Skip to comments.The Biological Case Against Race
Posted on 06/04/2002 5:24:31 PM PDT by cornelis
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Yep, the The Biology g.
There is also the same difference between chimps and mice. Which means that genetic variation does not prove very much. One of the discoveries of the genome project was that some 95% of DNA is not part of a gene. These comparisons were made only with respect to genes, not with respect to the rest of the DNA so they are but a small part of what makes an organism. We have known for a while that the DNA which was not in genes played an important role in development of an organism, however we did not realize how large a part of the genome it was. So it seems that evolutionists have been proven wrong again by real scientists. They should be used to it by now.
There clearly are racial differences, as groups, that are genetic, and not just cosmetic ones. Individually, it's one person at a time.
But myself and several others have already said that, six ways from Sunday. So I guess I should start using as an example the lower reading comprehension level of the politically correct crowd.
No. It does not translate to that. It is that. No translation necessary.
On this issue you are saying the Earth is the center of the universe.
It saddens me to see such irrationality and defensiveness on something so straighforward.
Anyhow, you bozos try one's patience.
Like talking to dyed in the wool Clintonites.
I got your proof right here, Delbert.
Rest assured, I am correct.
If race has a biological basis, please list all the races and the specific genes and traits defining the races.
Otherwise do us and your overtaxed miniscule gray matter all a favor and shut your ignorant blathering babbling boring mouths.
That will be all.
Best fishes all. Look forward to your tables with the info you of xourse can provide.
Just because there are examples of dominance in a sport that is apparently not due to biology (Russian chess) doesn't mean that it never happens (West African sprinters).
Just because some racial differences (skin color, eye shape, average size, ...) are cosmetic doesn't mean that all racial differences are cosmetic.
Just because this is a conservative forum doesn't mean there aren't some participants here trapped in Politically Correct thinking.
Just because I've read two articles by Mr. Graves today doesn't mean I ever want to read another word of his.
Then list them.
List the biological differences you refer to.
Coincidental? No, it's cultural.
My presumption is that in all manner of human endeavors, there are measurable differences, by race, age, gender, and just about any other classification. None of which does me any good when I'm hiring -- then it's the best person for the position in question, of what ever stripe. Group statistical differences are useless in sorting out job candidates, unless perhaps one has to deal in bulk with thousands or millions at a time (as applies in the case of our airport screeners, not that the liberal powers that be would admit it). The P.C. crowd makes it rough on people who point this out. It makes it difficult for people to even be honest with themselves on this subject.
An essential part of the liberal ideology is that we all deserve the same result, that differences in outcome are signs of social, cultural, racial or economic bias that should be corrected, and that we can build heaven on earth. We're not all equal. We're different, however you slice us. I can code better, sing worse, and play worse basketball than perhaps anyone on this thread. And short of my forgetting how to code (program computers) there ain't a damn thing anyone here can do about any of this. There is a higher authority -- it is our destiny and responsibility to each live our lives as best we can. Saying that manifest differences in outcome (more of this race is succeeding in some way than another) are due to cultural bias is a dangerous sign of the prejudice of reduced expectations, and an invitation to more federal and world centralization of power to correct such errors of human planning. Only the tyrants of the world benefit from such excessive centralization of power.
God grants us equality of opportunity, to reach for our own best, to strive to understand and act in harmony with the order of the universe. The only equality of outcome is lowest common denominator for all -- which puts us all in prison or the gas chamber last I looked.
Humans don't get to build heaven -- we get to search for it.
If you're referring to a twin study that claims that 50% of the identical twins who are themselves homosexual, have a homosexual twin, there are some serious problems with that study. The first is that the sample population was self-selected by responding to adds in the back of homosexual publications.
Other less-skewed twin studies have given numbers between 10% and 20%.
But there's a problem even calling those 10% to 20% evidence of a genetic link to homosexuality... because the nature vs. nurture debate is a false dilemma. There is a third possibility...
Numerous factors can affect pre-natal development. One particulary vulnerable phase occurs when that XY chromosome kicks in the hormones and turns an externally female fetus into the male it was genetically destined to be.
What if pre-natal conditions are somehow less than optimal during that hormone surge? What is the impact on the later sexual preference of that fetus?
We don't really know, but we know that identical twins share an identical pre-natal environment.
Basically, what the twin studies of homosexuals indicates is that the cause is most likely not genetic. Here's why...
Eye color is genetic. 100% of the identical twins with blue eyes have a blue eyed twin. But when twin studies of homosexuality give an identical correlation of 10% or 20% (heck, even 50%), then we know for a fact that homosexuality isn't genetic in 50% to 90% of the cases. The bottom line is that nurture and pre-natal probably account for the bulk of the rest.
After all, wouldn't a "gay gene" have a hard time perpetuating itself?
Hard to escape the fact that homosexuals are absolutely always procreated heterosexually.
But we don't need to wait. If we see with our own eyes that two traits almost always appear together, why isn't that sufficient proof that the two are related? And thus make a strong statistical inference that with A I almost always get B?
Denying the existence of races in human is comparable to denying the existence of breeds in dogs - as well as their differences.
When you have
For Eastern European Jews, a common factor was that their occupations were limited to things like merchant, tradesman, and money-lender -- all of which have people surviving better if they are intelligent, with strength and speed being not that relevant.
Life in sub-Saharan Africa was such that hunting large critters paid a big part of it, and defending against hostile critters and other tribes was another big factor. Athletic ability, combined with an ability to remain aware of your buddies' position in the hunt/fight, combined with an ability to make quick decisions in a rapidly moving and chaotic situation were big survival factors. These characteristics also come in very handy in sports like basketball and football.
But I will set you straight.
This is not a political issue.
To the extent it is and can be politicized, the absence of objective consistent biological definition of race does not coinicide with the liberal worldview. Liberal thought places categorization, including race as a number one, of people as important and essential.
You boys are very very mixed up as to what conservatism is and unaware of how you share the liberal worldview with all the victims and Jesse Jacksons and social engineers etc...
No. If you do the crime, you do the time. No exceptions. Get the criminals off the street. The three strikes approach has been exceptionally effective in reducing crime by removing the repeat offenders from the streets.
The link is HERE
I will gladly peruse contrary articles anyone has to offer.
Tell that to Taiwan
Religion: mixture of Buddhist, Confucian, and Taoist - 93%
Religion: observe both Shinto and Buddhist - 84%
Source: CIA World FactBook
If you'll pardon me, you seem to display a rather limited understanding of genetic inheritance and statistical analysis. Mebbe, instead requiring that skin tone and athleticism be being gentically linked, we merely hypothesize that they are correlated.
There is certainly a significant amount of evidence for such, as reported here. People of east African descent dominate endurance running. People of west African descent dominate the sprints. (By memory, of the 300 fastest sprinters in the world, 297 are of west African descent.)
All of which can be summed up as follows:
"BDF" and "So what?"
The canard that human genetic studies show that we all share a 99% identical genetic pattern is exactly that...a canard in my view. We also share a 98% identical genetic pattern with chimps. That 1 percent between us and chimps obviously accounts for some serious differences. If so, then why would not the same 1% variations between human race and even amongst the sub groups of said races also account for some undeniable differences? We are 90% identical genetically with mice as well? LOL....now that's a 10% diference I'm glad we were granted.
That's rather obvious.
Both liberal and conservative thought must deal with the self evident differences amongst peoples. The key difference is the conclusion they reach, whether or not it justifies centrally mandated and enforced homogenization of outcomes.
Liberal thought blames social, cultural and economic inequities for causing these categorizations, which is exactly what Graves is doing. Then liberals can justify more centralized power to address these inequities. In their view, these inequities (and other calamities, such as global warming) are man made, and we (the collective we, really meaning them, the would be tyrants) should fix them. The collective improperly assumes the role of God. Hubris.
Conservative thought recognizes that there are God given or natural categorizations and differences. It is fitting and proper that there will be a wide variety of outcomes, depending on our individual capabilities, energy, resolve, genetics, upbringing, situation and a bit of luck. We each individually have the responsibility to be the best we can be. Central government has a limited role to provide for the common defense and provide a fair legal and economic framework. Fairness not measured by equal outcomes, but by equal opportunity, within practical limits. A moral authority beyond our understanding, or at least beyond our power to manipulate, determines the outcomes.
It states it well.
I am not interested in the author's other views.
The fellow you link to is, to be nice, a bit eccentric.
(And of most importance, not correct in his assertions of fact).
This issue is not like evolution or other matters. It observed and clear cut.
There is no reason to argue about it.
You mistake these obvious facts about biology with the greater questions of race that are social and poltical.
You can't do it.
Of course. And they are not biologically defined in most cases (except in genetic diseases or conditions -- but that's not what you mean).
As a side note, for perspective, this is a basic teaching of the Bible as well that the differences you speak of and I agree exist are not biologically defined.
Would you be kind enough to point out where you saw that comment? I do not recognize it as something I said. Thanks. - William Tell
Bingo...and the author washes right over "race as genetic" vs. "race as typical of culture", and blends them together then claims that they are claimed to be gene-based.
What Bible do you use?
Mine is the one with the Old and New Testaments.
A combination of one or two "gay genes" could very easily define a predisposition towards homosexuality. It would then be possible to define a person not as gay or straight but as relatively gayer or straighter than the population. People on either extreme would hard-pressed to choose the opposite of their natural inclination. People closer towards the middle would be more fluid in their attractions and choice of partners.
There are straights with one or two past homosexual experiences who go on to marry and raise a family. These might be people who are mostly straight, but near enough to the boundry that a cross-over isn't unthinkable.
Conversly there are individuals gay of center who try to follow conventional norms, marry, and have a family only to later realize that they are morbidly unhappy in a hetero lifestyle. Hard to escape the fact that homosexuals are absolutely always procreated heterosexually.
Hard to escape the fact that homosexuals are absolutely always procreated heterosexually.
Not really; it's basic genetics. Remember high school biology class? There are two allels for every gene. If there is a gay gene, and if it is recessive (a reasonable assumption), you will never be able to "breed it out of existence" because a person with the Gay/Straight combination will be indistinguishable from a Straight/Straight individual, but will be a "carrier" for homosexual tendencies.
Disclaimer: All of the above is conjecture and hypothesis on my part, but it does seem to fit the annecdotal facts and observations.