Armnhammer, Kaiser Wilham II to name a few.

36 posted on 06/17/2002 7:25:44 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: belmont_mark
Yeah, that's right, ever home in Russia has a bunker 500 feet under the ground. Hell, we've dug to the center of the earth and it's hollow, that's were we've already hid 2000 billion people to take over the earth after we incinrate you worms off of it. Here it comes, in 2 days, so stay tooned...nut jobs.
37 posted on 06/17/2002 7:31:00 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: lavaroise
First of all, what do you know about the conditions in Russia? You have never been there. You have no idea, except what you get from your conspiracy crap mags and other wack job sites. You need someone to hate. Putin has installed things that you could only wish Bush had. Problem is, you need a focus to your existance, to keep it meaningful, so instead of the Islamics, you elevate your self image by thinking you see plots behind plots, which don't exist. Now, having said all this, I am done talking to wall paper...that's the lot of you. Don't bump me or post to me, I have better things to do with my brain cells then waste them on vegetables.
38 posted on 06/17/2002 7:35:43 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
You hypocrit SOB. You claim you know all about me, yet you claim I should know nothing about the Kremlin. Typical socialist hypocrisy.

Bottom line is the Russian people are still confined and people like you still demand from them to consider Putin is somekind of sinless great leader. Well, the delusions start here.

39 posted on 06/17/2002 7:42:01 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: belmont_mark
I think the problem is that things in the West (at the pinnacle of its power and wealth) can only get worse; things in Russia can only get better.

Believe me, if anyone is laughing about their own greatness to come, it ain't Russians, God maybe, but not Russians. You guys paint yourselves in this delusional picture that is really ... well just childlish images. That you call others ignoramuses in the same breath does not impress.

40 posted on 06/17/2002 7:48:34 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Stavka2
Will you not respond to post number 35? Is what I wrote there uncomfortable to contemplate?
41 posted on 06/17/2002 8:35:47 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: lavaroise
This is my last reply to you. You are ignorant, convoluted and absurd. You have no real knowledge of what you speak off. You go off some delusional theories that are about as true as the moon being made of green cheese. You call me a hypocrit? When have you ever been to Russia? When have you ever studied in an unbiased way anything dealing with Russia modern or historic, without coloring everything with your racist conspiracy delusions? Since sensible conversation with you is impossible, since anyone who disagrees with your omnipitant world view is instantly labeled a communist or the boogy man or some other such....bugger off and leave me the hell alone. I prefer to waste my time picking my arse then talking to you.
42 posted on 06/18/2002 8:39:49 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Stavka2
You're the one prosecuting the poster instead of seeing the reality. But go ahead, consume obsenely all you want. Ultimately ravenous all animals will meet their challenging predator. Obviously I am not one of them, so rejoice for now.
43 posted on 06/18/2002 8:49:39 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Stavka2
Lavaroise is flying the flag of Germany these days.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

Having been to both countries, I'd put my trust in Russia quickly as opposed to Germany - nation of skinheads rising. And remember Germany is where many of our islamic terrorists made themselves right at home.

There is no soul in a German, Stavka. The emptiness of it is what drives them to hate others so.

44 posted on 06/18/2002 9:22:03 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
It is also the Reighstag that is now calling for War Crimes Tribunerals against the US for Afghanistan. Lets not forget that.
45 posted on 06/18/2002 10:37:19 AM PDT by Stavka2
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Malachi Martin states, "It is my opinion, for instance, that the USSR didn’t disintegrate naturally but was ordered to collapse. Gorbachev was told to vacate his power base, and also to inform other leaders of the Soviet bloc nations to do likewise. Those orders came from the Capstone."

(39)Editor's Note:
Furthermore, there is a crucial dialectical difference between Russia and China, connected with the strategists' ruse of fabricating a 'Break with the Past'. In his book Soviet Propaganda as a Foreign Policy Tool [Freedom House, New York, 1991], M. Leighton observed [page 14] that

... the Communist Party of the Soviet Union [CPSU] must posit the existence of an external enemy in order to justify its monopoly of power. If the United States didn't exist as the arch foe, the Kremlin would have to invent it.

This was the standard perception, the accuracy of which was taken for granted for generations - until the 'abolition of the enemy' was formalised in Paris on 19th November 1990 with the signing of the 'Declaration of Twenty-Two States' and the 'Charter of Paris'. Point One of the Declaration asserts that 'the signatories solemnly declare that, in the new era of European relations which is beginning, they are no longer adversaries, will build new relationships and extend to each other the hand of friendship'.

But NATO and the West had failed to notice, let alone understand, the meticulous Leninist use of language concerning the 'abolition' of the enemy by the Communist apparatus. For instance, Academician Georgiy Arbatov, one of Gorbachev's closest advisers, had referred in the June 1988 issue of 'Kommunist' to the forthcoming 'erosion of the image of the enemy' [see Note 16, page 32].

If he had meant that the enemy itself was to be erased, he would have said as much; but he did not. Thus the West mistook the image for the reality- just as this leading strategist had anticipated. If the Communist Party needed, as Leighton says, 'to posit the existence of an external enemy to justify its monopoly of power', it followed that the 'abolition of the image of the enemy' would need logically to be accompanied by the 'disappearance' of the Communist Party itself.

Hence the 'August coup' and its aftermath, which represented a 'Break with the Past', opening the way for 'convergence' as intended by the strategists. By contrast, since the West had not, since Nixon's detente with China, regarded China as 'the enemy', the reverse of this logic required no 'vanishing act' by the Chinese Communist Party.

The Specifics of Perestroika In China

46 posted on 07/22/2002 8:33:09 PM PDT by Askel5
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