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THE JUDGE AS PROSECUTOR: TWO DAYS AT THE "TRIAL" OF SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC
Emperor's Clothes ^ | June 19, 2002 | Ian Johnson, Jared Israel

Posted on 06/19/2002 10:52:54 AM PDT by joan

By Ian Johnson
Leigh, Lancashire * UK
[Posted 19 June 2002]
NOTE: For audio of 'trial' go to http://hague.bard.edu/video.html
For transcripts, go to
http://www.un.org/icty/latest/index.htm

Introduction: Ian Johnson recounts an incident that occurred while he was attending the Milosevic 'trial' at The Hague on June 7th:

"During the morning break I met a young Dutch lad in the lobby. He was studying medicine in Vienna but was staying for the summer with his grandfather in Holland. He was curious about the Milosevic case. Of course he couldn't find it on the television. So he'd come over to watch with his own eyes. He saw me taking notes and approached me. He wanted to see if I was thinking what he was thinking. His English was excellent. He said, "I don't know that much about the issues, but anyone can see this isn't a proper trial, is it? The Judge is totally against him. In fact he's openly contemptuous of Mr. Milosevic, isn't he? What's going on here?"

I work as a paralegal in the UK. So for me, the perversion of justice I had just witnessed - and with a British judge presiding! - was infuriating. But here was this young Dutch lad, not in the legal profession or involved in defending Mr. Milosevic at all, but a thinking person, and he was horrified as well. He wanted to know why his country was supporting such a travesty. This is why they have stopped showing the proceedings on television. Because the people, and especially the young people, wouldn't stand for it, would they?"

Here is Ian Johnson's account of:

TWO DAYS AT THE "TRIAL" OF SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC

To spend one day at The Hague Tribunal is enough to confirm the worst of suspicions. What is actually taking place in the heart of 'democratic' Europe is a show-trial so blatant, so lacking in legality, that it brings shame to those who are participating in it and to those who refuse to challenge it.

The history of the Tribunal's formation and funding is well documented. Originally an idea that emanated from the United States Department of the Army, it was brought into being via the UN Security Council in its Resolutions 808 and 827 of 1993. Not only was this act legally invalid, being that the Security Council had no authority in judicial matters to establish such a Tribunal, but its creation also involved a reinterpretation of the UN Charter.

Canadian lawyer Christopher Black observed the following:

"...the UN is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of its members, a fundamental principle of international law and the first guarantee of the right to self-determination of the world's peoples. If a people do not have the right of sovereignty, the right to self-determination is a sham. This principle is completely denied by the creation of the Tribunal. The UN Charter states that nothing contained in the Charter shall authorise the UN to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state. This fundamental principle, put in the Charter so that the UN could not be used by some members to bully others has also been fatally undermined by the creation of the Tribunal. The members of the Security Council, more precisely, the permanent members, now hold the opposite position, and I submit, do so for reasons connected more with imperialism not humanitarianism." (1)

The Tribunal's funding exposes its political character. Much of it comes from the US government through cash and equipment, with other notable contributors being the Rockefeller family, Time-Warner, who own CNN and have exclusive rights to broadcast the trial, and American billionaire financier George Soros. The Soros connection is significant. The Coalition for International Justice (CIJ), founded and funded by George Soros, supplies many of the Tribunal's legal staff. The George Soros foundation, the Open Society Institute, is one of the parties that obtain evidence for the Tribunal, and most tellingly, the Open Society Institute funds the main KLA newspaper in Pristina, a fact that has not been mentioned once by the western media.

POLITICAL BIAS IN ACTION

Even if one had no knowledge of the Tribunal's history, a brief visit to Courtroom One of the Hague Tribunal to witness the trial of Slobodan Milosevic would immediately give cause for concern.

Unlike the practice in criminal courts The Hague court itself is involved in the laying of charges and the approval of one of the trial judges must be obtained before a charge can be laid.

This extraordinary relationship between the prosecution and judges undermines the right of the accused to a presumption of innocence. Furthermore this close relationship can be witnessed in the day to day proceedings at The Hague.

I visited the Tribunal during the first week of June 2002 and can bear witness to the various ways this hand in glove operation of prosecutor and judge appears in practice.

I heard the testimony of several prosecution witnesses during the sessions I attended.

Each witness gave their, sometimes lengthy, statements that were then elaborated on by the prosecution and on occasions involved photographs and maps. At no time during this process did the judge, Richard May, stipulate a time limit on the prosecution. Yet when it was the turn of Mr Milosevic to cross-examine the witness, Judge May would instruct that a time limit be put on proceedings. At one point, in response to protests from Mr Milosevic, Judge May arrogantly proclaimed, "We are the judges Mr Milosevic and we have judged that you will have forty-five minutes to cross-examine this witness." (7th June 2002).

Basically a cross-examination should take as long as it takes, be it ten minutes or ten hours, especially as the accused is facing the gravest charges any human being can face. But in the peculiar rules and procedures of this particular court, the trial judges will ensure that this is not the case.

Additionally, the Tribunal has been given the absolute authority to devise its own rules and procedures, an unheard of situation in any other circumstance.

When we come to the way the judges attempt to 'protect' the prosecution witnesses from any piercing cross-examination of their statements the full political bias of the court is revealed. I understand from other reports that this is a daily occurrence, however I will limit myself here to what I personally witnessed.

On the 6th June prosecution witness Mr Buyo, a KLA commander in the Racak zone during 1999, in his testimony relating to events surrounding the alleged Racak 'massacre', initially claimed that Serbian security forces had opened fire first.

However, later in his testimony when explaining the KLA's actions, he testified that his own forces had merely fired warning shots into the air so as to alert their colleagues of the approaching Serb forces.

Mr Milosevic seized on this discrepancy and pointedly asked the witness, "Why, if it was true that the Serbian security forces had fired first, was it necessary to fire warning shots into the air?" A quite reasonable assumption one would have thought. If you are under attack there is no need for any colleague of yours to fire shots in the air warning you of an approaching enemy.

Mr Milosevic attempted to drive home the significance of this discrepancy at which point, with the witness clearly in trouble, Judge May intervened and instructed, "Move on Mr Milosevic, you have laboured this point enough. Go on to another question." Mr Buyo was off the hook.

A further witness, who admitted his brother was a member of the KLA, claimed he was an eyewitness to a 'massacre' of civilians in his village near Bela Crkva

He testified that Serb forces had entered his peaceful village, separated the women and children from the men and proceeded to execute seventy men, women and children.

In his cross-examination (time limit imposed) Mr Milosevic asked why, if they killed seventy men, women and children so indiscriminately, would they bother separating them in the first place? After a lengthy silence from the witness Judge May interjected, "I don't think you can expect the witness to know that."

The witness's credibility was further undermined when he denied any knowledge of the KLA kidnapping of both Serb and Albanian residents in his village just a few weeks earlier, claiming he must have been away at the time and upon his return no villagers mentioned it to him. Up to that date the kidnapping was the biggest event to occur in his village for years, yet, as a life long resident there, he had never even heard about it.

Proceedings were taking a predictable course. It didn't take much insight to grasp the following: A) The witnesses told a well-rehearsed story. B) If the witnesses got into difficulties during the cross-examination the Judge would intervene.

INADEQUATE WHEN CHALLENGED

This observation was further confirmed with the appearance of one Mr Ian Robert Hendrie, a member of the London Metropolitan Police who had been seconded to the OSCE and was part of the verification mission in Racak headed by William Walker.

Mr Hendrie told of his observations while he was touring the Racak 'massacre' site, using several photographs that he had taken personally.

Under cross-examination, when asked if he toured the site alone or if somebody had showed him around, he replied that the latter was the case. "Who showed you around the site?" enquired Mr Milosevic. "I don't know," was the astonishing response.

Here was a member of the verification team who could not verify who it was that told him about the 'massacre' and showed him the supposed evidence. But apparently Mr. Hendrie's testimony, dependent as it was on a guide and translator whom he could not identify, was neverthless acceptable, because Judge May impatiently instructed Mr. Milosevic to move on to another question.

However the other questions got Mr Hendrie into deeper trouble. He could not explain why his photographs showed only patches of blood and not pools as would be expected. Nor could he explain why no person's blood had spilled onto another person's body, which it was logical to assume would have been the case if all these bodies, densely packed together, had been killed simultaneously at this one specific place.

Enter Judge May. "The witness is not a forensic expert and cannot be expected to know these things." In other words, Mr. Hendrie's expertise had a dual nature. It was sufficient when he was testifying against Mr. Milosevic, but woefully inadequate when he was challenged.

Comments such as this, which pepper the trial every day, might be expected from the prosecution, but from a supposedly neutral trial Judge?

When asked by the defendant if he had ever heard of the 'paraffin test', (a test which can determine if a person had recently handled a firearm), Mr Hendrie didn't answer but left it to Judge May to announce that, "This test has been discredited" to which Mr Milosevic added with a touch of sarcasm "But only in the USA, not in Yugoslavia."

Mr Yemeni was the last prosecution witness I observed during my June visit. In his statement he claimed to have witnessed the killing of civilians in his village in Kosovo. He claimed he was hiding in his attic from where he supposedly witnessed the 'killings' and also overheard Yugoslav commanders communicating on mobile phones and comparing the number of dead with the number of dead at Racak. Mr Yemeni, at the age of twenty-four, was Mayor of his village.

Below I paraphrase excerpts of the cross-examination:

Mr Milosevic. "Are you a member of the KLA?"

Mr Yemeni. "No."

Mr M. "Are you a member of any political party?"

Mr Y. "Yes"

Me M. "What is your party called?"

Mr Y. "The Democratic Party"

Mr M. "Who is the leader of your party?"

Mr Y. "Mr. Thaci." [Mr Thaci was a leader of the KLA in 1999]. ***

Mr M. "When did you join this party?"

Mr Y. "I don't know."

Mr M. "You don't know when you joined? All right. Approximately when did you join?"

Mr Y. " I don't know"

Judge May. "Mr Milosevic, move on, it is not relevant when he joined the party."

Mr M. "It is very relevant. However. How is it that you were Mayor of your village at such a young age? This is very unusual."

Mr Y. " I was Mayor because I represent modern civilisation, unlike the backward Serbs. Modern civilisation that we are now building in Kosovo needs leaders like myself to take them out of the backwardness that Serbs kept them in. We are building a civilisation that is modern and we need intelligent people like me."

Judge May allowed this racist diatribe to go on without comment.

Mr M. "I didn't know I was talking to an intellectual. However, let me ask you about the conversations that you say you overheard between commanders. Where were you when you overheard these conversations?"

Mr Y "Hiding in the attic of my house."

Mr M. "And what was the position of the soldiers who were using their phones?"

Mr Y. "On the balcony of a house facing my attic window."

Mr M. "Which is how far away?"

Mr Y. "Fifteen metres."

Mr Milosevic holds up a photograph for the witness that shows the houses in question.

Mr M. "As you can see there is no balcony facing your attic. And the nearest house is more like fifty metres away. Is that right or not?"

Mr Y. "No."

Judge May. "Move on Mr. Milosevic. The witness has told you his position."

Mr M. "Very well. As there were no KLA in your village, as you say, and therefore the villagers saw no reason to flee, as you say in your statement, why then did you feel it necessary to hide in your attic?"

A lengthy silence followed. Then the witness resumed his anti-Serb rhetoric of fighting for a modern civilisation against the darkness of the Serbs. At no point did Judge May direct the witness to answer the question or attempt to stop the racist language being used by Mr Yemeni.

Mr M. "All right. When the Security Forces were in your village what was the atmosphere like?"

Mr Y. "It was frightening. The Serbs were firing their guns into the air all the time and shouting and screaming at the civilians. They were like wild men."

Mr M. "So above this frightening noise, above the firing of guns, above the shouts and the screams you were able, even from, as you insist, fifteen metres away, you were able to hear telephone conversations?"

Mr Y. "We represent a modern civilisation, that's what intellectuals like myself are fighting for."

Mr. Milosevic repeated the question.

Judge May. "Have you many more questions for this witness Mr Milosevic?"

Mr M. "I have about forty more questions."

Judge May. "Well I am giving you ten more minutes with this witness."

Mr M. "That just shows the bias of this court as I have said previously."

Turning to the prosecution witness Mr Milosevic continued.

Mr M. "From what position did you observe the killing of the civilians?"

Mr Y. "From my attic window."

Mr M. "All the killings took place outside your attic window?"

Mr Y. "I can observe all the town from my attic. I can move around."

Mr M. "So with all this killing going on you felt secure enough, just fifteen metres away from the Security forces, to be able to move around your attic?"

Mr Y. "With all the noise no one could hear me so I was secure."

Mr M. "So the noise was so great that the Security forces could not hear you moving around, but the noise wasn't loud enough to prevent you from listening to a telephone conversation at least fifteen metres away from your position. Is that right or not?"

Judge May. "Your time is up Mr Milosevic. Mr Yemeni, I would like to thank you for coming to give evidence to the International Tribunal and you are now free to go."

THE SCALES OF JUSTICE

As I perused Courtroom One with its judges, lawyers, secretaries and legal clerks, I realised that these people, working for this particular Tribunal, had sold their dignity and the dignity of their profession to the New World Order.

The essence of this Tribunal is summed up perfectly by lawyer Christopher Black:

"No citizen of any country in the world would consider themselves fairly tried before a court that was paid for, staffed and assisted by private citizens or corporations which had a direct stake in the outcome of the trial and who were, themselves, in practical terms, immune from that court. It is a well established principle of law that a party in a legal action, whether civil or criminal, is entitled to ask for the removal of any judge sitting on the case when there exists a reasonable apprehension of bias. In this instance, a compelling argument can be made that the bias is not only apprehended, it is real, that it is not of one judge but of the entire tribunal, that this is not a judicial body worthy of international respect but a kangaroo court, a bogus court, with a political purpose serving very powerful and identifiable masters. To be consistent with my thesis I will go further and say that as a political instrument designed to violate, to destroy the integrity and sovereignty of a country, its creation is a crime against peace under the Nuremberg Principles. Instead of resolving conflict as it claims, it is used to justify conflict, instead of creating peace, it is used to justify war and therefore is an instrument of war."

During the trial session of Friday 7th June Mr. Milosevic complained to the court that he had not as yet received a copy of the statement made by William Walker, head of the OSCE and a vital prosecution witness. Mr Walker was due in court the following Monday. Judge May said he would look into this.

The prosecution has been preparing their case for years, their witnesses are well rehearsed, hearsay evidence is accepted, as is secret testimony, and cross-examination time is restricted. Yet, as if that wasn't enough, witness statements are withheld from the accused until a few hours beforehand, giving little time for the defence to prepare the cross-examination.

Add to this the physical and psychological conditions that Mr Milosevic and other Yugoslav prisoners are subject to. They are treated as if they have already been convicted, being kept in cells and under constant surveillance, having their mail censored, family visits restricted, any communication with their families to be at their own expense, and restrictions on what they can see or hear on radio or television.

And, especially in the case of Mr Milosevic, a refusal to allow him to meet with the legal advisors of his choice. Several prisoners have already died while in custody and to the shame of organisations such as Amnesty International, no investigation into these deaths has been forthcoming.

Despite all this Mr Milosevic is bravely using the Tribunal as his battleground to defend his people and his country and expose the real culprits for the wars and break-up of the Balkans, Nato and the International Monetary Fund. He stated his position very clearly in his 11th December 2001 pre-trial appearance: "I can tell you that I am proud that I commanded the armed forces of Yugoslavia..I am here as a punishment for standing up against the danger of the biggest tyranny that has threatened mankind."

The Milosevic trial is expected to last two years, yet no matter how long a trial takes, no matter how many well-rehearsed prosecution witnesses are wheeled in, if the outcome is predetermined, then it is a show trial.

The resistance shown by the former President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, against overwhelming odds, should serve as encouragement to all those who oppose the wars, poverty and suffering inherent in the creation of a New World Order.

Ian Johnson June 2002
Mr. Johnson can be reached by email at

***

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Further Reading:

1) In 'The Other Side of the Story', two retired Yugoslav Army generals refute the charges against Slobodan Milosevic and other Yugoslav leaders point-by-point. Their sources include Yugoslav Army documents never before available. The original source material and reasoning refutes the 'tribunal' indictments and at the same time the narrative is informative, interesting and hard to put down. You can download the entire book at
http://www.icdsm.org/more/book.htm
Or load one chapter at a time, starting with Chapter One at
http://emperors-clothes.com/book/book1.htm

2) "An Impartial Tribunal? Really?" by Christopher Black. Can be read at
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/Impartial.htm

3) 'Unjust from the Start, Part IV: Learning from the Inquisition,' by Yugoslav law professor Kosta Cavoski is part of his series on The Hague 'tribunal.' It can be read at
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/cavoski/c-4.htm

Prof. Cavoski's series is a good introduction to The Hague 'tribunal.' You could begin with Part I, "Unjust from the Start: The War Crimes Tribunal vs. General Djordje Djukic," at
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/cavoski/c-1.htm

4) Attorney John Philpot wrote in asking if there was documentation of the charge that Hague Prosecutor Arbour conferred with Western regimes before indicting Pres. Milosevic. Read his letter, and the documentation at
http://emperors-clothes.com/letters/philpot.htm

5) In 'For Whom the Bell Tolls,' editor Jared Israel warns that the injustice at The Hague is a communicable disease...Can be read at
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/tolls.htm


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkans; icty; judgerichardmay; kosovo; milosevic; yugoslavia
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1 posted on 06/19/2002 10:52:55 AM PDT by joan
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To: vooch; konijn
fyi
2 posted on 06/19/2002 10:54:11 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
bump
3 posted on 06/19/2002 10:57:58 AM PDT by tomakaze
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To: joan
Bump! Great post.
4 posted on 06/19/2002 11:54:06 AM PDT by bob808
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To: joan
Amazing, and this is just 2 days of, by my count 65 days, not counting the 'obuse' during opening statements.

Hope Milo a 'speedy' recovery and 'vigor' in 'battle'. Judge May says the 26th of July is the deadline for 'prosecution' witnesses. Will he keep it? That's when Milosevic has his turn at bat, but who's listening. Certainly not any of our 'freepress'.

5 posted on 06/19/2002 12:07:56 PM PDT by duckln
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: joan
As I perused Courtroom One with its judges, lawyers, secretaries and legal clerks, I realised that these people, working for this particular Tribunal, had sold their dignity and the dignity of their profession to the New World Order

That little paragraph says it all. Buchanan was and is right, dump the UN.We better start looking now for a 3rd party candidate, if W doesn't extricate us from this mess and take justice to the 'terrorist' and the 'tribunal', we're going to lose the 'war'.

7 posted on 06/19/2002 3:05:56 PM PDT by duckln
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To: SANDNES
Simple, we're not getting our information from members of the ICDSM.

Emperor's Clothes needs you Sandnes.

I don't.

8 posted on 06/19/2002 4:19:27 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
No, you get your info from NATO and ICTY, a much more fair and impartial source - yeah, right.
9 posted on 06/19/2002 5:41:46 PM PDT by bob808
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To: joan
Slobo must go, lest the legacy of Klintoon and Maddy Albright be tarnished.
10 posted on 06/19/2002 5:47:23 PM PDT by JoeSchem
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To: Hoplite
I believe the info comes right from the transcripts......seems your KLA jihadists can't keep their story straight.

BTW how's about the 6 KLA leaders arrested in the past 2 days for killing their fellow Albanians ?

11 posted on 06/19/2002 6:26:48 PM PDT by vooch
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Tropoljac
Technically, ones a marxist and the other's a socialist.

Poor Sandnes - after all that ranting about "1984" - to find oneself in bed with the Ingsoc crew must just be so disconcerting.

And no, I don't find anything funny about it at all. It's sad.

13 posted on 06/19/2002 8:54:38 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: bob808
In late breaking world news this evening, it was announced that the traditional Serb Nationalist salute is being replaced:

The salute will now be rendered from the forehead, and the middle finger will be curled into the palm.

When asked for an explanation, authorities stated that the middle finger was removed from the salute, as those using it rarely had a f#@&ing clue, but added that the salute could still be used to show pride and instill a sense of unity amongst its' users as they explained their position on world events and their recent history to skeptics worldwide.

I'm bored with the opposition here, Bob. Gimme something I can work with rather than just your opinion.

14 posted on 06/19/2002 9:50:03 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
The 3 fingered salute is representative of the Orthodox Holy Trinity - if your comment/ joke was about any other religious group it would be viewed very differently. Especially if you showed such venom towards them. But, hey, it's the Christian Serbs - who cares?!

You are clearly intelligent enough to know that the Hague trial is a complete sham. You have lowered yourself to A'Brit's level, for goodness sake!

15 posted on 06/20/2002 2:49:46 AM PDT by Kate22
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To: joan; Canuck1
At no time during this process did the judge, Richard May, stipulate a time limit on the prosecution. Yet when it was the turn of Mr Milosevic to cross-examine the witness, Judge May would instruct that a time limit be put on proceedings.
At one point, in response to protests from Mr Milosevic, Judge May arrogantly proclaimed, "We are the judges Mr Milosevic and we have judged that you will have forty-five minutes to cross-examine this witness." (7th June 2002).

Proceedings were taking a predictable course. It didn't take much insight to grasp the following: A) The witnesses told a well-rehearsed story. B) If the witnesses got into difficulties during the cross-examination the Judge would intervene.

Ian Johnson: "I work as a paralegal in the UK. So for me, the perversion of justice I had just witnessed - and with a British judge presiding! - was infuriating.
{Good on you, Ian Johnson, this gives me some hope for my nationality yet in this matter!!!}

Joan - this is an excellent post; a really well-written article. Thanks for posting it.

I heard May the other day, in answer to Milosevic's objection that the witnesses are being allowed to make statements at the end of their testimony, say that 'most of them have been through horrific events and deserve the right to be heard' (or words to that effect). What kind of 'judge' would (a) make such a determination and (b) allow the witness box to be used as a podium?

This is a great article to be used in the mainstream press.

16 posted on 06/20/2002 2:58:02 AM PDT by Kate22
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To: Tropoljac; Hoplite
Funny how the commmunists are applauded here on FR, isn't it?

I don't think anyone is supporting communism, just a guy who had the courage to stand up to global imperialists masquerading as humanitarians. What's funny (and tragic) is these NWO Globalists policies are sometimes supported here on FR.

17 posted on 06/20/2002 9:42:42 AM PDT by bob808
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To: Hoplite
I'm bored with the opposition here, Bob. Gimme something I can work with rather than just your opinion.

How about starting with the article that was posted.

18 posted on 06/20/2002 9:47:54 AM PDT by bob808
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Tropoljac
Thanks for the kind words. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Slobo supporter per se. He's definitely a slick politician who funneled lots of money into the pockets of his family and supporters. And he should be held accountable for that - in Serbia, not by Slick Willie's henchmen at the Hague.

I also agree that he's a "non-nationalist"; anyone who's actually read his allegedly infamous speech at Kosovo Polje in 1989 can see it's quite full of praise for multi-culturalism and is in fact quite the opposite from "inciting Serb nationalism", as has been implied (and even falsely quoted) by the mainstream press ad nauseum.

But you see, that is exactly why I support him very much in his fight at the Hague. It seems clear to me that he's being railroaded, that his trial is a sham and nothing better then the show trials put on by the Soviets. The sole purpose of the show at the ICTY is to try to put a stamp of legitimacy on NATO's intervention by finding old Milo guilty. It's an attempt to whitewash the historical record by dismissing the entire series of wars as being caused by Serb nationalism inflamed by a vile demagogue. Mr. separatist "Islamic Declarations" Izetbegovic is not at fault for the violence, the drug-running upstanding members of the KLA are not at fault, it's all Serbia's fault. I'm sure even you can agree that's a load of bull. That's why Slobo has my full support at the Hague.
20 posted on 06/20/2002 11:30:21 AM PDT by bob808
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: joan; Kate22
Judge May. "Your time is up Mr Milosevic. Mr Yemeni, I would like to thank you for coming to give evidence to the International Tribunal and you are now free to go."

Translation: Judge May. "There's no need to waste any more time with this Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Yemeni, your 'evidence' is so far fetched I'd like you to go before you waste any more of this court's time. Now get lost!"

24 posted on 06/20/2002 1:55:55 PM PDT by Canuck1
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To: bob808; SANDNES
What don't you understand about this source being fatally compromised?

We'll debate something else, some other time, but I will not afford the ideological descendants of Marx, Engels, and Mao the dignity of a response.

You're looking for me to debate through proxy the ideological equivalent of NAMBLA here, and I'm not doing it.

Enjoy your rotten candy, kids, and watch your backsides.

25 posted on 06/20/2002 4:10:21 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Kate22
The three fingered salute, regardless of what it started out symbolizing, has been hijacked by murdering thugs working for an athiest.

Shall you berate me for heaping contempt upon cross burners or those wearing "Gott mit uns" beltbuckles next?

And can I get 10 "Bog I Havarti"s out of you by way of Christian solidarity?A Moose stole my Cheese!
That was no Moose, that was Odin.
Amen.

26 posted on 06/20/2002 4:53:17 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Actually, Hoplite, speaking as someone who attends the Serbian Church on occasion as a visitor and who knows many people in the Serbian community both in Serbia and the diaspora, apart from the few assh*les (which we all have to suffer within our own societies - some more than others) the vast majority are good peace-loving and kind people who still see the three fingered salute as a sign of the Holy Trinity.

There may be those who bastardise its meaning, but that doesn't signify that the meaning is altered.

27 posted on 06/21/2002 1:46:57 AM PDT by Kate22
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To: Canuck1
Exactement - Imagine, they have a biased tribunal, the right to change the indictment after arrest, the right to hold defendants indefinitely, they are funded by groups linked to the Prostecution and the Bench, they can coach witnesses, rely on Judge May to have a verdict in his mind before sentencing... they have everything going for them and still look ridiculous to anyone who cares to watch (and there must be millions).
28 posted on 06/21/2002 1:57:35 AM PDT by Kate22
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To: Kate22
If only some other people would at least have the chance to go before a trial, as Milosevic does, no matter how you disagree with it. Some are convicted without any trial. Without the right to defend. Where their religion/nationality is proof alone for their guilt. Why don't I hear the same people expressing their concern for those cases. The right to fair trial for ALL, regardless what communist or "evil axis" country they come from.
29 posted on 06/21/2002 2:18:08 AM PDT by bluester
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To: Kate22
the vast majority are good peace-loving and kind people who still see the three fingered salute as a sign of the Holy Trinity.

May they wrest what is theirs from the usurpers and pretenders.

30 posted on 06/21/2002 5:03:00 PM PDT by Hoplite
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: Hoplite
I must agree here Hoplite, just because someone is a communist, socialist and has such a site, it doesn't mean he is a monster, liar by default and that anything he might say is automatically untrue, no matter how much you may disagree with him ideologically. I do know why Milosevic gained so much support among many communists, socialists in Europe and elsewhere, and in many cases those people did ignore many things that went beyond ideology and that should have been condemned and pointed out regardless if someone feels ideologically close to some politician. That was their biggest mistake.

But I wouldn't just dismiss everything they might point out that may hold some truth, as far as the international foreign policy is concerned and the very apparent double standards in play.

32 posted on 06/22/2002 5:47:04 AM PDT by bluester
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To: joan; *balkans; Spar; boston_liberty; konijn; DTA; Fusion; nikola; Balto_Boy; F-117A; Wraith; ...
As a big fan of Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher and Pope John Paul II, the trio that led to the demise of world communism as a threat to individual liberty throughout the world, I am stunned that I have been put into the position to have to shout the following:

FREE SLOBO!!!!


33 posted on 06/22/2002 6:20:36 AM PDT by Incorrigible
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To: Incorrigible
Actually communism would have gone the same way without the three of them as well. Just a thought.
34 posted on 06/22/2002 7:07:22 AM PDT by bluester
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To: bluester
Lech Walesa and Mikhail Gorbachev would beg to differ...
35 posted on 06/22/2002 7:52:19 AM PDT by Incorrigible
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To: joan
Enter Judge May. "The witness is not a forensic expert and cannot be expected to know these things." In other words, Mr. Hendrie's expertise had a dual nature. It was sufficient when he was testifying against Mr. Milosevic, but woefully inadequate when he was challenged.

Those proceedings are so bizarre and surreal that they beat the Alice's Adventures in Wonderland . Some day someone will write the theater piece or a book titled Slobo's Adventures in the Netherland. And the awesome "Judge May" is straight from the Lewis Carroll world. I cannot wait.

36 posted on 06/22/2002 8:17:41 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: duckln
Judge May says the 26th of July is the deadline for 'prosecution' witnesses.

26th of July of 2003?

37 posted on 06/22/2002 8:19:15 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Incorrigible; bluester
You know the saying "Rome defeated Greece, but Greece conquered Rome" (by culture)

Was Communism defeated or conquerred?Western media resembles Brezhnev's Pravda and Izvestya: No truth and no news inside. ICTY is copycat of Vishinsky's Moscow trials. I would say that Communism merely changed the shape and color. And sneaked to locale near you.

It's still long way to conquer the beast.

38 posted on 06/22/2002 8:27:58 AM PDT by DTA
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To: Tropoljac
Bob, you're a smart guy, and I respect your intelligence but I think you're wrong on Slobo and have gotten suckered into the idea that he has been fighting the good fight against the NWO.

Using your logic we would have to support Nazi Reichstag fire show trial since the accused were bad Commies and Moscow show trials of the 1930's since the accused were also bad Commies (the ones who fell out of Stalin's favour).

And, appealing to your selfish interest, what is the guarantee that the precedent of this international sham circus "justice" will not be applied against you or people you care about. Do not ask for whom the bells toll, they toll for YOU!

39 posted on 06/22/2002 8:28:24 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: DTA; bluester; Hoplite
Western media resembles Brezhnev's Pravda and Izvestya

I was going to bring this up when Hoplite brought up the credibility of ICDSM.

People have posted recent Pravda articles that were more factual than the Western press.  And not just about the Balkans but in general.

It's depressing quite frankly.  However, this is the battleground for FreeRepubic.com and the Washington Post and LA Times and others know it.  Who will control the levers of the press.  The Bloggers (essentially FR members) or the Western Media-Matrix that is now under an oligarchy of ownership.

The Newark Star Ledger, essentially my local paper, has an 800,000 subscriber list and sells over 1 million papers including non-subscribers.  It is the 800 pound guerilla of news in NJ.  The most they have done with respect to the Milosevic trial is reprint the AP story of the day if that.

I've made note a number of times that my grandparents all came from Ireland and I really had little interest or knowledge about the Balkans until Beelzebubba started to threaten Yugoslavia with bombing.  During the bombing campaign, I felt like I was participating in history as we deconstructed everything Gen. Clark, Albright, Cohen and of course Clinton and Blair had to say.  Real time proof of bald faced lies!

What was surreal for me then was the thought of the baby boomers (I'm Gen X) running the press outlets that outright backed the bombing and uncritically presented the lies.  This includes the BBC (What my Ireland born wife likes to call "The real news").  These were the same people out on college campuses protesting the war in Vietnam.  Robert McNamara, defense secretary for Kennedy and Johnson, published his book, In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam in 1996, in which he reveals he was a traitorous liar (how he walks around in public I'll never understand) and not only allowed US service members to die but pushed them to their death.  Given these revelations, you would think the baby boomers writing the articles and questioning the government (Remember "Question Authority") would have been more circumspect.

Alas, it is up to us DTA.

40 posted on 06/22/2002 9:09:20 AM PDT by Incorrigible
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To: A. Pole
26th of July of 2003?

No, of 2002! He's said it so often to 'Mr' Nice, it's carved in stone. Mr. Nice has been shot down twice on the matter and is still banging his head against the 'dam' for an extention, but it ain't going to happen.

41 posted on 06/22/2002 9:21:08 AM PDT by duckln
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: bluester
Does this mean you're going to have nice discussions with skinheads, or is it safe to view them as losers who took themselves out of the pool of potential conversation/debate partners by virtue of their political choices?

These two in question have prostituted themselves to a failed cause to the point where anything they say is useless to me - I'm sorry, but they could tell me Tuesday comes after Monday and I wouldn't act on that information until I looked at a calendar.

43 posted on 06/22/2002 3:34:15 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Incorrigible
People have posted recent Pravda articles that were more factual than the Western press.

Which ones? Those written by Justin Raimondo?

Seriously, could you bring one of these articles to my attention here?

44 posted on 06/22/2002 3:36:25 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: SANDNES
What is wrong in working for an atheist Hoplite

Hoppie's just trying the latest divide and conquer agit-prop to see if it sticks.

Please note that he still refuses to address the actual contents of the article.......Hoppie doesn't even try to make a case that these witnesses were credible, Instead he makes a lame attempt to change the subject.....

45 posted on 06/22/2002 6:29:25 PM PDT by vooch
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To: bluester
Bluester - Unlike many on here I am actually in favour (in principle) of an international criminal court, but not adhoc tribunals, and not set up and funded by an interested party. That is just fake victor's justice.

We already have international laws, treaties and conventions - the very people who stamped all over these to disguise their aggression and crimes are the very people who seek one-sided justice. If a court is founded, then it needs to be done properly, but it never will be because the US will never support it. (Some of) us Europeans know that we're not infallible, but as the only current Superpower the US is hardly likely to allow its people to be judged by the likes of Del Ponte!!!

Hoplite: "Does this mean you're going to have nice discussions with skinheads?"
Many of the 'suits' are just skinheads in disguise nowadays anyway.

46 posted on 06/23/2002 2:05:34 AM PDT by Kate22
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To: joan
First the verdict, then the "trial". We are all truly in the wonderland of Alice. Scary indeed.
47 posted on 06/23/2002 2:21:35 AM PDT by botweiler
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To: Incorrigible
"What was surreal for me then was the thought of the baby boomers (I'm Gen X) running the press outlets that outright backed the bombing and uncritically presented the lies."

Not all "boomers" are bald faced hypocritical liars, but if I was gen x i might think otherwise. THIS boomer did everything possible (including temporarily suspending 2 websites and posting the news that was excluded) and losing friends trying to wake people up to the fact that the US was bombing a people and a country that had done them no wrong. So think twice next time, before you generalize, as I met countless gen x and gen y(or whatever they are) that could have cared less what was going on. Ever watch MTV?

"Robert McNamara, defense secretary for Kennedy and Johnson, published his book, In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam in 1996, in which he reveals he was a traitorous liar (how he walks around in public I'll never understand) and not only allowed US service members to die but pushed them to their death."

Even when the evil wolf came out of his dark slimy closet and spilled his guts(figuratively of course, he let his fellow countrymen do it for real) many if not most, who supported this immoral war STILL DO and still are angry at the protestors, which of course ol Macnamara himself proved were on the correct side. It's beyond amazing, its sickening.

"you would think the baby boomers writing the articles and questioning the government (Remember "Question Authority") would have been more circumspect."

(almost)EVERYONE has sold out. If you don't have at least 2 homes that you don't live in fulltime you havn't made it yet, and so you had better do as your (sold out) editor instructs. By the way, I'd bet you could come up with a few examples of "sold out" amongst the gen x'rs if you really tried.

48 posted on 06/23/2002 2:43:36 AM PDT by botweiler
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To: Hoplite
Actually as you mentioned it, I did have once a nice conversation with some Slovenian skinheads (by pure coincidence) together with a friend (a Serb) that wanted to put some sense in them. I feared the worst, but nothing actually happened, it all stayed in the aree of debate (even without shouting let alone violence). I have absolutely no understanding for their mentality or actions, I find their views disgusting, but that doesn't mean I consider them monsters. Unless of course when it wouldn't manifestate only in words but also in actions (such as beating foreigners, people of other races or just anyone they disagree with). That's where the line is crossed. When physical violence is at play. What is even more scary is that some of them actually can be very intelligent (highly educated), even rational people when talking about regular things that you can even agree with, but when it's about race, foreigners they completely lose it. And the same goes for people claiming to be communists, socialists etc..

You may disagree with their ideology, but that doesn't mean they may be always wrong or that you can easily dismiss anything they might point out. Especially since it may not have much to do with their ideology, views. I guess this is my weakness, finding the good in people that I normally never would agree with. Just as I have been surprised (positively) by some people here on FR, that initially gave me an impression of intolerant, even hateful (towards certain people) through their posts while later finding out that it was only because of the specific topic that I had the impression. Overall they can be quite allright. I think you get the picture :)

49 posted on 06/23/2002 3:00:19 AM PDT by bluester
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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