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New book says Christians suffered most
The Guardian UK ^ | 6/04/02 | Rory Carroll in Rome

Posted on 06/03/2002 6:55:44 PM PDT by LarryLied

A new book which claims that Christians are the victims of worldwide persecution has stirred controversy in Italy amid accusations that it minimises the Holocaust and demonises Islam.

The author, Antonio Socci, claims the untold story of the 20th century is the murder of 45 million Christians, mostly at the hands of communist and Islamic regimes, and that massacres continue to this day.

The New Persecuted, Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs, has angered some scholars by depicting Christians as beleaguered victims of rampaging Muslims.

Some reviewers have hailed the publication as a wake-up call to Christians in the west who have not realised, even in the wake of September 11, that they are under attack by a hostile rival religion.

Others said Mr Socci was part of a rightwing revisionist effort to distort history and promote a hawkish response to perceived threats.

Drawing heavily from the World Christian Encyclopedia, published last year by the Oxford University Press, Mr Socci traces the persecution of Christians through the centuries, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the lions at Circus Maximus, the assassination of Thomas Becket and the execution of Thomas More, the Boxer rebellion in China, Mexico's revolution and the Turkish massacres in Armenia. He calculates that in the past 2,000 years some 70 million Christians have been killed, two-thirds in the past 100 years alone, a bloodbath blamed mostly on the Soviet Union as well as communist China and Nazi Germany.

Mr Socci supports Israel and does not dispute the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust but by framing the genocide in such a context he had minimised its significance, said Alberto Melloni, an author and religious historian.

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

Mr Socci, 43, a columnist with conservative Italian newspapers, claims that an average of 160,000 Christians have been killed every year since 1990, the vast majority in the third world. Critics said the figure included Christians killed in conflicts which had little to do with religion.

Chronicling attacks, pogroms and wars in East Timor, Indonesia, Sudan, Egypt, Pakistan, India, and even Rwanda and Latin America, Mr Socci identifies Islamic extremism as the main danger.

He complains that secular western governments, intellectuals and media organisations have played down the bloodbath because the persecution of Jews and Muslims, whether in the former Soviet Union or former Yugoslavia, was considered more newsworthy. "This global persecution of Christianity is still in progress but in most cases is ignored by the mass media and Christians in the west."

Tommaso Debenedetti, a cultural commentator, said the book was part of an attempt by Italy's right to deflect accusations of intolerance against immigrants and other minorities by casting itself as the victim of non-Christian and liberal forces. "The right is reversing the argument."

Breaking ranks with positive reviews which called the book "extraordinary", the Turin daily La Stampa said it was a provocation with questionable statistics and a flawed definition of martyr which included those killed for political reasons.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; christianpersecutio
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To: BenF
The crusades were against the moslems.

I also have a great article about the inquisition that pretty much deflates the liberal propaganda taught against Isabella and Spain during that time. If you want to read it, I will be happy to send it.

The slaughter of native Americans is not christians killing one another, and I am unsure why you bring that up. To outline that we really are the murderers instead of the sufferers?

And why are you trying to imply that we suffered and died by our own hands anyway? Do you have something against our suffering? Doest it bother you that we are persecuted? Why? What does it take away from Jewish suffering? Nothing. Have a little sympathy for us. I do for your people.

41 posted on 06/04/2002 7:58:15 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Please note my posting #26 above.
42 posted on 06/04/2002 8:12:44 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: JMJ333;Spar;laconic;Carry_Okie;Cicero;MissionMan;crazykatz; jackliberty
On January 12, 1988, The Village Voice published an articles entitled "In search of a Soviet holocaust: A 55-Year-Old Famine Feeds the Right" in which Robert Conquest's account of the murder of 7 million Chrisitans in his book The Harvest of Sorrow is called "unverifiable."
43 posted on 06/04/2002 8:13:58 AM PDT by LarryLied
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To: BenF
I saw that you were in a foul mood last night. Apology accepted. Christians have died though at the hands of others more often then at the hands of other Christians. Christians in China, Africa, and the Middle East are being heavily persecuted to this day. Catholic martyrology for 2001 alone was stunning.
44 posted on 06/04/2002 8:16:32 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: LiteKeeper
Thanks. =)
45 posted on 06/04/2002 8:21:19 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Spar
Post 35 is depressing. My condolences to the orthodox who have suffered so much at the hands of the Albanians.
46 posted on 06/04/2002 8:29:56 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
The crusades were against the moslems.

Primarily. However, many Jewish communities were wiped out on the way to the Holy Land.

I also have a great article about the inquisition that pretty much deflates the liberal propaganda taught against Isabella and Spain during that time. If you want to read it, I will be happy to send it.

I'm not sure what liberal propaganda you're talking about.

The slaughter of native Americans is not christians killing one another, and I am unsure why you bring that up. To outline that we really are the murderers instead of the sufferers?

Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one. I had recently been having a discussion with someone who insisted that both sides of the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict should hear the message of Jesus and it got under my skin.

And why are you trying to imply that we suffered and died by our own hands anyway? Do you have something against our suffering?

Well, I would rather not see anyone suffer.

Doest it bother you that we are persecuted? Why?

Yes, it does. Because I'm Jewish with Jewish values and don't want to see anyone persecuted.

What does it take away from Jewish suffering? Nothing.

Agreed on this.

Have a little sympathy for us. I do for your people.

I do. However, I do recognize that part of the problem is a philosophy which enables Christians to murder other peoples or themselves seemingly in the name of their faith. For example (and I'll never understand this one), in Ireland you have two groups of Christians murdering each other with regularity. Explain the Christian attitudes behind that one.

47 posted on 06/04/2002 9:37:42 AM PDT by BenF
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To: Catholic_List
ping!
48 posted on 06/04/2002 9:42:36 AM PDT by BlessedBeGod
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To: LarryLied
Further resource materials:

Christianity on Trial : Arguments Against Anti-Religious Bigotry
by Vincent Carroll, David Shiflett
A book by a opinon page editor for a Denver newspaper, finds that while Christians
were bad-boys at points of history, today's popular history is not a fair picture


A Concise History of the Crusades
by Thomas F. Madden
As profiled in an article by Madden in Crisis Magazine, the Crusades were defensive campaigns
in response to an Islam that only understood advancement by the sword.


www.voiceofthemartyrs.org

Listen to The Dennis Prager Show (www.newstalk870.com; 9-12 AM PacTime, M-F); this
conservative Jewish commentator will occasionally have a show about the persecution
of Christians worldwide. Prager marvels that American Christians are so silent on the issue.
49 posted on 06/04/2002 9:47:05 AM PDT by VOA
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To: BenF
Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one.

So the 7+ million Christians murdered in the Ukraine had it coming to them. Ok, I get it.

50 posted on 06/04/2002 9:51:51 AM PDT by LarryLied
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To: BenF
Primarily. However, many Jewish communities were wiped out on the way to the Holy Land.

No denying that it happened during some of the Crusade campaign, but apparently
against the wishes of some of the poobahs of the Catholic hierarchy.

Reference thread on "The Real History of The Crusades"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/691603/posts


Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one.
I had recently been having a discussion with someone who insisted that both sides
of the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict should hear the message of Jesus and it got under my skin.


Can understand why it should.
Problem is: too many "Christians" thoughout history have not just read the
New Testament (along with the Old Testament) and simply lived by what is on those pages.

Check Dennis Prager as in my post #49. Although some evangelical Christians do
have an "agenda" with supporting Israel, a lot of us "cultural Christians"
are for Israel because we see them as the beleagured party.

For example (and I'll never understand this one), in Ireland you have two groups of
Christians murdering each other with regularity. Explain the Christian attitudes
behind that one.


I think radio show host Michael Medved has tussled with that one. I think (IIRC) that that
mess could be summed up as a bunch of "Christians" from England oppressing
other fairly peaceable Christians in Ireland for hundred of years.
Sad truth is that both parties "went off the page" as far as what the founder of their
religion had to say about conduct between civilized human beings.
51 posted on 06/04/2002 9:58:19 AM PDT by VOA
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To: BenF
Primarily. However, many Jewish communities were wiped out on the way to the Holy Land.

There are only two condemned instances in the history of the crusades where the Christian crusaders acted unjustly--The sack of Jerusalem and the Sack of Constantinople, both of which were unjustified and immoral. Those wars themselves remained just. I will not offer an excuse for the men who sacked Jerusalem and for the innocent Jews who died when it happened, but I will say that the crusaders freed the Holy Land from the moslems at that point. Their anger was pent up after the moslems poisened the wells around Jerusalem, forcing the men to lick blades of grass to get water. Immoral things happen sometimes in war--and again, I am not making a justification. That is the only time when innocent Jews were harmed by the crusaders.

I'm not sure what liberal propaganda you're talking about.

The Spanish Inquisition, by Anne W. Carroll.

Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one. I had recently been having a discussion with someone who insisted that both sides of the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict should hear the message of Jesus and it got under my skin.

Yes, it is bloody, but most of it was unprovoked. The Christian nations in Europe never once were the aggressors. Not once. It is certainly appropriate that we defend ourselves and our nations just as the Jews and Israel do. The person who you had that conversation with is a nitwit and not indicitive of true believers in Christ. Every religion has their share of less than inteligent people.

I do. However, I do recognize that part of the problem is a philosophy which enables Christians to murder other peoples or themselves seemingly in the name of their faith. For example (and I'll never understand this one), in Ireland you have two groups of Christians murdering each other with regularity. Explain the Christian attitudes behind that one.

Easy. Anyone can claim to be anything--that doesn't make it so. Those who use violence in Ireland know about God as much as those in other places who use violence.

Regardless, Communism has devestated the Christian community. Just look at what Pol Pot did. We did nothing to incur his wrath. Nothing at all except stand up for what we believe.

52 posted on 06/04/2002 10:01:33 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: BenF
My post #51 to you is just my opinion.
And will understand if there are points on which we'll "agree to disagree".

The whole topic of the interaction of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity is such a complex issue.
I think the author that used the title "From Time Immemorial" when writing about the
Middle East hit the nail on the head.
53 posted on 06/04/2002 10:02:09 AM PDT by VOA
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To: BenF
Also in the most recent past...

Islam which is at war with Christianity all over the world --the Sudan where Omar Bashir has slaughtered over a million black Christians, and northern Iraq, where fanatic moslems have been murdering Asyrian Christians. Then there is East Timor, where roving bands of moslems ripped the heads off Christians and paraded them around on the ends of sharps sticks, and we can't leave out the Balkans, Israel, and of course the United States.

We neither provoked nor deserved any of it.

54 posted on 06/04/2002 10:04:17 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: LarryLied
New Century of Martyrs

What a title!

55 posted on 06/04/2002 10:04:45 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: BenF; JMJ333
The crusades were a mistake and were due to the Pope's attempt at a power grab against the "Eastern" Roman Empire. The Emperor requested military assistance from the Pope against the Turks, who unlike Arab Muslims butchered Christian pilgrims (Arabs just took payments from them). The Emperor was not so concerned about the pilgrims as he was concerned with the depopulation of Asia Minor of its Christians and severe battlefield reverses.

Instead of the Emperor's request for the Pope funding of professional mercenaries for the effort the Pope created a version of Christian jihad that did not and does not exist in Christianity. In fact in the Orthodox Church killing even in battle is still a sin. The Crusades failed everyone Catholic, Orthodox and even Muslims since it allowed the Islamic world to embrace the warlike Turks who upon taking power decimated Islamic centers of learning through their barbarity.

The respected Saladin, a Kurd (from a Kurdistan that was once both Zoroastrian and Christian before Islam) was the last none Turk to rule the Middle East until the 20th century.

Under the Turks the richest most educated areas of the planet, the Middle East, Balkans and the Eastern Mediterranean became a backwards world still not recovered.

56 posted on 06/04/2002 10:05:20 AM PDT by Spar
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To: Cicero
It's perfectly true. And most of them are being killed specifically because they are Christian.

Burhams in the Phillipines
bombing of the church in Pakistan

I know there other examples. Maybe we could BumpList them or do a "Christian Martyrs Chronolgy.

57 posted on 06/04/2002 10:08:36 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: Spar
I'm sorry, but that just isn't true. I don't have time to post my links, as I am going to the store for ice cream, but if you go to my profile and click the threads entitled "Christiandom vs. Islam" [there are two of them] you will get an excellent overview of the truth about our crusades. I stand by every word written in them.
58 posted on 06/04/2002 10:09:20 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: LarryLied
"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

Yes, don't you know that Jews have a monopoly on suffering? How ludicrous. This guy should be blasted for minimizing the suffering of Christians.
59 posted on 06/04/2002 10:10:05 AM PDT by Antoninus
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To: BenF
The Crusades, the Inquisition, the genocide committed against the Native Americans....

Ben,
The Catholic Church is composed of humans like you and me who are subject to error. In the examples you have given, yes, mistakes were made, apologies have been given (to those who wished to listen)and we can hope for a better world -- remembering that we are mere human beings trying to do God's will here on earth and not always succeeding.

60 posted on 06/04/2002 10:14:51 AM PDT by Salvation
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