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New book says Christians suffered most
The Guardian UK ^ | 6/04/02 | Rory Carroll in Rome

Posted on 06/03/2002 6:55:44 PM PDT by LarryLied

A new book which claims that Christians are the victims of worldwide persecution has stirred controversy in Italy amid accusations that it minimises the Holocaust and demonises Islam.

The author, Antonio Socci, claims the untold story of the 20th century is the murder of 45 million Christians, mostly at the hands of communist and Islamic regimes, and that massacres continue to this day.

The New Persecuted, Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs, has angered some scholars by depicting Christians as beleaguered victims of rampaging Muslims.

Some reviewers have hailed the publication as a wake-up call to Christians in the west who have not realised, even in the wake of September 11, that they are under attack by a hostile rival religion.

Others said Mr Socci was part of a rightwing revisionist effort to distort history and promote a hawkish response to perceived threats.

Drawing heavily from the World Christian Encyclopedia, published last year by the Oxford University Press, Mr Socci traces the persecution of Christians through the centuries, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the lions at Circus Maximus, the assassination of Thomas Becket and the execution of Thomas More, the Boxer rebellion in China, Mexico's revolution and the Turkish massacres in Armenia. He calculates that in the past 2,000 years some 70 million Christians have been killed, two-thirds in the past 100 years alone, a bloodbath blamed mostly on the Soviet Union as well as communist China and Nazi Germany.

Mr Socci supports Israel and does not dispute the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust but by framing the genocide in such a context he had minimised its significance, said Alberto Melloni, an author and religious historian.

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

Mr Socci, 43, a columnist with conservative Italian newspapers, claims that an average of 160,000 Christians have been killed every year since 1990, the vast majority in the third world. Critics said the figure included Christians killed in conflicts which had little to do with religion.

Chronicling attacks, pogroms and wars in East Timor, Indonesia, Sudan, Egypt, Pakistan, India, and even Rwanda and Latin America, Mr Socci identifies Islamic extremism as the main danger.

He complains that secular western governments, intellectuals and media organisations have played down the bloodbath because the persecution of Jews and Muslims, whether in the former Soviet Union or former Yugoslavia, was considered more newsworthy. "This global persecution of Christianity is still in progress but in most cases is ignored by the mass media and Christians in the west."

Tommaso Debenedetti, a cultural commentator, said the book was part of an attempt by Italy's right to deflect accusations of intolerance against immigrants and other minorities by casting itself as the victim of non-Christian and liberal forces. "The right is reversing the argument."

Breaking ranks with positive reviews which called the book "extraordinary", the Turin daily La Stampa said it was a provocation with questionable statistics and a flawed definition of martyr which included those killed for political reasons.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; christianpersecutio
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1 posted on 06/03/2002 6:55:44 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
bump
2 posted on 06/03/2002 7:00:05 PM PDT by JeepInMazar
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To: LarryLied
Interesting.
3 posted on 06/03/2002 7:01:11 PM PDT by SoDak
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To: *Christian Persecutio

4 posted on 06/03/2002 7:02:00 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: LarryLied
The problem is that it is not politically correct to say that Christians are being slaughtered. We are just supposed to ignore it and pretend that it doesn't happen.
5 posted on 06/03/2002 7:02:58 PM PDT by Raymond Hendrix
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To: LarryLied
... Tommaso Debenedetti, a cultural commentator, said the book was part of an attempt by Italy's right to deflect accusations of intolerance against immigrants and other minorities by casting itself as the victim of non-Christian and liberal forces. "The right is reversing the argument" ...
If only we on the right were really that smart.

Generally we tend to believe that the truth will out. That the good guys always win. Which is why we usually lose.
6 posted on 06/03/2002 7:03:02 PM PDT by Asclepius
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To: LarryLied
As just one example, the Bolsheviks slaughtered 438 of the 453 Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church and tens of thousands of Orthodox priests Russia-wide (never hear about this, do we?). The Patriarch of Moscow became one of the victims of this garbage after he made this statement when a sewer in Red Square broke and flooded dead Lenin's Tomb with crap: "Myrrh for the relics of Bolshevism". How appropriate.
7 posted on 06/03/2002 7:15:21 PM PDT by laconic
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To: LarryLied
Thank you. It's not like it's unique, is it?
8 posted on 06/03/2002 7:18:22 PM PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: LarryLied
It's perfectly true. And most of them are being killed specifically because they are Christian. That was true in the Communist countries for almost 70 years, and it is true now in most of the Muslim countries.

You'd think the liberals would be up in arms after millions of blacks have been killed and enslaved in Sudan for instance, since blacks are an officially designated victim group. But it doesn't count, since they are Christians as well. That's almost as bad as a black Republican!

There is ample documentation. The Catholic Church has been working on a book of twentieth-century martyrs, and it has been established that more Christians were killed in the past century than in the previous nineteen. And little or nothing said about it.

9 posted on 06/03/2002 7:22:27 PM PDT by Cicero
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To: Cicero;Coleus;pax_et_bonum;Salvation;patent
Perhaps the tide is turning. The net is educating many. From Catholic Educators Resource Center

:

20TH CENTURY SAW 65% OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRS

Conclusions of New Study Published in Italy

ROME, (Zenit.org).- The 20th century may have been the most striking in the annals of Christian martyrdom, and a new book shows it with numbers.

In two millennia of Christian history, about 70 million faithful have given their lives for the faith, and of these, 45.5 million -- fully 65% -- were in the last century, according to "The New Persecuted" ("I Nuovi Perseguitati").

Italian journalist Antonio Socci presented his work today during a conference on "Anti-Christian Persecution in the 20th Century" held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

"I handed in the draft of the book in January; since then the martyrdom of Christians has had no letup," the author noted. "Suffice it to think of what is happening in Colombia and Indonesia."

In the journalist´s analysis, the term "Christian martyrs" is not understood in the specific sense of the word (with the recognition of the Church´s processes of canonization), but according to the common assessment of scholars who have compiled statistics on religious persecutions.

Socci´s map of the current persecution highlights countries where Christians are dying for their faith.

It includes the Molucca Islands of Indonesia, Bangladesh, India, Nigeria, East Timor, Cuba, the former Soviet republics, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, Vietnam, China and others.

According to the author, the two currents that fuel the persecution of Christians today are Communism and Muslim fundamentalism.

Socci said that persecution of Christians is currently most severe in Sudan.

Click here to share this news story with a friend.


10 posted on 06/03/2002 7:31:52 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
Good Article, and a good find.
Not that it's a suprise to Christians that there's persecution.....

Just ask 21st Century Chinese Christians about it.
11 posted on 06/03/2002 7:32:51 PM PDT by MissionMan
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To: LarryLied
...and a flawed definition of martyr which included those killed for political reasons.

Since to a communist EVERYTHING is political, the reasons for killing Christians would indeed be political. But it would still make them martyrs, since they were killed by an enemy of the Faith.

12 posted on 06/03/2002 7:35:54 PM PDT by ExpandNATO
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To: Cicero
I appaud the author of this book. It does not lessen the importance of the Shoah at all....it shows that the devil was and still is attacking ALL of GOD's TRUE BELIVERS....Christians and JEWS!!
13 posted on 06/03/2002 7:38:25 PM PDT by crazykatz
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To: laconic; spar; marmema; Travis Mcgee
It has been estimated that about 1 million Orthodox clergy and persons who worked for the Church were martyred by the commies MERELY FOR THEIR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.
14 posted on 06/03/2002 7:43:06 PM PDT by crazykatz
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To: ExpandNATO
..and a flawed definition of martyr which included those killed for political reasons.

Since to a communist EVERYTHING is political, the reasons for killing Christians would indeed be political.

Amazing claim isn't it? The exact same case could be made about the Holocaust. The author of this article exhibits the same bigotry of which he writes.

15 posted on 06/03/2002 7:49:32 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
Amazing claim isn't it? The exact same case could be made about the Holocaust. The author of this article exhibits the same bigotry of which he writes.

I had a feeling that was your reason for posting this, but I am still glad you did and bookmarked it. It saddens me, but take comfort that many true soldiers for Christ withstood horrible tortures and hideous death--perservering in the faith. Incidentally, today is the feast day of St. Charles Lwanga who withstood martyrdom that rivaled that of the early christians. I pray for an end to the bloodshed.

16 posted on 06/03/2002 7:56:53 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: LarryLied
said Alberto Melloni, an author and religious historian.
"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

Mr. Melloni sounds like a "historian" in the mold of Michael Bellesiles. His viewpoint is the only viewpoint that's allowed to be discussed; any differing viewpoint must involve heretical motives.

BTW, I didn't see anything in the article that infers Mr. Socci works for the Vatican. And I don't think the Oxford University Press is a bastion of Catholicism.

Get over it, Mr. Melloni. There have been victims other than you-know-who.

17 posted on 06/03/2002 7:57:00 PM PDT by jackliberty
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To: LarryLied
New book says Christians suffered most

Interesting. Benzion Netanyahu, the historian (father of the Israeli politician), says the same in his book
The Origins of the Inquisition (1995). Some controversy among historians, but no venom.

18 posted on 06/03/2002 7:57:07 PM PDT by Salman
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To: LarryLied
As soon as I dig up some doe I am putting a big fat Black Cross on My shoulder. On the other shoulder the shield of the USA. Not for decoration but for allegiance.
19 posted on 06/03/2002 8:01:25 PM PDT by bescobar
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To: LarryLied
Would Christian victims of 9/11 be Christian martyrs under this definition? It seems they would, as it seems to me the intent of the killers was to kill people based on their being non-Islamic as well as being Americans. Of course, there were numerous Islamic, and non-American victims as well.
20 posted on 06/03/2002 8:02:43 PM PDT by RonF
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To: Raymond Hendrix
Yeah.....that'll be the day.
21 posted on 06/03/2002 8:10:56 PM PDT by BenF
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To: LarryLied
amid accusations that it minimises the Holocaust and demonises Islam

Islam demonizes itself with its actions... or as Forrest Gump would say, "Stupid is as Stupid does."

22 posted on 06/03/2002 8:11:18 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: Cicero
more Christians were killed in the past century than in the previous nineteen

How much of the killing in those 19 centuries was done BY Christians?

23 posted on 06/03/2002 8:12:23 PM PDT by BenF
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To: LarryLied
And for the purposes of decency, if I judged you unfairly I apologize. regards.
24 posted on 06/03/2002 8:15:12 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: RonF
Of course, there were numerous Islamic, and non-American victims as well.

I guess they'd chalk that up to "collateral damage".[/sarcasm]

25 posted on 06/03/2002 8:16:15 PM PDT by Squawk 8888
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To: LarryLied
One unfortunate criticism of Christianity is the number of people killed by "religious" people. R.J. Rummel has written an amazing book called Death By Government. One review of the book on Amazon points out some of the statistics:

Begin quote
The author puts in perspective and lays it down in numbers to really show the impact of democide or genocide. The numbers pre-20th century are about 130,000,000 and only the 20th century around an unbelievable 169,198,000. No one would have guessed such. Also, the Nazis are generally considered as the most repressive regime, but Stalin is clearly the most corrupt at 61,911,000. The litany of torture and murder is definitely difficult to read, but important to be made known.
The greatest contribution of the author is his observation that absolute power kills as obeserved through totalitarism. The more democratic the society, the less destruction. As he summarizes, "The way to end war and virtually eliminate democide appears to be through restricting and checking Power ie. through fostering democratic freedom"
Also it is interesting to note in democratic regimes, only 2,000,000 were killed, 159,000 of its own peoples? Still too many, but contrast that with totalitarian and communist regimes at 138,000,000; 103,000,000 of its own people. You draw your own conclusions.
End quote

I hope this research, and the book mentioned in this thread will put to rest (I know, it won't) the totally unfounded criticism.

26 posted on 06/03/2002 8:34:08 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Teacher317,david_hunter
Islam demonizes itself with its actions... or as Forrest Gump would say, "Stupid is as Stupid does."

BRAVO!!!

I recently said something quite similar about the chechen terrorists.

27 posted on 06/03/2002 8:56:06 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: LarryLied
Muslims are killing all the non muslims they can I'm not religious but lets destroy Islam Deus Vult LOL.
28 posted on 06/03/2002 9:25:42 PM PDT by weikel
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To: Cicero
The modern left is not and never was interested in "human dignity" or civil rights. It's reason for being is to find justification for the rejection of God and Christ.
29 posted on 06/03/2002 9:30:47 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: LarryLied
The author, Antonio Socci, claims the untold story of the 20th century is the murder of 45 million Christians, mostly at the hands of communist and Islamic regimes, and that massacres continue to this day.

Well, at least the Communists killed more people than anyone else during the 20th century, and the Muslims conquered more territory and wiped out more language/ethnic groups (in a shorter amount of time) than any other religion.
30 posted on 06/03/2002 9:34:40 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: BenF
How much of the killing in those 19 centuries was done BY Christians?

Not many. Some occured, of course, during the Protestant revolt, but that is nothing compared to the reality of the past 100 years. For the most part, the wars waged against Islam incurred christiandom the most casualites, but it still dwarfs the numbers cited in the recent past.

31 posted on 06/03/2002 10:02:09 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: All
For information or if you would like to help--they need political support, information from victims and their families as well as donations--click on image:


32 posted on 06/03/2002 10:19:30 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: LarryLied
The persecution of any religious group must be acknowledged and it must be stopped. I think America insults, attacks, and demonizes its own citizens of the Christian faith through the mainstream media and so-called entertainment.
33 posted on 06/03/2002 10:31:07 PM PDT by luvzhottea
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To: ExpandNATO; JMJ333; jackliberty; bescobar; RonF; MarMema; Cicero; LarryLied...
Including the butchering of Serbs in Kosovo. The Christian community in Kosovo has been beheaded and gutted out thanks to NATO's little helpers the Muslim Albanians (a people whose kleadership happen to embrace both Islamic fundamentalisim and Maoist Marxism).

Catalog of churches destroyed and desecrated by Albanian extremists in Kosovo and Metohia (June-October 1999)

34 posted on 06/04/2002 12:10:20 AM PDT by Spar
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To: ExpandNATO; JMJ333; jackliberty; bescobar; RonF; MarMema; Cicero; LarryLied...
One example: THE HOLY TRINITY MONASTERY, Musutiste, near Suva Reka

The Monastery of the Holy Trinity was built in the 14th century on the Rusinica hill above Musutiste, 2 km to the south. In the valuable collection of manuscripts from 14 th to 18 th century there were a Book of Commemoration from 1465 and a hand-written Gospel from the 14 th century. The monastery also had a collection of icons from the 19th century -- 1868-1985.

The Holy Trinity Monastery before destruction

Bishop Atanasije and Fr. Kingsley Joyce (British KFOR) visited the monastery 7 days before it was completely destroyed by Albanians

A nun in front of the destroyed church

The residental quarters for nuns

The view of the destroyed church and the burned residental quarters

Desecrated monastic cemetery

In the second half of June 1999, after the German KFOR troops deployed in the area, Albanian extremists vandalized this holy place and plundered the valuables. Between 10th and 17th July they dynamited the monastery church so that it is now completely destroyed. The monastery konak (residential quarters) was previously burned to the ground. The valuable library, and its icons, disappeared in the flames and wreckage. The church was obviously destroyed by explosive used by experts with military training.

35 posted on 06/04/2002 12:18:59 AM PDT by Spar
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To: JMJ333
Not many.

The Crusades, the Inquisition, the genocide committed against the Native Americans....I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea. My question was obnoxious and completely out of line given the subject of the thread. However, your response simply isn't true.

36 posted on 06/04/2002 3:23:56 AM PDT by BenF
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To: Raymond Hendrix
I apologize for my posting of last night. Unfortunately, I was in a foul mood and took it out on you. I understand your bitterness.
37 posted on 06/04/2002 3:25:16 AM PDT by BenF
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To: Cicero
I apologize for my posting of last night. My post was obnoxious and out of line with the subject of the thread. I should not have asked it. I hope you can forgive me.
38 posted on 06/04/2002 3:26:28 AM PDT by BenF
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To: luvzhottea
Christianity is 'trashed' in the media here for the combination of three factors. First, Christianity is unquestionably the dominate, majority religion in the US. Secondly, our first amendment freedoms allow people to express their opinions whether they are popular or not. The government isn't supposed to harrass you about it. Thirdly, unlike Muslims, Christians are not likely to put out a death contract against you for uttering disparaging remarks.

Now, I'll exercise my freedom of speech and make a comment about this entire thread - I find it ironic that a group of supposedly conservative people are trying to build a case to support their victimhood status, especially when most have never personally encounterd threats directed at themselves because of their religious affiliation.

39 posted on 06/04/2002 3:59:36 AM PDT by Diverdogz
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To: Diverdogz
The point is to shove what they did in the face of the left. For decades they have suppressed history.
40 posted on 06/04/2002 6:47:42 AM PDT by LarryLied
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To: BenF
The crusades were against the moslems.

I also have a great article about the inquisition that pretty much deflates the liberal propaganda taught against Isabella and Spain during that time. If you want to read it, I will be happy to send it.

The slaughter of native Americans is not christians killing one another, and I am unsure why you bring that up. To outline that we really are the murderers instead of the sufferers?

And why are you trying to imply that we suffered and died by our own hands anyway? Do you have something against our suffering? Doest it bother you that we are persecuted? Why? What does it take away from Jewish suffering? Nothing. Have a little sympathy for us. I do for your people.

41 posted on 06/04/2002 7:58:15 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Please note my posting #26 above.
42 posted on 06/04/2002 8:12:44 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: JMJ333;Spar;laconic;Carry_Okie;Cicero;MissionMan;crazykatz; jackliberty
On January 12, 1988, The Village Voice published an articles entitled "In search of a Soviet holocaust: A 55-Year-Old Famine Feeds the Right" in which Robert Conquest's account of the murder of 7 million Chrisitans in his book The Harvest of Sorrow is called "unverifiable."
43 posted on 06/04/2002 8:13:58 AM PDT by LarryLied
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To: BenF
I saw that you were in a foul mood last night. Apology accepted. Christians have died though at the hands of others more often then at the hands of other Christians. Christians in China, Africa, and the Middle East are being heavily persecuted to this day. Catholic martyrology for 2001 alone was stunning.
44 posted on 06/04/2002 8:16:32 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: LiteKeeper
Thanks. =)
45 posted on 06/04/2002 8:21:19 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Spar
Post 35 is depressing. My condolences to the orthodox who have suffered so much at the hands of the Albanians.
46 posted on 06/04/2002 8:29:56 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
The crusades were against the moslems.

Primarily. However, many Jewish communities were wiped out on the way to the Holy Land.

I also have a great article about the inquisition that pretty much deflates the liberal propaganda taught against Isabella and Spain during that time. If you want to read it, I will be happy to send it.

I'm not sure what liberal propaganda you're talking about.

The slaughter of native Americans is not christians killing one another, and I am unsure why you bring that up. To outline that we really are the murderers instead of the sufferers?

Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one. I had recently been having a discussion with someone who insisted that both sides of the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict should hear the message of Jesus and it got under my skin.

And why are you trying to imply that we suffered and died by our own hands anyway? Do you have something against our suffering?

Well, I would rather not see anyone suffer.

Doest it bother you that we are persecuted? Why?

Yes, it does. Because I'm Jewish with Jewish values and don't want to see anyone persecuted.

What does it take away from Jewish suffering? Nothing.

Agreed on this.

Have a little sympathy for us. I do for your people.

I do. However, I do recognize that part of the problem is a philosophy which enables Christians to murder other peoples or themselves seemingly in the name of their faith. For example (and I'll never understand this one), in Ireland you have two groups of Christians murdering each other with regularity. Explain the Christian attitudes behind that one.

47 posted on 06/04/2002 9:37:42 AM PDT by BenF
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To: Catholic_List
ping!
48 posted on 06/04/2002 9:42:36 AM PDT by BlessedBeGod
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To: LarryLied
Further resource materials:

Christianity on Trial : Arguments Against Anti-Religious Bigotry
by Vincent Carroll, David Shiflett
A book by a opinon page editor for a Denver newspaper, finds that while Christians
were bad-boys at points of history, today's popular history is not a fair picture


A Concise History of the Crusades
by Thomas F. Madden
As profiled in an article by Madden in Crisis Magazine, the Crusades were defensive campaigns
in response to an Islam that only understood advancement by the sword.


www.voiceofthemartyrs.org

Listen to The Dennis Prager Show (www.newstalk870.com; 9-12 AM PacTime, M-F); this
conservative Jewish commentator will occasionally have a show about the persecution
of Christians worldwide. Prager marvels that American Christians are so silent on the issue.
49 posted on 06/04/2002 9:47:05 AM PDT by VOA
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To: BenF
Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one.

So the 7+ million Christians murdered in the Ukraine had it coming to them. Ok, I get it.

50 posted on 06/04/2002 9:51:51 AM PDT by LarryLied
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