Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

TWA Flight 800 - Witness Fred Meyer reportedly says "I suspect that Bill Donaldson was murdered."
Yahoo TWA 800 Forum ^ | Jun 12, 2002 | Richard Savage

Posted on 06/12/2002 2:07:01 PM PDT by Asmodeus

Yahoo TWA 800 forum
Message #8272
From:Richard Savage
Date:  Wed Jun 12, 2002  5:17 am
Subject:  Fritz

Here's something I got from Major Meyer.
 
Rick; I'm not "sick" of this  stuff, but I do have two children to raise alone and don't have the time some folks have. I encourage all to keep the fires burning. The most serious consequence of this tragedy is how effectively our government deceived the people. We must expose them. !) I have not conducted an investigation; I have been privy to others conducting investigations whom I shall not name since I suspect that Bill Donaldson was murdered.  Lisa Perry  is the best witness of all I have interviewed. However , she fears for her safety and is being urged by her husband and family members to " keep a low profile".  She gave us the details of her observations in Oct. '96; long before careful investigation confirmed everything that she said. The time frames must always be discounted because, it seems , adrenalin changes one's internal clock. The three persons in my A/C all concurred 2 days later that we thought the entire sequence took about 10 seconds.  I won't give any info to anyone about her since I don't know you, and believe she is in real danger. At least two persons key to this inquirey have died mysteriously.  Mike Wire has been willing to come forward before. I shall ask him if he wants to communicate with you. However I will explain to him that I do not know your background and cannot vouch for you. .FCM


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government
KEYWORDS: twa800list; twaflight800
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-53 next last
Donaldson Brothers TWA800 Website
Cmdr. Donaldson Hospitalized
Dear Friends of Bill,

This will be a difficult letter to write, but it must be done.

Some of you may know that Bill was scheduled for back surgery to rectify some lower back problems such as weakness in his legs. More recently he began to experience weakness in his left arm and a couple of weeks ago he began to loose some vision in his left eye.

On Monday, January 22nd, Bill's wife took him to the emergency room at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington where an initial CAT scan showed a brain tumor. Over the next few days many other tests were done and on Thursday he had a detailed MRI which showed that there was not one, but two tumors. The largest of the tumors was located in an area which was accessible, but close to the brain stem. The other, much smaller tumor is in an area of the brain that is not operable. On Friday morning, January 26th, the neuro surgeons at Walter Reed performed a 6 hour operation and removed as much as they could of the larger tumor. The part touching the brain stem could not be removed. Bill spent Saturday and Sunday in the Intensive Care Unit and was transferred on Monday to the general Neurosurgery ward where is recuperating. He is alert and cracking jokes about the permanent part in his thinning hair. His progress over the last two days has been excellent. He has regained some of the use of his left arm and left leg and began walking today. If he continues to improve he may be transferred to a rehabilitation center nearer to his home in Southern Maryland early next week or possibly as early as the end of this week.

His long term prognosis is still uncertain. The doctors will not speculate until they see the results of the biopsy but their initial reaction was not very encouraging. They plan both radiation and chemotherapy, but we don't know when that will start or how effective it will be.

In the meantime, he is surrounded by his family and friends but could use a couple of extra prayers.

Some of you have been asking about his surgery thinking it was the long planned back operation. I was reluctant to say anything until he could advise me how he wanted to handle this. For that I apologize. This morning I asked him what he wanted me to tell people and his reaction was typical: " Just tell them the truth!", "Its a fact, we can't change that.".."Just tell it like it is". It's too bad that our government doesn't have the same faith in people's ability to handle the truth as Bill Donaldson.

Bob Donaldson

Donaldson Brothers TWA800 Website
Updates on Cmdr. Donaldson's Condition

Associated Retired Aviation Professionals
Post Office Box 90, Clements, Maryland 20624 USA


Dear Friends of Bill,

Bill passed away yesterday afternoon.
The following obituary will appear in the local papers in St. Mary's County, MD, Virginia Beach, VA and Kingsville, TX.  Thanks for all of your prayers and support.

Bob

CDR William S. Donaldson, III, USN (Ret)
William S. Donaldson, 56, a retired Navy Attack Pilot, a nationally recognized aircraft crash investigator and local member of the Planning and Zoning Commission, died of a brain tumor August 22 at the Charlotte Hall Veterans Home in St. Mary’s County Maryland.

Bill Donaldson was an All-State football player at the Rancocos Valley Regional High School in New Jersey where he won a Football Scholarship to the University of Maryland and has since been inducted into the RVRHS Hall of Fame. He joined the Navy and entered flight school in 1965 and in 1968 he flew more than 70 Strike missions over North Vietnam and Laos in an A-4 Skyhawk off the aircraft carrier Intrepid.  In later years he was the Air Traffic Control Officer on the carrier Forrestal and flew an A-6 Intruder off the carrier Eisenhower.  In the mid 1980’s he was assigned to NATO in Naples Italy as a Nuclear Weapons Targeting Officer.  Over his career he held assignments as Safety Officer and had extensive training in aircraft crash investigation and investigated numerous crashes, including one that was accidentally shot down by a missile.  Bill was awarded the Defense Meritorious Service Medal; the Air Medal, 7th Award; Navy Commendation Medal (with Combat “V”) and numerous other medals and awards.

Bill retired from the Navy in 1991 and moved back to his family home on St. Clements Bay where he took up farming and was appointed to the St. Mary’s County Planning and Zoning Commission.  In 1997, after reading an editorial by the Chairman of the NTSB about the tragic crash of TWA Flight 800, Bill had a letter to the editor published in the Wall Street Journal that began a 4 year effort to bring to light the true cause of the crash.  Over that time he was interviewed on several hundred radio programs and appeared on several national TV broadcasts as an expert aircraft crash investigator and vocal critic of the NTSB and FBI investigation.  He founded the Associated Retired Aviation Professionals (ARAP) and started a website, twa800.com, to document the many discrepancies in the “official” version of the crash and to the end remained committed to proving that the aircraft was shot down.  He was not alone in this crusade as there are hundreds of other aviation professionals who will carry on the fight.

Bill is survived by his wife Joyce, one son, Michael of Houston TX, a daughter, Teresa of Avenue, Maryland, three grandchildren, Christopher, Hailey and Hana, one brother, Robert who lives in Falls Church, Virginia, and two nieces Jennifer & Jessica.

The family will receive friends at Brinsfield Funeral Home Sunday evening from 6-8 pm.  The funeral service will be held at Christ Church, Chaptico Maryland, 10 am, Monday, August 27th.  In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to the 7th District Rescue Squad, Avenue, Maryland, 20609.

Home - Last Updated: 


 © 2000 William S. Donaldson III.  All rights reserved


1 posted on 06/12/2002 2:07:02 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Didn't know him, but sad to hear this hear about Donaldson passing.

What would indicate murder? Obit says he died of a brain tumor.

2 posted on 06/12/2002 2:20:57 PM PDT by Freedom of Speech Wins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Freedom of Speech Wins
Meyer was one of two people in the helicopter just off shore where TWA was hit. He believed he saw a missle strike the plane.
3 posted on 06/12/2002 2:26:33 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Are you really Elmer Barr ? I recall reading your stuff on one of the new sites about 4 years ago and my impression is that you were a one trick pony who couldn't see the flaws in your logic about the sequence of events. I recall folks who were far more knowledgeable that the typical FReeper easily pulling apart your calculations. What disturbed me most was the complete lack of acknowledging any weakness on your arguments part but instead a mantra like restatement of your original premise. When confronted by posters like that I assume they have an agenda and become distrustfull of their analysis.
4 posted on 06/12/2002 2:32:35 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Before this thread gets pulled, let me post this My-T-Fine tidbit...

Fred Meyer

Fred Meyer
Home
What's New
What's Happening
Savings
This Weeks Ads
Exclusive Brands
Kitchen Help
Pharmacy
Gifts & Occasions
Find Stores
Contact Us
Site Map
About our Company
Careers
FAQ's
Savings
Savings
What's New Savings Kitchen Help Pharmacy Gifts & Occasions
Ralphs
Let us know where you'll be shopping so we may find sales at the Fred Meyer nearest you.
Don't know the zip code?
Find it with our
ZipFinder





All Contents Copyright 2001 The Kroger Co. All Rights Reserved. |

5 posted on 06/12/2002 2:44:23 PM PDT by ThreeYearLurker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
Yes, he is Elmer Barr. Same style. Was Elmer banned?
6 posted on 06/12/2002 2:45:05 PM PDT by eno_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
Oh, that proves EVERYTHING, doesn't it.

This guy was "surprised how well the government fooled everyone."

For my part, I'm continually amused at how these conspiracy buffs continue fooling THEMSELVES in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they're full of sh*t.

7 posted on 06/12/2002 2:45:12 PM PDT by Illbay
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
TWA Flight 800 - Witness Fred Meyer
8 posted on 06/12/2002 3:01:19 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
I don't know anything about him, but Asmodeus is the guy who keeps jumping on all the TWA 800 threads and saying that there were no missiles and the government was blameless. Presumably the purpose of this posting is to suggest that Richard Savage and Fred Meyer had some theory that Bill Donaldson was murdered, but that he actually died of a brain tumor, so the story was false.

I don't know what that has to do with the price of eggs. In any tragedy like this there will be far-out theories as well as good evidence. Frankly I had never heard of this murder theory before, and if it isn't true it makes no difference to the other overwhelming evidence that TWA800 was shot down by a missile or missiles.

9 posted on 06/12/2002 3:03:32 PM PDT by Cicero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Cicero
Frankly I had never heard of this murder theory before, and if it isn't true it makes no difference to the other overwhelming evidence that TWA800 was shot down by a missile or missiles.

I never heard it either but I am not surprised Meyer would be paranoid.

10 posted on 06/12/2002 3:07:00 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Illbay
I'm continually amused at how these conspiracy buffs

I am the furthest thing from a conspiracy buff but I do know that the investigation of TWA800 was not normal and the questions raised that conclusively rule out missles or bombs is not there and further the implied cause is nonsense.

My first interest came about when I was flying a TWA flight and two pilots were seated behind me and they began talking about the disaster among themselves. Both believed it was a missle. That was enough for me to at least keep an open mind and to this day I don't feel we have satisfactory answers.

11 posted on 06/12/2002 3:12:25 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: eno_
Was Elmer banned?

I never followed him on FR but if its the same person he would need to change his name just to get people to read his mantra.

12 posted on 06/12/2002 3:13:55 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion;eno
Here are some threads with eb44:

FLIGHT 800: COMDR. DONALDSON'S GRAPHICS & COMMENTS ON RADAR REPORTS DRAMATIZE TIMELINE CONFLICTS

TWA 800: COMDR. DONALDSON'S GRAPHICS & COMMENTS ON RADAR REPORTS DRAMATIZE TIMELINE CONFLICTS/PART 2

This one starts with eb44 on 12/10/99 and continues with Asmodeus on 12/15/01
Boeing Lawyers Still Saying Missile May Have Downed TWA Flight 800

13 posted on 06/12/2002 3:31:41 PM PDT by Tymesup
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: *TWA800_list
*Index Bump
14 posted on 06/12/2002 3:40:28 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
At least yours is a "reasonable doubt." What I'm talking about are the folks who have this whole thing woven into a complex network of people, motives, cover-ups, etc.

Personally, I don't believe there's anything there. Personally, I don't believe it is POSSIBLE to cover up something this huge and this "expensive." It just flies in the face of all logic. Insurance payouts, airlines going bankrupt, and not to mention all the congressmen who'd just LOVE to catch the current administration doing something like this.

Nope, sorry, just won't wash. It works in pulp fiction, but not in real life.

15 posted on 06/12/2002 3:55:32 PM PDT by Illbay
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
Agree 100% with your above #11 post.

As a fellow retired Naval Officer and Viet Nam Vet, I salute Commander Donaldson and his family for his, and their, service. My prayers for them will remain.

Re: the above mentioned "murdered"...is nonsense.

But, what he and many of us knew, and know,..TWA 800 was stung by Stingers off the southern beaches of Long Island. As to the spin that US Navy ships were conducting a "missle exercise" in that area is total Clintoon CYA and BS. The navy does not have a MisEx op-area anywhere close to NYC flight patterns.

Once again, the truth will come out, maybe, just maybe, our grandchildren will be told what the truth is.

Best FReegards...Mustang sends.

16 posted on 06/12/2002 4:11:15 PM PDT by Mustang
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: VRWC_minion
to this day I don't feel we have satisfactory answers.

Same here.

17 posted on 06/12/2002 5:14:58 PM PDT by backhoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: All
MEYER: "Lisa Perry is the best witness of all I have interviewed. However , she fears for her safety and is being urged by her husband and family members to "keep a low profile". She gave us the details of her observations in Oct. '96; long before careful investigation confirmed everything that she said."

LSoft Flight 800 Forum
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 From: Bardonia
Subject: Eyewitness Report
New addition to Eyewitness Reports. See "On a Clear Day You Can See Forever" at http://members.aol.com/bardonia.

Lisa Perry - Dan's Papers, Long Island, May 15, 1998
I saw the missile. I was facing eastward, toward the Hamptons, the ocean on my right, the deck of the house on my left. The deck is about 22 feet about the beach. On a clear day, as you look straight down the beach along the line of the shore, you can see the parking lot at Smith's Point Beach, 12 miles away. There was a plane in the sky ... out from the left, from the North, something was moving North to South over the dunes ... from the direction of the Great South Bay. The object came over the dunes of Fire Island. It was shiny, like a new dime; it looked like a plane without wings. It had no windows... It was as if there was a flame at the back of it, like a Bunsen burner .... It was like a silver bullet ... It was moving much faster than the plane. The silver object took a left turn, and went up to the plane. The plane stopped for an instant, as something would when it had suffered an impact, not just an explosion. Then it began to fracture - as if you had slammed a frozen candy bar down onto a table. You could see the spaces in between the parts of the plane. Then a moment later there was another explosion and the plane broke jaggedly in the sky. It was sideways to the way it had been ... there is smoke, fire .. the plane starts to fall apart in the sky ... the nose is continuing to go forward: the left wing is gliding off in its own direction, drifting in an arc gracefully down; the right wing and passenger window are doing the same in their direction out to the right; and the tail with its fireball leaps up and then promptly into the water below. The sounds were hugh BOOM! - then another BOOM! There was a hugh rumbling rolling in the sky... I told the FBI the nose of the plane had come off; and I told them this before the Navy pulled it out of the water. (Mrs Perry was interviewed by the FBI )- The two agents were very supportive; I was very comfortable with them .. I got the impression that they themselves thought a missile had hit the plane. After the (NTSB) hearings I spoke with one of the agents, who told me the FBI had concluded I was too far from the accident to see what I had seen. (Speaking of the CIA video) It wasn't like that at all. They said most people turned to the sound and then saw something. I was already looking at the event, before any explosion.

Having asked for a copy of her testimony to the FBI she was told to file a FOI request.

I knew what I was seeing was a plane breaking apart with people in it. It still haunts me how it continued to be in the air not quite flying but not exploded apart. I'm heartbroken for the families of all those people who were on that plane.

__________

THE "Missile Witnesses" Myth
FBI Chief Metallurgist Blows Whistle On Kallstrom's Wild Goose Chase

18 posted on 06/12/2002 8:38:14 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Do not bother to reply to any of Asmodeus' posts. He puts them up so he can waste FR bandwidth with his pet theory.

Regarless of how carefully you refute his errors, misconceptions, and outright lies, he will ignore you and paste a multi-colored pastiche of obfuscation and dare anyone to prove negatives. NOTHING will get past his preconceived opinion of what happened. In his world ALL of the witnesses did not see what they reported they DID see... irregardless that unrelated accounts trangulate to the same places.

Ignore him.

19 posted on 06/12/2002 11:16:20 PM PDT by Swordmaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Witness Fred "Fritz" Meyer reportedly says "I suspect that Bill Donaldson was murdered."
SOME COMMENTS FROM ELSEWHERE

Yahoo TWA 800 forum
From: John Fiorentino
Date: June 13, 2002
Well, we've certainly deep ended it now haven't we? Cmdr. Donaldson was murdered? Yes, we have now entered the Twilight Zone of conspiracy. we have our first subject to add to the "mysterious deaths" list. The Kennedy assassination has one, and now so do we. What we really have here is an abomination. A giant mass of absurd speculation and rumor mongering. Add an ounce or two of specious interpretation of evidence, then a dash of intrigue, shake briskly, now turn the whole damn thing 30 degrees counter-clockwise and wallah!

Is it any wonder people avoid this subject like the plague? What a pile of doodoo. My condolences go out to Bob Donaldson who is forced to endure this trash. If you butt cracks want to smoke some dope and BS, that's your business. This garbage has no place in this investigation. The choice is yours, an honest search for the truth or a trip down Alice's rabbit hole.

____________________

Yahoo TWA 800 forum
From: ACE1HIIGH
Date: June 12, 2002
Subject: Re: [twa800] Fritz

In a message dated 6/12/2002 6:31:23 PM Central Daylight Time, rsavage@nycap.rr.com writes:

Can you fill us in on what's happening with the Sanders.

No problem, Rick: Talked to him about three weeks ago, and as I stated, am going down sometime around the last of June.

Liz is currently doing contract corporate flight attendant work, and is quite busy. She's been off probation for about a year, now.

Jim is recuperating from a serious medical problem, working on his latest book, (tentatively to be released in September) and bouncing back and forth between New York and Florida as needed in the ongoing civil case against the feds.

I intend to ask him if Donaldson's death appears to him to possibly be under circumstances other than what has been reported.

In all honesty, Fritz spooked the h*** out of me.

I ran Elmer's current sorry attempt to discredit the eyewitnesses by demeaning his (Meyer's) description of the events of 7/17/96 by him. Elmer is using a snip from the NTSB witness group thusly on Free Republic:

If he's so unflappable and KNOWS that he saw a missile shoot down TWA 800, how do you explain his following statement while being interviewed by an NTSB Witness Group?

I saw a streak of light in the sky. I have no idea what it was. And my reaction when I saw it was, what the hell is that?

Fritz reply, "TYPO, I saw a streak of light in the sky. I HAD no idea what it was. Hell"

Yeah, Fritz. Me too.

____________________

The Donaldson brothers' TWA 800 forum
  Next Topic >> Return to Index  
On Missileconspiracywackos
June 13 2002 at 12:57 PM
stan"); // -->   (Login thatstan)
from IP address 216.128.134.128

From: "stan clark" <stan@could.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: twa800@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: [twa800] On Missileconspiracywackos and X>2
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:23:19 -0500 ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fiorentino"
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:31:35 -0400

j: Well, we've certainly deep ended it now haven't we?

s: No. That was my initial reaction too, BTW, John.

j: Cmdr. Donaldson was murdered?..............Yes, we have now entered the Twilight Zone of conspiracy.........we have our first subject to add to the "mysterious deaths" list. The Kennedy assassination has one, and now so do we.

s: Worse than that, John. Meyer said the number of mysterious deaths, X, was not one but two. You forgot Jeremy Crocker. I am convinced the feds bumped him off. The feds were in a frenzy during that time period. I think it was triggered by the ATC tape. The election. And Meyer's defection as their TV 'spokesman.' Damn you, Dick Russell! <g> That's when I instantly decided to 'retire' from Dahlgren Division of NAVSEA, BTW. What luck! What relief. I'm still afraid to go on any military base.

s: X>2, Fred. I need a good lawyer.

j: What we really have here is an abomination. A giant mass of absurd speculation and rumor mongering. Add an ounce or two of specious interpretation of evidence, then a dash of intrigue..........shake briskly...........now turn the whole damn thing 30 degrees counter-clockwise...........and wallah!

s: The above paragraph is the abomination, IMO. I think Bill Donaldson was my favorite, next to Gary, on this exercise. Meyer and Nibert are probably tied for third. Bill Donaldson was convinced it was terrorist. I thought that silly but, like Sanders, felt I understood why Bill thought the way he did. The medical answer is the navy was a father figure to him and therefore could do no wrong. And Bill was a pure soul. The two conflicted and 'the ship hit the sand.' I suffered the same problem to a lesser extent once. I think Gary believes it's an engine cowling, along with Jim Knowles. We have had a 747 cowling fall off in LA since '96. I'm pretty sure I'm on the same wavelength with Meyer and Nibert on the cause of this tragedy. And we have many victims on the navy side of the house besides Donaldson as well.

s: My initial thought on Bill's death is his life was shortened by the navy's brutal and blatant coverup. My shrink, as fine a man as I've ever met, died of 'cancer' like Bill, but all of his professional associates (large firm in Ft. Walton) claimed Eglin AFB killed him. He was treating about 50 dissenters (whistleblowers) at any one time from Eglin. My belief on his death is his life was shortened also because of Eglin, but 'cancer' killed both Commander Bill and Dr. Gill. It's a complex medical problem beyond our scope, but the problem is it is the policy of the US government to kill dissenters who interfere on ultra high cost matters - pure and simple. It's simply considered good business. And they have a point - to everyone who does not hold human life sacred. TWA800 is an ideal example. That's from medical doctors who have to treat these noble dissenters made 'vegetables' by their own government.&nb! sp; Perhaps we shouldn't drill into our kids, "DO THE RIGHT THING." It could be hazardous to their health later.

Trying to differentiate between suicide and murder is a matter for professional criminologists. I was getting help from these types until they got scared off - like the medical types. An interesting example is the top exec at ENRON who 'mysteriously' committed suicide right before he was going to blow the whistle. Remember that one (not publicized much)? He blew his brains out in the turn lane driving home. After my criminologist stopped laughing, he told me you don't commit suicide in the turn lane in rush hour traffic going home. It could disrupt traffic. <g> You are most vulnerable, however, for 'assistance.' Where were the conspiracy mongers on this one, John? I think it's healthy to question all deaths of people in the heat of battle with the feds. Had we done so on ENRON, we coulda nailed some fat cats who wiped out so many working people's retirement.

s: It reminds me of the civil rights worker's body found in Mississippi in the sixties with 37 bullet holes in him. The High Sheriff said it was the worst case of suicide they'd ever had. <g>

J: Is it any wonder people avoid this subject like the plague?

s: The reason knowledgeable people on twa800 avoid this subject like the plague is fear of their own government and people. Dissent is the plague. I haven't decided yet whether I should put you in the 'knowledgeable people category' or not, John. <g>

j: What a pile of doodoo.

j: My condolences go out to Bob Donaldson who is forced to endure this trash.

s: Mine too, and to his son. As a minimum, I feel both realize how it changed Bill by driving his blood pressure up. They don't call that the 'silent killer' for nothing.

j: If you butt cracks want to smoke some dope and BS......that's your business. This garbage has no place in this investigation.

j: The choice is yours...........an honest search for the truth......or a trip down Alice's rabbit hole.

s: I admit there's only four honest lawyers in the country, but Meyer is one of the four. That's his damn problem! <g> Like Bill. I'll learn you yet on twa800, John. Even if I have to write your book for you. <g> That book-to-be is as important to me and the rest of us as it is to you. Stan

"It is better to be rich and happy than to be poor and sick." David Wolpert

--

 
  Respond to this message   
Current Topic - On Missileconspiracywackos   Respond to this message   
Advertisement: Rent DVDs online -- Free Trial for 2 weeks!
  Next Topic >> Return to Index  

____________________

Yahoo TWA 800 forum
From: amartsmart
Date: June 13, 2002
Subject: "COMMANDER DONALDSON'S VIEW (on Navy ships in the area on July 17, 1996...")
Dear Friends:

If one goes to the "www.TWA800.com" web-site, AND SCROLLS DOWN TO "WARNING AREAS" and then if one reads what Commander Donaldson, himself, the FORMER COMMANDER OF THE ENTIRE U.S. NAVY, (I think!; somebody correct me please, if I am not correct about this...); HAD TO SAY ABOUT THIS QUESTION; one will read that the former U.S. Navy Commander himself had to say:

which was (paraphrased); go to all web-sites included in this paragraph and pay particular attention to the last line...perhaps one of the last statements that the Commander uttered: (concerning the radar layout of any SHIPS in the vicinity that night)....."(COMMANDER DONALDSON BELIEVES THE RADAR COULD JUST HAVE EASILY BEEN SPORTS FISHERMEN AND NOTHING MORE...YOU DECIDE!!!".

CONCLUSION

ALL NAVY WARNING AREAS FOR THAT NIGHT DO NOT RELATE ANY TYPE OF NAVY EXERCISES IN THE AREA...."

THEORY ONLY/ANNE.


20 posted on 06/13/2002 12:15:03 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Mustang; All
Are There 100+ TWA Flight 800 Witness Interviews By Bill Donaldson That Haven't Been Made Public?


21 posted on 06/13/2002 1:26:43 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Illbay
Just a reminder...The TWA 800 terrorist act didn't occur during the "current administration"...the investigation was squashed by the Toon and his friends. Bad press at the time if our country was being attacked while Monica had her mouth full.

Mustang sends.

22 posted on 06/13/2002 2:43:53 PM PDT by Mustang
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Retired Navy Officer and VietNam Vet BUMP!
23 posted on 06/13/2002 2:57:50 PM PDT by Mustang
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Mustang
BTTT
24 posted on 06/13/2002 5:08:20 PM PDT by Pagey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
I still think it was a botched AirNG exercise.
25 posted on 06/13/2002 5:44:56 PM PDT by RedwM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Thank you for proving my point... more obfuscation and misdirection.
26 posted on 06/13/2002 6:23:08 PM PDT by Swordmaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: all

Free Republic is funded solely by donations from readers.
Donations and official correspondence should be mailed to:
Free Republic, LLC, PO Box 9771, Fresno, CA 93794

Support Free Republic by secure credit card.

Send PayPal direct to JimRob@psnw.com

Thank you Registered!

27 posted on 06/13/2002 6:26:11 PM PDT by WIMom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Illbay; VRWC_minion
To: VRWC_minion
Personally, I don't believe it is POSSIBLE to cover up something this huge and this "expensive." It just flies in the face of all logic. Insurance payouts, airlines going bankrupt, and not to mention all the congressmen who'd just LOVE to catch the current administration doing something like this. Nope, sorry, just won't wash. It works in pulp fiction, but not in real life.
# 15 by Illbay

*************************

It worked in Waco, and there were even more witnesses, participants, and evidence of wrong-doing then.

As to the Congressmen who'd love to catch the current administration covering something up, remember that Flight 800 was originally a Clinton coverup.

Bush just took up the baton.

28 posted on 06/14/2002 9:51:20 AM PDT by exodus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Mustang; Asmodeus
To: Asmodeus
Retired Navy Officer and VietNam Vet BUMP!
# 23 by Mustang

*************************

Not to worry, Mustang.
The best evidence is that Flight 800 went down as the result of a terrorist attack.

29 posted on 06/14/2002 9:55:43 AM PDT by exodus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: exodus
Bush just took up the baton.

I suspect the gov't has a good reason.

30 posted on 06/14/2002 10:24:45 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: All
For related info concerning Fritz Meyer go to:

FUDD'S "EYEWITNESS MYTH" MYTH

31 posted on 06/14/2002 11:56:48 AM PDT by acehai
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: acehai; All
Acehai: "Since you've been sneaking and peeking at the Yahoo Groups TWA 800 board, why don't you let Fritz Meyer answer your misinformed question regarding what he said at the Witness group meeting".

"I saw a streak of light in the sky. I have no idea what it was. And my reaction when I saw it was, what the hell is that?"

"Here's Meyer's reply to my e-mail:

"TYPO = I saw a streak of light in the sky. I HAD no idea what it was. And my reaction when I saw it was, what the hell is that?"

World of difference, folks.

He had no way of knowing what it was at the time. It looked like a streak of light, and that's what he reported.

But he KNEW what ordnance looked like, and described it when the streak ended and after a space without seeing anything, further to the left, a hard explosion, military ordinance.

He admitted he had never seen the second explosion of "brilliant white light" before...It was totally new to him...

These explosions happened at TWA 800's altitude. The Massive Fireball was the LAST event to happen, further left, and lower down.

____________________

Let's take a little closer look Acehai's rant.

" . . . sneaking and peeking at the Yahoo Groups TWA 800 board".

He's referring to a forum open to the public to read just as FreeRepublic is.

____________________

"TYPO = I saw a streak of light in the sky. I HAD no idea what it was. And my reaction when I saw it was, what the hell is that?"

The "shootdown" tinfoil hats have no idea what the real significance of that statement by witness Meyer is. 1. When he saw the fiery streak, it did not look to him like the exhaust or trail or a missile, dispelling the tinfoil hats' allegations that it was obviously a missile in flight. 2. Experts want to know what witnesses actually saw - and separate those actual observations from the witnesses' conclusions after input from other sources. Which is referred to by experts as tainting input.

____________________

But he KNEW what ordnance looked like, and described it when the streak ended and after a space without seeing anything, further to the left, a hard explosion, military ordinance.

If so, why did Meyer and his crewmates initially speculate that what they had seen was a MIDAIR COLLISION?

"In the first place we didn't know what we had. I think we speculated that we might've had a mid-air because we know from here a lot that aircraft from Easthampton Airport and Montauk Sky Portal and aircraft from west of here fly the beach, and they look at the mansions along the beach. And we know that it's very common to have aircraft flying at 1,000 to 2,000 feet, east and west, right at each other along this beach."

"It's very dangerous. It's all VFR traffic. It's unregulated. The only regulation at all occurs when they fly through the southern tip of a control zone. They'll call this tower for clearance through the control zone. They'll say, all right. I'm at 1,500 feet. And the tower will tell them, well, you got another guy westbound and he's at 1,500. So, why don't one of you change altitude. so -- Mid-airs are -- the potential is always there. It's a very dangerous situation. We thought we had one."
SOURCE.

The "Missile Witnesses" Myth
Major Meyer's Own Detailed Presentation of His Observations
FBI Chief Metallurgist Blows Whistle On Kallstrom's Wild Goose Chase

32 posted on 06/14/2002 5:11:10 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Acehai; All
Yahoo TWA 800 forum
From: George A Donaldson
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 5:26 pm

Anne,

Fritz Meyer stated, correct me if I am wrong Ace, that he observed several bursts of ordnance a few seconds before the massive fireball.

Based on recognized history, the IE occurred at least 20 seconds before the MF. I do not consider this to be a few seconds, in any stretch of the imagination.

Ace hates me, along with many others no doubt, because I feel that what Fritz saw were emergency breathing O2 cannisters cooking off. They are positioned in sets equal to the number of seats which they supply, typically more than singular in a B747, in the overhead compartment structure. An O2 cannister exploding should look like the bright white light of ordnance exploding. Fritz's observation had the bias of his having seen ordnance while flying 'copters in the Viet Nam theater of operations. The best witnesses are likely people who have absolutely no experience in anything relevant. They can tell what they saw rather than what they think that they saw based on their own experiences.

33 posted on 06/14/2002 5:52:08 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Elmer...Since you went to so much trouble to post this question on all the threads, I feel it my duty to post the answer that most Freepers would accept as reasonable. Swordmaker was astute enough to provide a reasoned rebuttal to your question, so, begging his indulgence and permission:

{Elmer}If so, why did Meyer and his crewmates initially speculate that what they had seen was a MIDAIR COLLISION?

{Swordmaker} Asmodeus, there is a very simple explanation... these flyers were trying to assess (diagnose) a peculiar event... an event beyond their experience in the area they were flying.

In medicine, an old saying is applicable: "When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras."

In this instance, they saw a streak of light, followed by an bright flash explosion. Their experience, in this flight area, is that it is filled with airplanes (horses) and that it would not be unreasonable to assume, initially, that what they had seen was a mid-air collision of two airplanes.

They DID NOT expect to see a missile (a zebra) flying before their eyes. The first inclination is to fit observed data into expected norms. It is only upon reflection that a rarer diagnosis can be made... that the hoofbeats were from zebras and not horses... when the observations DO NOT FIT the expected normal scenario. In this instance, the streak of light followed by the bright flash of an ordnance explosion DID NOT FIT the mid-air collision scenario expected. To make that conclusion one must shift time and place and situation.

Flying on a warm evening evening off of Long Island, one DOES NOT EXPECT TO SEE an AA missile! One's mind must shift gears and paradigms to realize what actually was seen.

{Elmer}You've given a classic example of "shootdown" tinfoil hat blabberbabble on a subject you know NOTHING about.

{Acehai} ...And you've given a classic example of how to recognize and expose a disinformationist. I'll simply invoke Number 5 of H. Michael Sweeney's 25 Rules of Disinformation, found at his excellent website by clicking...

ASMODEUS HOIST ON HIS OWN PETARD

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', tinfoil hats', [my addendum] radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

Swordmaker then responds to your faux pas with the following:

Your database is truly amazing... my compliments to your staff.

This article from the September 1, 1996 Newsday (article deleted in the interest of brevity, check Elmers post if truly necessary to recap [acehai])was part of the astounding coordinated effort to disparage and impeach ALL of the eyewitnesses to TWA-800. To believe this, NOTHING reported by a witness can be at all reliable in any way.

The true method of evaluation of eyewitnesses is to compare and contrast the various reports... not to totally discount everything stated and ignore the qualifications and training of those who are making the reports. ALL observations are filtered through the mind of the observer... and initial reports are best for raw data, however INTERPRETATION of that data requires input from other sources.

Now, let's look at your introduction to the article and see how you are less interested in presenting an objective discussion than you are in attacking anyone who disagrees with you. You said:

You've given a classic example of "shootdown" tinfoil hat blabberbabble on a subject you know NOTHING about.

Expert - "A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

Objective readers are encouraged to compare the following with your wacky "analysis".

Your introduction is filled with "loaded" words... all designed to attack your oponents and are therefore ad hominem" argumental fallacies. They are intended to insult the person you are addressing and prejudice the idle reader against anything they may say.

YOU have no information at all about my background or fields of expertise... yet you, based on some articles in the popular press, call a well thought out analysis and opinion "tinfoil hat blabberbabble" and "wacky." It is neither.

Our system of justice DOES NOT RELY on experts. It relies on the judgement of ordinary people, weighing and evaluating the evidence presented which may include the OPINIONS of experts. In the case of TWA-800, the testimony, the evidence, offered by hundreds of eyewitnesses, regardless of its probitive value, was systematically distorted, devalued, obfuscated, and finally, uniquely, BANNED from presentation before the probitive panel, effectively preventing that panel from evaluating and weighing that evidence. Instead, they were given an "expert's" opinion and interpretation of that testimony that in most, if not all, instances was FALSE TO FACT and was based solely on what THIRD PARTY interviewers recalled of the statements sometime after the interview! The FBI 302 system does not lend itself to accurate reporting... it relies on the memories of the FBI agents as to what the witness reports. The NTSB was then presented with an "expert's" recollection of what the FBI agents wrote down of what they recalled the witnesses said instead of hearing what the witnesses have to say themselves. Absurd.

You continually present yourself as an "expert" on this case... I suggest that there is another definition of "expert" that fits:

Expert - "An unknown drip under pressure."

And the best reply you could come up with, Elmer, was...

You continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about.

Aw gee, Elmer...Whatsamatter? Won't these nasty old "tin-foil hats" play fair???

34 posted on 06/17/2002 2:27:19 AM PDT by acehai
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: acehai; Swordmaker
Swordmaker: "Our system of justice DOES NOT RELY on experts. It relies on the judgement of ordinary people, weighing and evaluating the evidence presented which may include the OPINIONS of experts."

It's the role of a Jury to "weigh and evaluate the evidence presented which may include the opinions of experts".

The nature and extent of the evidence presented to a jury is determined by an expert, the Trial Court Judge. Jurors are routinely taken out of the Court while the issues of what they will be permitted to hear and see are argued by experts, the lawyers representing the litigants, following which the Judge decides what the jury members will be allowed to hear and see - and what they will not be allowed to hear and see.

It's NOT the role of eyewitnesses to "weigh and evaluate the evidence presented which may include the opinions of experts". They are routinely not even allowed to be in the Court prior to their own testimony. The purpose is to prevent them from being tainted by hearing the comments of the Judge and the lawyers or the testimony of anyone else.

The role of eyewitnesses is to tell only what they actually saw, no more, in response to questions they are asked by the lawyers for the litigants and sometimes the Judge and even members of the jury.

The NTSB is NOT a Trial Court. It's purpose is to determine the facts necessary to come to an informed conclusion about the cause or "probable cause" of a transportation event. In the case of Flight 800, the FBI seized control of the investigation because of James Kallstrom's knee jerk "missile shotdown" reaction to the initial reports of a fiery streak immediately followed by the Massive Fireball explosion. One of the consequences was that the NTSB eventually had to rely for the most part on FBI 302 form witness interviews that are nothing more than FBI agents' recollections and understanding of the responses of witnesses to the questions asked.

By the way, are you contending ALL of the 700+ witnesses should have testified - or just the mythical "missile witnesses"? Name those you wanted to testify. And WHO do you believe should have been permitted to question them in that event? YOU? Bill Donaldson? Reed Irvine? ALL of the hundreds of lawyers representing the lititgants?

Regardless, LONG BEFORE the NTSB's Baltimore Hearing, the material damage experts of various government agencies determined that NO EVIDENCE of a missile or bomb was found in the wreckage.

And, of course, the FBI "302's" and the NTSB's own interviews have been made available to the public on the internet along with the NTSB's voluminous "probable cause" report.

Why haven't you or any of the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats ever publicly expressed ANY interest in whether Bill Donaldson's own 100+ witness interviews will ever be made public?

Yet, you and some of the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats, ALL unqualified by training and experience to expertly interview the Flight 800 witnesses, much less to expertly analyze the witness reports yourselves, have continued your mantra that "the witnesses should have been allowed to testify" even though none of you have been able, after nearly six years of effort to publicly present ANY physical evidence of a bomb or missile or an expert analysis of of the witness reports that disagrees with the conclusions of the NTSB's Witness Groups.

In the interim, your house-of-cards "case" fell apart early on and your first perceived "missile witnesses" authority figure, Ian Goddard, made the following public statement:

____________________

LSoft Flight 800 Forum
Date: 4 October 1997
From: Ian Goddard
Subject: Getting over TWA 800
[excerpt]
Breaching the security of a criminal investigation, which all FBI investigations are, is a matter of National Security by definition.

Did Sanders illegally acquire evidence? Yes.
Did someone illegally give him evidence? Yes.
Is it the role of the govt to enforce law? Yes.

Because the answer to all those questions is "yes," the fact that the govt is pursuing violations of law proves only that the govt is guilty of enforcing laws.

The situation presents zero evidence of illicit cover-up and should not be measured as evidence of anything except that the govt is doing its stated job. If the FBI does not go after the violation, that would be derelict.

Another thing, it's been suggested that opponents of the Friendly Fire theory on the list are govt agents and that they work for some PR firm or some such hired to defend the Navy and the official case. Assuming that that is true, it is implied that this is yet more evidence that the govt is guilty of downing TWA 800 and has hired people to cover it up.

Let's think about it for a moment: if people started accusing Sears of killing people, and if it was false, would Sears have a duty to not defend itself? A duty not to hire a PR firm to defend itself? No. Would hiring a PR firm to defend itself constitute evidence of culpability? Absolutely not!

YET those who WANT to believe Sears is guilty will see it and paint it as evidence of guilt. That is in fact fascistic: any entity, private or public has a right to defend itself against charges made against it; to attempt to pervert that right to self-defence into evidence of culpability is a profound injustice. It is an effort to rape the opponent.

BTW, I'm not "switching sides." After taking time off to cool down from my TWA 800 fever, I've realized that I should look at things from the other side, make the other case, and then test the logic. Too much I was piling up anything I could to support the F-Fire theory with anything that felt like evidence, but which, upon a more objective analysis, might not even be evidence at all.

It's fun and even addictive to kick around the government, that big faceless establishment that your allowed to pummel with words; but that does not necessarily ensure logical conclusions.

Could the FF theory simply be a house of cards built upon a base of wishful yet errant analysis? It's not wrong to propose a theory. When I proposed the FF theory over a year ago (not the first to do so) I was viciously attacked, my reputation smeared and called insane 10 million times. That will cause the meek to quickly disappear, it caused me to go to war, to prove I was not wrong, it was an ego battle. So as a matter of fact, I started off on the wrong footing. The people who attacked me did everyone on all "sides" a disservice.

If no one had attacked me, I probably would have wandered off onto other things. Instead I had to prove my case by any means short of the unethical. I don't consider listing all the reasons to believe X unethical,even if the reasons not to believe it are omitted, so long as those for are true.

While not unethical, it's not objective, it is biased. The need to defend my reputation against such base assault compelled be to be as biased as ethics would allow. If I had to run everyone in the Navy into jail in the process, so be it. Which is not to say I did not induce belief in my case in myself. I was 99% sure.

Taking several weeks off my TWA 800 fixation has been the best thing I've done in over a year! I don't care to ever get involved inthe case again and will ignore replies to this, which I'm sure will accuse me of becoming a govt agent and therefore as more evidence that the Navy shotdown TWA 800... yawn. I've had enough of all that paranoia.

I think we all need to get over TWA 800 and let the families pursue the case in the fashion that they see fit.

____________________

Now, here you are, mimicing that self acknowledged nutcase - including his legendary crybaby complaints about "ad hominem attacks" - while continuing the efforts of some of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats for the past 6 years to incite fear, suspicion and hatred of those who disagree with you by stating that the "article from the September 1, 1996 Newsday was part of the astounding coordinated effort to disparage and impeach ALL of the eyewitnesses to TWA-800. To believe this, NOTHING reported by a witness can be at all reliable in any way".

It would appear that you include Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, one of the world's foremost authorities on the fallibility and tainting of eyewitnesses, in that shotgun accusation. Read my lips:

You and your ilk have FALSELY accused thousands of innocent Americans of the felonious criminal coverup of heinous crimes that took place ONLY in your own sinister imaginations.

That's why so many of the postings of you and other "shootdown" tinfoil hats have been deleted. Rather than come to grips with the issues, you've spent six years trying to breath life into your stillborn "shootdown" nonsense with malicious Storm Trooper efforts incite suspicion, fear and hatred of those who disagree with you . That's why every member of congress, past and present, has turned their backs on you, why all but the "green men from Mars" press have been ignoring your antics for years and why the public has walked away.

The "Missile Witnesses" Myth
FBI Chief Metallurgist Blows Whistle On Kallstrom's Wild Goose Chase

35 posted on 06/17/2002 10:38:19 AM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: Asmodeus, Acehai; eno_;John O; Alamo Girl
Sometimes I wonder if you can read. You posted:

'It's NOT the role of eyewitnesses to "weigh and evaluate the evidence presented which may include the opinions of experts". They are routinely not even allowed to be in the Court prior to their own testimony. The purpose is to prevent them from being tainted by hearing the comments of the Judge and the lawyers or the testimony of anyone else.'

The preceeding quotation of YOUR post contains a quotation from my reply to you that, taken out of context (and with your replacement clause added), implies that I said that the eyewitnesses' role is to "weigh and evaluate" the evidence.

I did not. This is just another form of the ad hominem fallacy.

I point out to the idle readers that the stresses added above are Asmodeus's and his purpose is to portray me, to anyone who did not read my original reply to a question he posed, as ignorant of our judicial process. By presenting me as ignorant, he hopes to win his case before arguing it by getting readers to infer I do not know what I am talking about.

This is all part of Asmodeus speaking ex cathedra, in which pontificates on well known facts of the Justice system by giving us his interpretation of "trial court 101." He is playing a role. Asmodeus wants us to believe he is the wise professor, correcting and instructing the poor ignorant student. it is all a set up to make us believe HE knows what he is talking about. And he can't help but add a few zingers.

In his world, the trial court is composed of experts, the judge and lawyers, who from their absolute unassailable expertise, decide what the jury will hear. The now perfectly untainted testimony and evidence (Just the facts, Ma'am!) is presented before a jury who will make an unbiased and totally objective evaluation of what happened, with no application of their life experiences, education, and knowledge from other sources, just like little machines.

This brings us to the NTSB...

His purpose here is to establish that experts at the NTSB should have a similar role in selecting what the board should consider in making its decision.

Yes, Asmodeus, I know, the National Transportation Safety Board hearing is not a jury trial. It is more akin to a Coronor's Inquest. As you said: "It's purpose is to determine the facts necessary to come to an informed conclusion about the cause or 'probable cause' of a transportation event.

You, yourself, said: "The role of eyewitnesses is to tell only what they actually saw, no more, in response to questions they are asked by the lawyers for the litigants and sometimes the Judge and even members of the jury." - Professor Asmodeus

Yet, at the NTSB hearing... and even before, in the investigative phase... the TWA-800 eyewitnesses were allowed to play NO ROLE AT ALL. The lawyers, the judge, the jury... none got to question them. Only the FBI agents asked them any questions... and then wrote a report. What "eyewitness" testimony that was offered at the hearing was presented by a person with an agenda: he was apparently charged with making certain no witnesses testimony was reported accurately. The NTSB, the inquisitive body, was DENIED evidence. In fact, they were presented FALSE EVIDENCE. Some expert decided what evidence the board could and could not hear.

You agree that the FBI 302s are not ideal evidence. But you then make the total leap of logic off the deep end of the world when you claim: "...the NTSB eventually had to rely for the most part on FBI 302 form witness interviews that are nothing more than FBI agents' recollections and understanding of the responses of witnesses to the questions asked. "

THAT IS NOT TRUE! You say it is because it advances your agenda.

In a trial, best evidence is primary evidence. A witness deposition is not permited or admissable unless the deposed is NOT AVAILABLE and even if admitted, the jurors are told to give it less weight than actual testimony. A police officer's report of what a witness said is inadmissable as hearsay. In this case were the witnesses unavailable??? Were they dead? No? Then the NTSB did not have to "rely" on the flawed reports from the FBI.

"By the way, are you contending ALL of the 700+ witnesses should have testified - or just the mythical "missile witnesses"? Name those you wanted to testify."

I suggest that there are witnesses with more probitive value than others. I would believe it would be prudent to call those with the most detailed and complete accounts. I do not need to name them. There is a world of difference between NO EYEWITNESSES and even ONE.

"Regardless, LONG BEFORE the NTSB's Baltimore Hearing, the material damage experts of various government agencies determined that NO EVIDENCE of a missile or bomb was found in the wreckage."

Using evidence ALL FILTERED THROUGH THE FBI amid numerous and credible reports of the disappearance, suppression, alteration, and destruction of evidence! In addition, some of those experts deny the negative results attributed to them. If, at the evidence collection stage, there is a concerted effort to misdirect any evidence that does not fit a preconceived scenario, and there IS credible evidence such misdirection did occur, then the lack of evidence is not surprising.

GIGO. Garbage IN, Garbage OUT.

"Why haven't you or any of the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats ever publicly expressed ANY interest in whether Bill Donaldson's own 100+ witness interviews will ever be made public?"

Ignoring your obligitory ad hominemslurs, we have and they have. I've read several. I will not do your homework for you and post any. Find them yourself. Enough said.

"Yet, you and some of the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats, ALL unqualified by training and experience to expertly interview the Flight 800 witnesses, much less to expertly analyze the witness reports yourselves, have continued your mantra that "the witnesses should have been allowed to testify" even though none of you have been able, after nearly six years of effort to publicly present ANY physical evidence of a bomb or missile or an expert analysis of of the witness reports that disagrees with the conclusions of the NTSB's Witness Groups."

Ignoring your tiresome, knee-jerk slurs:

Asmodeus, WHERE are the government's expertly interviewed witnesses??? From what we have learned (and you admit) the witnesses were NOT expertly interviewed by anyone with any expertise in air disaster investigation. Where are the experts in ground-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft missiles, airliners being shot down by missiles, Centerwing tank explosions of 747s, parralax view, ballistic trajectory, etc., that were intimately involved in questioning the witnesses? Finally, how could the NTSB witness evaluation expert, expertly evaluate flawed and inexpertly interviewed witness reports???? Again, Garbage IN, Garbage OUT!

The Ian Goddard excerpt is a Non Sequitur and means nothing. He has not changed his view that TWA-800 was shot down. He is questioning his conclusion that it was the US Navy's "friendly fire" that was responsible.

"It would appear that you include Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, one of the world's foremost authorities on the fallibility and tainting of eyewitnesses, in that shotgun accusation."

Because any single person's work is co-opted by someone with an agenda does NOT mean that person is in agreement with that agenda. Dr. Loftus' work is irrelevant. The import here is the timing and purpose of the article reporting her work... not what she wrote. Would her obscure book been the subject of a NEWS article had not so many eyewitnesses reported similar sightings of something strange in the sky before the destruction of TWA-800? I doubt it.

"Read my lips: You and your ilk have FALSELY accused thousands of innocent Americans of the felonious criminal coverup of heinous crimes that took place ONLY in your own sinister imaginations.

Where, oh where, Asmodeus, have I uttered such a thing? In my view, it does not take thousands to cover up this... it takes only a few, properly placed. It is my viewpoint that it was a terrorist act. The cover-up may be the result of the US Navy's FAILURE to intercept and capture the occupants of the two missile firing boats or it may be because the administration did not want a failure on its record in the upcoming elections. Unlike you, I keep an open mind on this.

38 posted on 06/18/2002 12:43:55 AM PDT by Swordmaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: all
Sorry for the triple posting... something is glitchy in my browser. If i get even close to the post button, it does. Please delete repies 36 and 37. 38 is the final edited version. Thanks Swordmaker
39 posted on 06/18/2002 12:47:53 AM PDT by Swordmaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Mega Bump...
40 posted on 06/18/2002 11:49:07 PM PDT by acehai
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Circular logic "a logical error, caused by first making some assumption that can't be proven true, then, on the basis of that assumption, deriving some result that is then used to "prove" that the first assumption is true.

You and all the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats made the same "logical error" at the outset of the investigation, the ASSUMPTIONS that the streak of light seen by many witnesses was the ascending fiery exhaust of a missile in flight and that the Massive Fireball was the Initiating Event when "the missile" intercepted the airliner. Therefore, it became your duty as Patriots to prove you were right. Therefore, those who disagreed with your interpretation of the witness reports are government agent disinformationalists engaged in the felonious criminal coverup of a heinous crime, the missile shootdown of TWA Flight 800.

In short, you've brainwashed yourselves.

And in your clumsy efforts to pound square pegs into round holes to try to prove you're right, you've run off ALL members of congress, past and present, the press [with the exception of the green men from Mars branch] and the public has walked away.

Your efforts to try to explain the wacky "coverup" allegations are grotesque.

"In my view, it does not take thousands to cover up this... it takes only a few, properly placed. It is my viewpoint that it was a terrorist act. The cover-up may be the result of the US Navy's FAILURE to intercept and capture the occupants of the two missile firing boats or it may be because the administration did not want a failure on its record in the upcoming elections. Unlike you, I keep an open mind on this." [emphasis yours]

To support your allegation that at least some of the witnesses should have testified before the NTSB, you came up with the following.

"In a trial, best evidence is primary evidence. A witness deposition is not permited or admissable unless the deposed is NOT AVAILABLE and even if admitted, the jurors are told to give it less weight than actual testimony. A police officer's report of what a witness said is inadmissable as hearsay. In this case were the witnesses unavailable??? Were they dead? No? Then the NTSB did not have to "rely" on the flawed reports from the FBI."

"I suggest that there are witnesses with more probitive value than others. I would believe it would be prudent to call those with the most detailed and complete accounts. I do not need to name them. There is a world of difference between NO EYEWITNESSES and even ONE."

SOMEBODY would have to name them.

WHO would you and the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have trusted to make the selections? The NTSB? The FBI? The civil litigants' lawyers? Asmodeus? Ian Goddard? Bill Donaldson? Reed Irvine? James Sanders? Acehai? Swordmaker?

SOMEBODY would have had to gather up the documentation on ALL of their prior interviews to see if their contentions about what they actually saw changed over time as the result of input from other sources aka tainting.

WHO would you and the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have trusted to do that? The NTSB? The FBI? The civil litigants' lawyers? Asmodeus? Ian Goddard? Bill Donaldson? Reed Irvine? James Sanders? Acehai? Swordmaker?

SOMEBODY would have had to question them.

WHO would you and the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have trusted to do that? The NTSB? The FBI? The civil litigants' lawyers? Asmodeus? Ian Goddard? Bill Donaldson? Reed Irvine? James Sanders? Acehai? Swordmaker?

You say - "I would believe it would be prudent to call those with the most detailed and complete accounts."

For instance?

You say: "In his [Asmodeus'] world, the trial court is composed of experts, the judge and lawyers, who from their absolute unassailable expertise, decide what the jury will hear. The now perfectly untainted testimony and evidence (Just the facts, Ma'am!) is presented before a jury who will make an unbiased and totally objective evaluation of what happened, with no application of their life experiences, education, and knowledge from other sources, just like little machines." [emphasis yours]

In the real world the Trial Court is presided over by an expert, the Judge, and he alone decides what the jury will be allowed to hear and see and what the jury will not be allowed to hear and see after listening to the arguments and reviewing the case law presented by other experts [and in his own law library], the litigants' lawyers. Other experts, higher court Judges, may thereafter be asked to decide if the decisions of the Trial Court Judge were correct.

Juries are not supposed to let "their life experiences, education, and knowledge from other sources" influence their decision - but in the real world they often do. In that event, however, it may be grounds for a new trial.

You say: "The Ian Goddard excerpt is a Non Sequitur and means nothing. He has not changed his view that TWA-800 was shot down. He is questioning his conclusion that it was the US Navy's "friendly fire" that was responsible."

Goddard appears to have succumbed again to his Circular Logic. Is he now contending that his EMP Missile Theory, intended to explain both the CWT explosion and the lack of "missile" damage to the 747, was carried out by Ahab In A Dinghy? His animated EMP Theory graphic is included with some of the other mythical "shootdown" graphics HERE.

41 posted on 06/19/2002 12:39:58 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus; acehai; John O; Alamo-Girl; Tymesup
". . . You. . . make the assumption . . . that the Massive Fireball was the Initiating Event when "the missile" intercepted the airliner..."

My, my, oh my, how you like to put words in people's mouths.

STRAWMAN ARGUMENT - an illegitimate debating technique in which one party restates the position of the opponents attributing provably false assumptions to opponents that they are NOT arguing so one can knock down the false assumption.

My one erroneous assumption was that you are an honest debater and can read.

You obviously CAN'T read and by posting a false statement of my position, you are not honest!

WHO told you that I assumed the "massive fireball" was the initiating event??? To assume that would be to ignore the evidence, the statements of the witnesses, and the science.

Anyone who reads the eyewitness testemony of those who saw the entire event and looked at the reports would find that the initiating event was one or two white flash, high explosive, high velocity ordnance like detonations... followed some seconds later (not an insignificant amount of time), by the ORANGE, deflagration of the fuel/air mix of the "massive fireball". Why don't you look at the handdrawn diagram Mike Wire made to show what he saw??? The "Massive Fireball" IS shown much lower in the sky than the intercept point of the ascending contrail and TWA-800.

"In the real world the Trial Court is presided over by an expert, the Judge..."

That's a good one. I can show you Superior Court judges whose only claim to expertise is the fact they were college mates of the Governor of a state... and Federal Court judges whose expertise is more political than judicial. Many judges are judges soley because they cannot make it in private practice and are willing to work for the $110,000 a judge makes! You were aware that judges are often reversed for ERRORS, aren't you?

"Juries are not supposed to let "their life experiences, education, and knowledge from other sources" influence their decision - but in the real world they often do. In that event, however, it may be grounds for a new trial."

Only in your world. I have served on four criminal juries and have been the foreman of our County's Criminal Grand Jury for a year. In EACH of those trial instances both the judge and the contending counsels TOLD the jury to apply their knowledge, experiences and common sense in weighing and evaluating the testimony and evidence. Your ideal jury would be made up of 26 year olds who had just come out of a 20 year coma!

The rest of your response is just more obfuscation and demands that I take on the role of prosecutor or investigator, and then denigrating me when I cannot take on those roles.

42 posted on 06/19/2002 6:34:26 PM PDT by Swordmaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Circular logic "a logical error, caused by first making some assumption that can't be proven true, then, on the basis of that assumption, deriving some result that is then used to "prove" that the first assumption is true.

You and all the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats made the same "logical error" at the outset of the investigation, the ASSUMPTIONS [1] that the streak of light seen by many witnesses was the ascending fiery exhaust of a missile in flight and [2] that the Massive Fireball was the Initiating Event when "the missile" intercepted the airliner. Therefore, it became your duty as Patriots to prove you were right. Therefore, those who disagreed with your interpretation of the witness reports are government agent disinformationalists engaged in the felonious criminal coverup of a heinous crime, the missile shootdown of TWA Flight 800.

"WHO told you that I assumed the "massive fireball" was the initiating event??? To assume that would be to ignore the evidence, the statements of the witnesses, and the science. Anyone who reads the eyewitness testemony of those who saw the entire event and looked at the reports would find that the initiating event was one or two white flash, high explosive, high velocity ordnance like detonations... followed some seconds later (not an insignificant amount of time), by the ORANGE, deflagration of the fuel/air mix of the 'massive fireball'." [emphasis added - caps your]

More textbook examples of your Circular Logic. NONE of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have ever been able to prove that the streak of light ascended, much less that it was missile exhaust or that it preceded the Initiating Event or that it was "a missile" or that there were ANY "ordnance" explosions.

What is it you don't understand about "at the outset of the investigation"?

WHEN did the first actual "witness reports" become publicly available? What are the dates of "the most detailed witness reports" you've indicated would determine your selection of the witnesses you refuse to identify but contend should have testified at the NTSB Hearing in Baltimore?

"Using our knowledge of how shoulder launch missiles perform, let's examine what a hypothetical missile attack would've looked like. The rocket motor of the missile would be visible and it would look like a light ascending rapidly for about 8 seconds. Then the motor would burn out and the light would disappear for as much as 7 seconds. After this, a second streak of light, the airplane in crippled flight would become visible. It would be different from the first streak moving slower, then it would develop into a fireball. We carefully reviewed the witness accounts to determine if anyone described a scenario like this, one that began with two sequential streaks of light and concluded with a fireball. We could not find anyone who was describing this scenario. [emphasis added] SOURCE.

The credibility of you and all the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats self destructed long ago and ALL the allegations of the tinfoil hats have been suspect unless or until proven otherwise since - including your own about jury duty and the Judges' instructions.

"The rest of your response is just more obfuscation and demands that I take on the role of prosecutor or investigator, and then denigrating me when I cannot take on those roles."

How would you describe - " . . . followed some seconds later (not an insignificant amount of time), by the ORANGE, deflagration of the fuel/air mix of the "massive fireball"? Clarifying? Obfuscation?

You didn't need to admit you have no experience as an investigator, It's been obvious.

43 posted on 06/20/2002 8:37:21 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
"The credibility of you and all the rest of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats self destructed long ago and ALL the allegations of the tinfoil hats have been suspect unless or until proven otherwise since - including your own about jury duty and the Judges' instructions.

Asmodeus... if you believe that then WHY DO YOU BOTHER TO POST MILLIONS OF BYTES OF REPETITIOUS BILGE???

Shouting louder does not give your arguements more weight.

44 posted on 06/20/2002 9:27:27 PM PDT by Swordmaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker; Rokke
Take your meds.
____________________
Yahoo TWA 800 forum
From: Jack Reed
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:09 pm
Subject: Wextry! Wextry! More About TWA Flight 800 Airblast Loudness

Finally, I've gotten a recording of an airblast signature that I believe was close to what hit Long Island witnesses to the destruction of TWA Flight 800. Read all about it in the attached Word 97 file.
http://attach1.groups.yahoo.com/v1/0LISPUx9NktuI47jDzTzx4drrbyxQkYDt47GA8vi6lhfWWGrf6_yEWuy8gZtak8uywamsguUpZQqkvu8kuZBgV65T7PcdLZXeUjamuyrUGfwqmdQ/Sort%20of.doc

Sort of, But Not Very Loud Explosion Airblast Wave
Jack W. Reed, 6/20/200

Finally, at long last, I've just gotten a recording of an explosion airblast signature, very nearly what I needed to show what all those folks on Long Island were hit by from the explosion that ended TWA Flight 800, in 1996. This recent test, conducted by ARA, Inc., for DTRA on Kirtland AFB, NM, was a 1400-lb ANFO surface burst, fired at 1700 UTC 30 May 2002. Its hemispherical airblast strength was equivalent to 1167-lb TNT (5/6) surface burst, or a 2233-lb free air burst spherical wave. That is pretty close to the 1-ton TNT that I have contended was the initiating event (IE) that destroyed TWA Flight 800.

Recorded overpressure, 24.8 Pa or 121.8 dB, was reached in 32 ms. Assuming this was half the positive phase of a sine wave gives 128 ms wave length, or 7.8 Hz frequency for a single cycle, for acoustic comparisons. Two closer gage stations were also operated, with signatures as shown, at 7.44 km and 2.24 km, with unquestioned, much louder, impacts.

Two ear-witnesses, the gage operator and an observing geophysicist, slightly disagreed on the loudness of this airblast, "pretty loud" versus "sort of loud", but certainly not very loud. Other folks were outside in the neighborhood, sunning, gardening, etc., but none were seen to be affected by this blast. They were not even curious about the instrumentation set up. On the other hand, this neighborhood has never been reluctant to complain when louder blasts rattled their houses (cages?).

In conclusion, at least this loud and strong airblast was reported in FBI witness reports from the explosion at TWA Flight 800 off Long Island. Check out relevant excerpts from their testimonials at my web site http://www.nmia.com/~jwreed.

What really blew up there? Certainly not a 20-lb TNT equivalent explosion considered by the NTSB Final Report.

____________________

Testimony of FBI Chief Metallurgist William Tobin

45 posted on 06/20/2002 11:32:38 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: All
Bob Donaldson's’ TWA 800 forum
DanPride - June 20 2002, 2:15 AM [excerpt]
Too many deaths to make fun of
"God I hate pompus SOB's that try to use ridicule to hide uncomfortable facts. How stupid do you think we are. I too believe Commander Donaldson was murdered. When I suggested as much he sent me an unsolicited envelope with three of his bumper stickers in it. I figured it was kinda like three stars for the thought."
46 posted on 06/21/2002 8:20:40 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
Yahoo TWA 800 forum
From:John Fiorentino June 23, 2002 5:47 pm
Bob Donaldson's TWA 800 Forum
From: John Fiorentino June 23 2002, 7:19 PM

Stan

Do you know why your BS falls apart Stan? Simply because you don't see a REAL threat when confronted with one. Why hasn't anybody knocked on my door from this super secret underground government you hypothesize? This subject is like the plague to most sincere researchers. Why?. And I'll say it again, because of crap similar to that posted recently. I did notice after the sh*t hit the fan so to speak the yahoo800 forum came to a frickin screeching halt. I admired Bill Donaldson. Did I agree with everything he said, no. I do believe he should be allowed to rest in peace without being disturbed by the eternal drumbeat of fanatical mountebanks.

If you want to believe every hair brained notion put forth regarding Fl800, that's your business. I want to get at the truth. My earnest sympathies go out to Don Nibert. I admit openly that I haven't the foggiest notion what I would be saying or doing if I were in his shoes. But regardless of my sympathies, I find I don't agree with (or unfortunately believe) much of what he has to say. I think he may believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

I've had doors slammed in my face to as I've looked into this thing. It hasn't detered me, nor will it. I offered to honestly look into anything you presented. I just request you back it up with some FACTS.

Look at the botch job Reed Irvine performed on the last little "tidbit." Look at the f***** attitude displayed by FIRO when I merely pointed out that SSE IS NOT SSW! What was the response from Stalcup?. I'll change it, he never did. What did Bob say?. He treated me to a geography lesson on Long Island. I frickin live 40 miles away!!!

No, you tell me Stan. Just what is this REALLY all about? A search for truth - or a G** d***** ego contest? [expletives deleted - caps his]

47 posted on 06/23/2002 9:50:50 PM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Swordmaker
Did anyone here see that C-SPAN press conference, held in a
tiny, narrow room with bad lighting? The pesented evidence was that TWA 800 had been attacked. I would like to see that video! Don't have the date or the name of the speakers.
48 posted on 06/23/2002 10:05:09 PM PDT by seenenuf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: All
Jack Reed:
[quote] Assuming that the explosion noise source location was that provided by radar for TWA Flight 800 initial break-up, acoustic arrivals times were calculated for each ear-witness report at their NTSB-provided geographic coordinates. It may also be assumed that specific events in the viewed demise of the aircraft were seen at nearly the same time by all these observers, various estimates of the relative time differences between these events and the sound arrivals should describe a constant time for each event time on the following graph. The large variations (± 10's of seconds) actually shown by the graph demonstrates the uncertainty of ear-witnesses in describing times to seconds on days after the disaster, when they were interviewed by the FBI teams. Also, when these witnesses observed these events, they had no idea of what was happening, and only made their connections after hearing and seeing TV and newspaper reports, which were also very confused in those early days. In some cases there is disagreement between witnesses at the "same" coordinates, which were provided only to 0.01° latitude & longitude, that is for blocks 3648 ft latitude, 2795 ft longitude, but representing only 2-3 seconds arrival time differences. Some said a visible event came before the sound, others placed it after the sound.

On the whole, however, it does appear that a large fireball formed, then split into two prongs and fell to the sea surface roughly 40-60 seconds after the explosion sound was originated. [end quote][emphasis added]


[No graphic shown for H,J,K]

[No additional graphics shown]

49 posted on 06/25/2002 11:28:56 AM PDT by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Judging from Lisa's story, she seems to have been on Fire Island in the Patchogue or Bellport vicinity,or perhaps even further west on Long Island? That snippet doesn't specify, and I am curious. Do you know?
50 posted on 06/25/2002 11:41:51 AM PDT by Donna Lee Nardo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-53 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson