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A Note On Footnotes(Lincoln Bashing)
declaration.net ^ | June 19, 2002 | Dr. Richard Ferrier

Posted on 06/20/2002 1:32:23 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa

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A critique of Dr. Delusional, the League of the South shill.
1 posted on 06/20/2002 1:32:23 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
keep fighting the good fight
2 posted on 06/20/2002 1:44:39 PM PDT by GoreIsLove
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I have been looking for some documentary support for the claim that Lincoln did not attempt to free the slaves immediately upon becoming president because at the time he still held a large portfolio of slave call options at the Charleston Slave Market. I would be satisfied with any written support (other than this post) with or without footnotes.

Thanks.

3 posted on 06/20/2002 1:54:15 PM PDT by ned
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To: WhiskeyPapa
DiLorenzo, the Michael Bellesiles of Lincoln studies.
4 posted on 06/20/2002 2:01:48 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I would think that your endless rants attempting to defend the ridiculous idea that the States and their Citizens are entirely subordinate to the interests of the Federal Government would have discredited Lincoln fans as much as you seem to think a couple of minor errors discredit the truth about Lincoln.
5 posted on 06/20/2002 2:26:06 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: ned
Letter to Albert G. Hodges
6 posted on 06/20/2002 2:26:41 PM PDT by mdittmar
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Which came into existence first, the states, or the federal government? I understand Lincoln believed the latter. If true, sounds pretty delusional to me.
7 posted on 06/20/2002 2:39:33 PM PDT by slowry
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To: slowry
Which came into existence first, the states, or the federal government?

With the adoption by the 2nd Continental Congress of the Declaration of Independence, 13 independent British colonies became states under the US Congress.

What came first? I’d say Congress came first.

8 posted on 06/20/2002 2:51:43 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto
Yeah, that's why they had to vote the constitution into existence.
9 posted on 06/20/2002 2:54:37 PM PDT by slowry
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To: Fish out of Water
I would think that your endless rants attempting to defend the ridiculous idea that the States and their Citizens are entirely subordinate to the interests of the Federal Government would have discredited Lincoln fans as much as you seem to think a couple of minor errors discredit the truth about Lincoln.

A "couple of minor errors?"

Good grief, that's pathetic.

10 posted on 06/20/2002 2:55:58 PM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
I agree Walt's rants are pathetic.
11 posted on 06/20/2002 3:45:05 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: Fish out of Water
No, your Clintonian spin about DiLorenzo's inept or nonexistent scholarship was pathetic.

When DiLorenzo has Lincoln serving in the Illinois Assembly in 1857 when he didn't, that's not a "minor" error.

12 posted on 06/20/2002 3:47:12 PM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
When DiLorenzo has Lincoln serving in the Illinois Assembly in 1857 when he didn't, that's not a "minor" error.

It's especially disturbing because, apparently, he simply made it up.

Moreover, the source he used to make Lincoln a supporter of "deportation" of free blacks lacks evidence for his claim, too. Dr. D. didn't check his sources, when they fit his bias. And it turns out they were wrong.

The most comical of his errors is the citation of the words of the VA clergyman as though they were Lincoln's; the most blantanly pro-CSA of the small ones is his account of the military campaigns, and especially his claiming that the Army of the Potomac didn't get within 50 yards of the CSA lines at Fredericksburg; the deepest is that he never even notices that J.Q. Adams and Madison distinguished, as did Lincoln and nearly the whole founding tradition, legal secession and natural rights based revolution. The next deepest of his errors is a failure to distinguish perfect social and political equality from the issue of slavery. This leads him to use abolitionists against Lincoln, an to pretend that it is a great discovery of his that Lincoln's resistance to slavery was politically distinct from Phillips, Garrison, et. al., a fact known to any literate person for a century or more.

He gives no evidence for the take he wants the reader to have on the Gen. Dix/John Howard affair, he misreads David Donald, he persists in a lunatic reading of the Bank issue in the debates and in the Dred Scott speech, he misleadingly truncates a key quote on the Fugitve Slave law, he takes an historically naive and unsupported view of the possibility of peaceful emancipation, and makes a dozen or more similar slips or omissions or false insinuations.

The book is a mess.

And the more its folly is exposed, the better.

"Wide Awake" for Lincoln,

Richard F.

13 posted on 06/20/2002 4:15:48 PM PDT by rdf
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To: Poohbah
Coming from someone who like Bill Clinton supports a big central government I must assume that your reference to "Clintonian spin" was intended as a compliment.
14 posted on 06/20/2002 5:02:49 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: WhiskeyPapa; rdf
Keep up the good fight!
15 posted on 06/20/2002 7:58:38 PM PDT by CounterCounterCulture
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To: Ditto
With the adoption by the 2nd Continental Congress of the Declaration of Independence, 13 independent British colonies became states under the US Congress.

What came first? I’d say Congress came first.

So you point to the Declaration. The one that calls the states FREE and INDEPENDENT. (Wasn't it Lincoln that pretty much led the way in not referring to the United States, and instead called it Union?)

I've never heard anybody call the "Continental Congress" the "U.S. Congress" before. Did you just do that?

I believe our form of government started in 1788, that's when our Congress was put in place. Not 1776.

I'm sure you know several of the states have their own separate constitutions going back to 1776.

16 posted on 06/20/2002 9:21:46 PM PDT by slowry
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To: rdf
I'll take your word for it.

Lol!

Thanks for the review.

17 posted on 06/20/2002 9:26:00 PM PDT by nicollo
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Footnotes are the historian's footprints. I despise endnotes, and I loathe a book without citations.

A good, clear, up-front citation is honesty. Hiding it is the opposite.

Good post, and good work.

18 posted on 06/20/2002 9:30:39 PM PDT by nicollo
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To: nicollo
Good post, and good work.

Thanks.

The neo-rebs need all the coals of fire they can get.

I was interested to see that DiLorenzo was a member of the League of the South, which at one time had a "humor" site linked to them that glorified John Wilkes Booth.

Walt

19 posted on 06/21/2002 5:28:38 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: rdf
Moreover, the source he used to make Lincoln a supporter of "deportation" of free blacks lacks evidence for his claim, too. Dr. D. didn't check his sources, when they fit his bias. And it turns out they were wrong.

Every once in a while the neo-rebs on FR will tote out this charge against Lincoln. Then they sulk when one asks for proof.

Actually, they do a lot of sulking, for various reasons.

Walt

20 posted on 06/21/2002 5:32:04 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Fish out of Water
Coming from someone who thinks that "making up the facts" is a "minor error," your ad hominem comment illustrates the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your position.
21 posted on 06/21/2002 5:41:35 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: slowry
I'm sure you know several of the states have their own separate constitutions going back to 1776.

Yea they did as a result of a call from congress in May of '76 to break ties with England and form their own governments.

BTW. Do you really think that Washignton, Madison and the rest spent the summer of 1787 in Philadelphia crafting a constitution that would allow any group of conniving self-serving politicians to ignore at their pleasure. The idea was not to create a structure that would collapse in the first storm or be destroyed by opportunists but to create a lasting government that would benefit all. Taking a hike because you don't like the outcome of an election is not what they had in mind unless you think they were damn fools. But of course, the Confederates did call them damn fools in so many words even rejecting the Declaration principles of all men being created equal so it's no surprise to find the neo-confederates rejecting those ideals either.

22 posted on 06/21/2002 7:53:00 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: rdf
It's especially disturbing because, apparently, he simply made it up.

Maybe, but maybe not. I'll bet DiLorenzo had sources such as this from the white sheet school of history.

23 posted on 06/21/2002 7:58:17 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto
BTW. Do you really think that Washignton, Madison and the rest spent the summer of 1787 in Philadelphia crafting a constitution that would allow any group of conniving self-serving politicians to ignore at their pleasure.

You won't get a rise out of the neo-rebs on this.

They have to maintain that the framers met, and changed nothing at all, or even went backwards from the Arts. of Confed, which pledged a perpetual union. You have to assume that the "disorders" that G. Washington spoke of didn't faze anyone.

It's just another reason their logic is straight from "1984". Freedom is slavery, up is down, the Union is not a union.

Walt

24 posted on 06/21/2002 10:17:35 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Poohbah
Here I try to be nice, assume the best and all can offer for a response is insults. As for ad hominem attacks I donít quite understand how assuming that you are consistent in you support of an all-powerful central government could be taken as an attack.
25 posted on 06/21/2002 1:11:42 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: rdf
the most blantanly pro-CSA of the small ones is his account of the military campaigns, and especially his claiming that the Army of the Potomac didn't get within 50 yards of the CSA lines at Fredericksburg;

To anyone familiar with that battle claim is clearly a reference to the sunken road where confederates took up their position at the base of Marye's Heights. DiLorenzo's claim is a perfectly reasonable presentation of what historically happened there. Most estimates of the battle put the closest distance the federals made it toward the stone wall at about 50 yards away. The most liberal estimate claims that the distance of 25 yards reached by a small portion of a single division out of a failed charge by Gen. Andrew A. Humphreys. This is unlikely as Humphreys' attack, in which he originally ordered a bayonet charge on the wall, was nothing short of disastrous. It was wiped out in two sweeps with Humphreys himself having two horses shot out from under him and barely escaping back to the trench. Conservative estimates put the mark at between around 75 yards. What is definately known is that:

A.The closest position the yankees could even come close to holding was a ravine 150 yards back.
B. Not a single yankee force successfully made it to the wall in front of the road in front of the hill upon which the confederates staked their position during the charge, dead or alive.
C. Most of the casualties fell at around the 100 yard mark, the point where troops along the wall unleashed a full open fire.

26 posted on 06/21/2002 7:57:47 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa; rdf
A summary of that entire article's complaints, point for point, could easily be condensed to the following:

1. A complaint over DiLorenzo's characterization of the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

2. A complaint about the erronious context quotation by Lincoln.

3. A complaint about the 1857 date.

4. A complaint about an erronious Lincoln quote stated by another author than DiLorenzo that itself had come from a novel.

5. A blanket declaration of void against DiLorenzo's book, supposedly supported by these previous points.

Giving each a due examination, one finds they are nothing but more of the same this particular author has been shouting over and over and over again for several months.

It has been charged that Ferrier has built his entire case against DiLorenzo on 4-5 complaints that he repeats over and over and over again. He has denied this charge, each time asserting there to be "dozens" of unnamed other incidents like his 4-5 complaints. One would think that Ferrier would give some examples of these "dozens" of other complaints to better his case, and I know for a fact that Ferrier has been asked to do so. The above article was a perfect chance for him to do so. Examining its main points, it is clear that he did not. Ferrier made a grand total of three charges against DiLorenzo in this article, all of which he has previously made. Let's take a closer look

The first two of those three have been overanalyzed and hyped so obsessively by Ferrier that little room remains for any substantial further discussion of them on his part.

The one I marked #2 is about a single quote of Lincoln that was printed out of context in DiLorenzo's work and accordingly misinterpreted by accident. DiLorenzo immediately retracted it upon discovery of the error and has since corrected it for future publications. It is simply absurd to attempt to use this complaint to beat him with, as it is no longer even a valid complaint nor does it pertain to any of the significant arguments put forth by DiLorenzo in the book.

The complaint I marked as #1 comes from a single once sentence assertion in DiLorenzo's book regarding the issue of bank policy in the Lincoln Douglas debates. Ferrier conveniently leaves out the complete picture of this issue. It stems from where DiLorenzo asserted the presence of the bank issue having been mentioned in the debates. DiLorenzo overstated his characterization of their prominence, but is correct in asserting the issue to have been mentioned. When Ferrier originally raised the issue of this point, he turned to, as proof, a quotation by James McPherson asserting that "not a word" was said about the issue in any of the debates and declared the issue settled. McPherson's quotation, it turns out, was itself erronious as words were definately said, though they were not prominent as DiLorenzo characterized them. Now Ferrier exempts his earlier mention of this from his discussion, yet lodges the same complaint for what seems like the gazillionth time. He further does so to no significant end, as he fails to again address the major argument of DiLorenzo about Lincoln's economic agenda. Economics emerged only briefly in the debates, but more importantly were indisputably present in Lincoln's statements and letters of the same time and the years that followed.

His other complaint, which I marked #3, pertains to a footnote citation of another author. Ferrier has brought this one up as well. Going back to the cited author given as the source, one finds that, as one of Ferrier's academic friends who he asserts to be a Lincoln scholar put it, the error originated with the other author. DiLorenzo cited that other author and in doing so carried the earlier author's mistake.

Ferrier's inclusion of point #4 is unusual and of no consequence to DiLorenzo's book, therefore making me wonder why he included it in the first place.

As for his conclusion, a blanket dismissal of DiLorenzo's book, it is simply not substantiated. Yet again Ferrier only bothered to re-re-re-reassert a couple of the 4-5 talking point style complaints that have been lodged against DiLorenzo. Interestingly, those that he picked out of his 5 were ones that have either been settled and corrected, or are by no means as cut and dried as he presents them.

In short, more pettyness yet no substance.

27 posted on 06/21/2002 8:30:20 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Poohbah
"A couple of minor errors?" Good grief, that's pathetic

If you believe otherwise, why then have the DiLorenzo critics failed to move beyond these 4-5 re-re-re-reasserted complaints against his book to the supposedly untold yet never substantiated "dozens" elsewhere in the book?

I've been following this debate for a while now and have gone back to see its parts from before I started following it. All I've seen is the same stuff over and over and over, and it all ammounts to the same 4-5 petty complaints, among them those included in this article by Ferrier.

28 posted on 06/21/2002 8:34:23 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
If anyone other than you wishes to defend the scholarship in this awful book, I'll repsond.

Your reply is not worthy of further answer.

Richard F.

29 posted on 06/21/2002 8:40:36 PM PDT by rdf
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Bump for great freeping.
30 posted on 06/21/2002 8:43:09 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: rdf
I'll repsond.

That should be, I'll "respond." To anyone who listens and thinks. I will not cast pearls before swine.

31 posted on 06/21/2002 8:47:13 PM PDT by rdf
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To: GOPcapitalist
I have raised my children to understand that if they tell even one lie and get caught, they will never again be fully trusted by the person they lied to. This is an unconscious and irreversible consequence of getting caught in a lie. Nothing can be done about it.

You characterize the "4 or 5 complaints" about DiLorenzo's book as "petty". I submit that they are not "petty" and in fact cast doubt on the credibility of the whole work. DiLorenzo has shown that he cannot be trusted.

32 posted on 06/21/2002 8:53:08 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Lancey Howard
You can get a sense of this argument from this thread, which I am happy to let stand as it is.

Here

Cheers,

Richard F.

33 posted on 06/21/2002 9:19:03 PM PDT by rdf
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To: Lancey Howard
I have raised my children to understand that if they tell even one lie and get caught, they will never again be fully trusted by the person they lied to. This is an unconscious and irreversible consequence of getting caught in a lie. Nothing can be done about it. You characterize the "4 or 5 complaints" about DiLorenzo's book as "petty". I submit that they are not "petty" and in fact cast doubt on the credibility of the whole work. DiLorenzo has shown that he cannot be trusted.

How so? Have you no room for an honest mistake? DiLorenzo has indicated that perhaps the most major of these 4-5 complaints was an honest mistake, and took measures to correct it. I don't think it is reasonable to smear him over as a "liar" and "fraud" over that one error against him for a book of 300 pages.

A second of the oft-cited "errors," the 1857 thing, was a mistake made by somebody else that DiLorenzo transfered inadvertantly when he cited the earlier work as his source. That doesn't establish the charge "liar" against him either.

The rest of the complaints are almost all disputes over interpretations of quotes by other authors.

Further, I believe every one of these reasonably qualifies as "petty" and invite you to explain otherwise.

34 posted on 06/21/2002 9:48:28 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: rdf
If anyone other than you wishes to defend the scholarship in this awful book, I'll repsond. Your reply is not worthy of further answer

By all means, Richard. Why don't you just get what you've been aiming at all along done with?

Go ahead.

Put on that blindfold.

Stick your index fingers in the super glue.

Put them in your ears.

Then jump up and down shouting "If I can't hear it or see it, it must not be there!"

It'll save us all a lot of trouble. You won't have to consciously avoid what you don't want to hear and those persons who attempt to make you hear it. And the rest of us will look at you, see an irrational raving loon who has blinded himself to the world, get a good laugh, and go on about our business.

35 posted on 06/21/2002 9:53:54 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: rdf
That should be, I'll "respond." To anyone who listens and thinks. I will not cast pearls before swine.

Will you think in return after listening? I ask cause your indications thusfar have been otherwise.

Then again, I suppose some oysters can be stubborn. Have it your way though.

I could care not if you prefer to spend your days protecting a grain of sand while wallowing in muck, seaweed, and fish excrement. Just don't blame me for putting you there.

36 posted on 06/22/2002 12:10:11 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: billbears; 4ConservativeJustices; Twodees; shuckmaster
Dixie ping for another Ferrier article rerererereasserting three of his rerererererecycled complaints about DiLorenzo

Also visit post 29 if you've got the chance.

I responded to this article in a perfectly reasonable fashion by noting it was all recycled and asking Richard where the substance was. Then he shows up to post a rude single line non-response.

Needless to say, he's not speaking to me now =)

I guess that's what happens when the noble lie of Lincoln is violated.

"Such is the tale; is there any possibility of making our citizens believe in it? Not in the present generation, he replied; there is no way of accomplishing this; but their sons may be made to believe in the tale, and their sons' sons, and posterity after them. I see the difficulty, I replied; yet the fostering of such a belief will make them care more for the city and for one another." - Plato, The Republic, ca. 380 B.C.

37 posted on 06/22/2002 12:22:02 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
A second of the oft-cited "errors," the 1857 thing, was a mistake made by somebody else that DiLorenzo transfered inadvertantly when he cited the earlier work as his source.

Please do not forget the part where DiLorenzo not only took a SECONDARY source as gospel (which ought to show you how bad his scholarship is), but ADDED in the "fact" that Lincoln was in the Illinois legislature.

That goes beyond a "mistake." That's technically known as "making stuff up."

38 posted on 06/22/2002 4:16:14 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: ned
Are you serious? An 1861 options market on slave futures in Charleston?
39 posted on 06/22/2002 4:20:15 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: rdf; WhiskeyPapa
It's intersting to note that in his biography "Jefferson Davis, American" William Cooper recounts the only known instance of Jefferson Davis contemplating an end to slavery. Through his entire life Davis firmly believed that slavery was the proper place for blacks, mandated by God and nature, but he was once asked what should be done should slavery ever end. The Davis solution? A forced migration of blacks to Central and South America. Heck of a guy, don't you think? Makes Lincoln look like Mother Teresa by comparison.
40 posted on 06/22/2002 4:27:45 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Ditto
The Continental Congress was not a federal government. The states existed before the US Constitution was ratified and it was ratified by the states. The federal union was created in the articles of the Constitution. Lincoln couldn't admit this or his entire claim of supremacy for the federal government had no basis.
41 posted on 06/22/2002 7:03:06 AM PDT by Twodees
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To: rdf
His reply isn't "worthy of further answer" to you because he's absolutely correct. You're not a scholar, nor a professor, Dick. You're the president of some little online social club called the Declaration foundation which is simply a vehicle for Alan Keyes' ambition to gain some credibility for his insanity.

Your nitpickings about this book are being supported by people who haven't even read the book themselves. Before this book came out, most of the people who are agreeing with you wouldn't give you the time of day, because they're Bushbots who despise your champion, Keyes. Your most stalwart defender here is a Clinton/Gore voter who doesn't even belong on FR.

I hope you're enjoying the attention you're getting. It isn't much and it won't last, but if it makes you feel like something other than what you are for awhile, you're welcome to it.
42 posted on 06/22/2002 7:13:49 AM PDT by Twodees
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To: WhiskeyPapa
BTW. Do you really think that Washignton, Madison and the rest spent the summer of 1787 in Philadelphia crafting a constitution that would allow any group of conniving self-serving politicians to ignore at their pleasure. You won't get a rise out of the neo-rebs on this.

Not a "neo-reb" - I'm American by birth - southern (Confederate) by the grace of God.

The convention was convened with the expressed purpose of amending the Articles of Confederation. The Articles (that LEGAL government that the founders were operating under) contained a certain article 13 that required unanimous consent to changes (meaning 13 independent and sovereign states that existed prior to any union).

Washington, Madison and the rest spent the summer of 1787 in Philadelphia crafting a constitution that would allow a group of conniving self-serving politicians to ignore the legal requirements at their pleasure. Rhode Island didn't even send delegates, numerous delegates were appointed but never attended, and many delegates walked out before the convention was over, among them 2 from New York - leaving that state without a legal vote and authority to binding assent. Of those in attendance the day of signing were 3 that STILL refused to sign - among them was Elbridge Gerry - a signer of both the DoI and Articles.

Speaking of the Articles and that perpetual union, care to observe what Marshall stated about it?

Both Governments could not be understood to exist at the same time. The new Government did not commence until the old Government expired. It is apparent that the Government did not commence on the Constitution being ratified by the ninth State; for these ratifications were to be reported to Congress, whose continuing existence was recognised by the Convention, and who were requested to continue to exercise their powers for the purpose of bringing the new government into operation. In fact, Congress did continue to act as a government until it dissolved on the first of November, by the successive disappearance of its members. It existed potentially until the 2d of March, the day preceding that on which the members of the new Congress were directed to assemble.
Chief Justice Marshall, Owings v Speed, 18 Wheat. 420, (1820)
The states of North Carolina and Rhode Island were not part of that new government. The union between them and the others had been dissolved. So much for binding legal arguments against secession, the "perpetual" union had been dissolved.
43 posted on 06/22/2002 8:31:13 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: GOPcapitalist
In short, more pettyness yet no substance.

My friend, there is a silver lining to all this. What will they argue about once the few corrections have been made to the book?

44 posted on 06/22/2002 8:37:08 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Non-Sequitur
Are you serious? An 1861 options market on slave futures in Charleston?

;-)

45 posted on 06/22/2002 9:34:04 AM PDT by ned
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
My friend, there is a silver lining to all this. What will they argue about once the few corrections have been made to the book?

ROTFLOL! I suppose they'll reminisce about the "good ole days" when they had their little recycled list to complain about then continue complaining about it as if it were all still the same.

46 posted on 06/22/2002 1:53:02 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Poohbah
Please do not forget the part where DiLorenzo not only took a SECONDARY source as gospel (which ought to show you how bad his scholarship is), but ADDED in the "fact" that Lincoln was in the Illinois legislature. That goes beyond a "mistake." That's technically known as "making stuff up."

Actually, if I recall correctly the source from which DiLorenzo carried the error asserted that the statements were made by Lincoln in what he described as a speech given before the Illinois legislature, so the inference that he was in that body is there as well.

47 posted on 06/22/2002 2:07:45 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: slowry
Which came into existence first, the states, or the federal government?

Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Missouri, Oklahoma... Were all U.S. territory

The Louisiana Purchase, was made by United States

Florida was purchase from Spain by United States

And South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia ceded any pre revolution colonial claims to the area that became Tennessee Alabama, and part of Mississippi to the United States

48 posted on 06/22/2002 2:32:03 PM PDT by tophat9000
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To: All
I wrote:

"the most blantanly pro-CSA of the small ones is his account of the military campaigns, and especially his claiming that the Army of the Potomac didn't get within 50 yards of the CSA lines at Fredericksburg."

I got the following reply:

"To anyone familiar with that battle claim is clearly a reference to the sunken road where confederates took up their position at the base of Marye's Heights. DiLorenzo's claim is a perfectly reasonable presentation of what historically happened there. Most estimates of the battle put the closest distance the federals made it toward the stone wall at about 50 yards away. The most liberal estimate claims that the distance of 25 yards reached by a small portion of a single division out of a failed charge by Gen. Andrew A. Humphreys. This is unlikely as Humphreys' attack, in which he originally ordered a bayonet charge on the wall, was nothing short of disastrous. It was wiped out in two sweeps with Humphreys himself having two horses shot out from under him and barely escaping back to the trench. Conservative estimates put the mark at between around 75 yards. What is definately known is that:

A.The closest position the yankees could even come close to holding was a ravine 150 yards back.
B. Not a single yankee force successfully made it to the wall in front of the road in front of the hill upon which the confederates staked their position during the charge, dead or alive.
C. Most of the casualties fell at around the 100 yard mark, the point where troops along the wall unleashed a full open fire."

26 posted on 6/21/02 7:57 PM Pacific by GOPcapitalist

******

Now, this matter has nothing to do with who was right in the Civil War. It has to do with DiLorenzo's bias and careless writing. So I would ask anyone interested to attend to a few simple points.

First, DiLorenzo writes this, of the Battle of Fredericksburg: "More than 121,000 Federal troops attacked 80,000 Confederates in 13 charges across an open plain, but not one of them got as close as 50 yards to the Confederate battle line..."

I will take as my authority here the West Point Atlas of the Civil War.

In this battle, the Union forces were divided into two wings, of nearly equal numbers, the right wing facing Marye's Heights, where the CSA I Corps, under Longstreet held the line, the left wing, a bit down stream, facing Jackson's II corps. The USA commander on the Federal left was Gen. Franklin.

Here is what the West Point Atlas says about events on the CSA right.

"The ...attack was made by Meade's division, supported by ... Doubleday and ... Gibbon. Major Gen. John Pelham's horse artillery delayed Meade initially, but, once Pelham was forced to withdraw, Meade drove forward through a weak spot and surprised and routed Brig. Gen. Maxey Gregg's brigade in the Confederate second line. Gibbon, advancing on Meade's right, was initially successful."

Much more happened, the Union troops were driven back, and the CSA follow up was stopped by heavy artillery fire, and so forth.

Here's the point.

I called this a small error, indicative of bias on the part of DiLorenzo. I think that just right.

Of course Fredericksburg was a severe Union defeat. At the same time, it is simply not true to assert that no USA forces got "within 50 yards of the CSA lines at Fredericksburg."

We owe a duty of veracity and piety to our ancestors, on both sides. Meade's men had the only big Union success at this awful battle, and they ought not be denied it in polemical and revisionist writing.

Second, and more importantly, Dr. D. inserts this error into an account meant to show that the CSA forces were both nearly invincible, and in a superior strategic position in the weeks before the second and final release of the Emancipation Proclamation [Jan 1, 1863], and that Lincoln issued the Proclamation to save an almost hopeless military position.

Now, this is all half-truth at best.

Lincoln was, in fact, fearful that the Proclamation would appear an act of desparation, and that is among the reasons why he waited to make it public until a Union victory ... the tactical draw, but strategic victory at Antietam. That battle, and the similar events at Perryville in October of 1862, restored confidence in the Union cause, both here and in Europe. It should be noted that, at this point, both New Orleans and Memphis, two of the largest cities in the CSA, were under Union control, as were the capitals of two of the CSA states. After Antietam and Perryville, Kentucky and Maryland would not go over to the Rebels. The Union forces would grow ever stronger from then on.

It is perfectly true that the awful losses inflicted in the frontal attacks on Marye's heights, and the retreat of the Army of the Potomac were deeply demoralizing to the army and to the Unionists, including Lincoln. It is also true that in the spring and summer campaigns in the East that followed the Winter of 1862-3, Lee's men suffered casualties never to be replaced, and that from then on, the CSA was on a losing trajectory.

I beg anyone with an interest in these matters to read pp 38-43 of The Real Lincoln and the to ask himself whether what he has read is anything like a dispassionate and true account of the "The Military Context."

Best to all,

Richard F.

49 posted on 06/22/2002 5:11:31 PM PDT by rdf
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To: Twodees
I want to be very clear about what you are saying Twodees.

You're not a scholar, nor a professor, Dick.

You are saying Ferrier is not a professor, right? Am I correct in saying that you also characterized him elsewhere on FR as not being employed? (I suppose you mean other than by the Declaration Foundation.)

Am I understanding your assertions?

50 posted on 06/22/2002 5:43:10 PM PDT by Mad Dawg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]


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