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Bush Middle East Speech Discussion Thread

Posted on 06/24/2002 12:48:28 PM PDT by RCW2001

Bush Middle East Speech Discussion Thread


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; Israel
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To: ladtx
My vision is two states, living side by side in peace and security.

The 'stick' will have to come from 3rd parties, else the continuing characterization the the Israelis are 'invading Palestine' by crossing the border will continue.

301 posted on 06/24/2002 1:48:28 PM PDT by flamefront
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To: Blue Monk
Bush is calling for a democratic terrorist state.

You summed it up perfectly.

I didn't hear him say that. You must have been listening in NPR.

302 posted on 06/24/2002 1:48:37 PM PDT by ladtx
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To: mombonn
Thanks for posting this:

Deuteronomy 30:19

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Anyone beside me get the significance of our President quoting the Bible to Mulims?!

303 posted on 06/24/2002 1:48:37 PM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Honest speech.... Good job GW. BTW I just checked DU's reponse to the speech and saw a bunch of childish gibberish. Democrats are really just hateful morons.
304 posted on 06/24/2002 1:48:54 PM PDT by KSCITYBOY
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To: E Rocc
The biggest roadblocks to a real solution will be Hamas and those on FR who support them by denigrating Jews living in Judea and Samaria and calling for a new terror state to be built on religious oppression. The only solution is a final solution, eh? Once the Jews are out, it's alright? Tell you what, genius, take your million arabs out of Israel's PRE 678 borders and we'll THINK about making Yesha Judenrein.
305 posted on 06/24/2002 1:49:08 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Light Speed
The President put the ownness on them for their future...it was a fair warning..and just.

I agree. This was really more about setting the stage to gain international support for attacking Iraq.

Hussein has been talking about placing his son in his seat of power, and Bush places the ball back in his court with a call for peace.

306 posted on 06/24/2002 1:49:17 PM PDT by AlGone2001
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To: Teacher317
If Arafat remains as head of the PA, then the Palestinian people will have chosen. And at that point, Israel will be allowed to do as it must to ensure they can live in peace and security.

They must choose the course of their nation. They can choose to live peacefully with their Israeli neighbors, or they can choose the fate of the Taliban.

Once the choice is made, they must live with the consequences.
307 posted on 06/24/2002 1:49:36 PM PDT by hchutch
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To: Right_in_Virginia
I am imagine certain Arab gov's must be just crapping right now....if some act of terrorism by Hizbullah,Islamic Jihad,Al Qeda occurs against any U.S. soveriegnty..anywhere..there is gonna be hell to pay!
Iran and Syria most especially.
308 posted on 06/24/2002 1:49:39 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
I only paraphrased. See my #290 above for the exact quote.
309 posted on 06/24/2002 1:50:01 PM PDT by LisaFab
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Comment #310 Removed by Moderator

To: E Rocc
Arafat at least says the right things and often even does them.

You believe that?

He is a general in the war on Isreal!

311 posted on 06/24/2002 1:51:08 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Howlin
Try not to be so dang negative

ROFL!! Well, I was just citing recent history, and the Middle East hasn't exactly been CandyLand (for centuries), and sppeches very rarely get murderers to stop murdering... but I'll try.

It was a good speech, well-delivered, and uplifting for those who hope that the Palestinians will ignore their leadership, their education, their tradition, and the last 50 years of their history and suddenly and unexpectedly adopt Western Values.

Better? ;^)

312 posted on 06/24/2002 1:51:29 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: Grampa Dave
That was pretty much as I saw it as well. A list of requirements, all preceded with the small word if.

If you dump Arafat...

If you stop blowing yourselves up...

If you straighten up you internal mess and clean out the corruption...

If you start behaving in a civilized mannar...

But as Mom used to say, If the dog hadn't stop to $%&t, he'd have caught the rabbit. I don't see the Pali's jumping over themselves to do any of this, hence Israel right to clean up the mess its own way.

313 posted on 06/24/2002 1:51:31 PM PDT by gracie1
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To: Redcloak
Thanks for posting the speech. President Bush has given both sides enough rope to hang themselves. Methinks the Palestinians will support this and test to see if there is any light at the end of the tunnel.

I believe the Palestinians will find it easier to suppress their 'wipe out the Jews from Palestine' hard-liners. I think it is a harder task for the Israeli to suppress their 'wipe out the Palestinians from the West Bank' hard-liners. Let the games begin.

314 posted on 06/24/2002 1:51:32 PM PDT by ex-snook
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To: Grampa Dave
Anyone beside me get the significance of our President quoting the Bible to Mulims?!

It hit me strong! I liked his choice of words. The words show unity between the Jews and ("Christian") US, as they words are from the Old Covenant, which both the Jews and Christians read.

315 posted on 06/24/2002 1:51:48 PM PDT by AlGone2001
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To: RCW2001
I wonder why Reuters didn't mention Bush saying a state can't be based on terror.....perhaps because they love terrorism.

I have never seen a Reuters contact before....let's e-mail the newsroom there and tell them what we think...:)
316 posted on 06/24/2002 1:52:14 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: Right_in_Virginia
These words do speak of dignity to the Palistinian people - something not even the Palistinians think about w. reference to themselves. They have been programmed to think only of hatred, only of bombings, only of violence.

It is a madness they have had poured into their brains - day after day.

One speech won't change the brainwashing - but it is a start. And it is clear. So clear.

It's almost like there is this sound and fury of a terrible storm - and there in the middle of it - you hear a quiet but strong voice of calm and sanity.

Everything stops.

The people who have been whipped by the storm winds stop and look up and if they are listening - hear words of hope. But the storm of the brainwashers will likely commence again.....bringing the storm back down upon them.

I hope somehow our people and the Israeli government will find a way to get this speech into the hands of the Palistinian people and then let it go from there.

Surely - the "Arab street" has heard the words in the midst of the storm. Will they stop and move towards peace or not?

"This moment is both an opportunity and a test for all parties in the Middle East: an opportunity to lay the foundations for future peace; a test to show who is serious about peace and who is not. The choice here is stark and simple. The Bible says, "I have set before you life and death; therefore, choose life." The time has arrived for everyone in this conflict to choose peace, and hope, and life. "

What calm words. The truth, as quietly and calmly as it can be said. They can choose peace and life or they can choose war and death. Every peace-loving person in this world should be in prayer that they choose peace and life.

317 posted on 06/24/2002 1:52:18 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Registered
This is off-point for this thread, but could it be possible these reactors might be used for power production? Haven't read much about it other than that the proposal pre-dates this administration.
318 posted on 06/24/2002 1:52:33 PM PDT by LisaFab
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To: E Rocc
It will discomfort the Israeli leadership mainly because it will enrage the squatter lobby. They hold disproportionate power due to the tight balance between Likud and Labor.

Not like the million plus Israeli arabs who vote for Labor...? There's nothing more stupid than a shill for terrorists who doesn't know anything about Israel except what he cuts and paste from pro-islamic terror sites. BTW, know many Islamic countries where Jews and Christians can vote and run for office? And Detroit doesn't count.

319 posted on 06/24/2002 1:52:43 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: flamefront
The up-side to creating a Palestinian state as soon as possible would be that they could all be moved into one centralized area. It would also create a focal point, a country instead of an ambiguous PA with no real boundaries. A sort of "aiming point", at which to concentrate. I believe, given the Palestinian predisposition toward anarchy, any Palestinian state most probably could not survive without sucking money from other Arab nations, thereby linking them monetarily and politically with what would most likely be termed a terrorist nation from the very start.
320 posted on 06/24/2002 1:53:05 PM PDT by ladtx
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To: AlGone2001
Jordan also has elections, and as far as I know they have been pretty clean. While the King is the unelected head of state, and the upper house of Parliament is appointed by the King, the lower house is democratically elected, and it must consent to the passage of any law, tax increase, and the like.

For primitive societies such as those of the Arabs, I think the Jordanian model is probably the best. I hope the Palestinians cab adopt something like it, though I'm not sure if a suitable King for them is to be found.

321 posted on 06/24/2002 1:53:11 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: Grampa Dave
Anyone beside me get the significance of our President quoting the Bible to Mulims?!

I commented in post #160.

I loved it, quoting the Torah to the Palestinians!

322 posted on 06/24/2002 1:53:45 PM PDT by dawn53
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To: Light Speed
The president was VERY specific in this speech. He said: "I've said in the past that nations are either with us or against us in the war on terror..."; and then reminded them exactly what he means by "you are with us".

A very powerful speech; and a direct test for all our Arab "friends".
323 posted on 06/24/2002 1:54:15 PM PDT by Right_in_Virginia
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To: Registered
well, I think Bush said/implied it...I didn't mean that I thought it was true! LOL

PS - great Turner!
324 posted on 06/24/2002 1:54:17 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: carton253
Thanks for correction - and yes - you?
325 posted on 06/24/2002 1:54:59 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: hchutch
Well put...

Once the choice is made, they must live with the consequences

but what are these consequences? Nuking Mecca? Nude photos of Arafat leaked to Larry Flynt? Never again entertaining the idea of a Palestinian state? Less restaint of the IDF from America? More talks with no results other than more of the same? I would've been overjoyed to hear the "or else" (the stick), because Bush does seem to follow through on his word.

326 posted on 06/24/2002 1:55:23 PM PDT by Teacher317
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Comment #327 Removed by Moderator

To: cardinal4
Turns out GWBush said the word "occupation" 5 times.
328 posted on 06/24/2002 1:55:29 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: ladtx; animus
Hey, lay off animus please. I like that remark and I appreciate what animus means. Think about it....
329 posted on 06/24/2002 1:55:33 PM PDT by Donna Lee Nardo
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To: Grampa Dave
Anyone beside me get the significance of our President quoting the Bible to Mulims?!

Good observation

330 posted on 06/24/2002 1:55:37 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: carton253
You leave that open so you can do what needs to be done. Kind of like dire consequences. Sounds bad, could be bad, should be avoid at all cost.

Thanks carton. So the President didn't actually lay out what the consequences would be? Sort of like "strategic ambiguity"?

331 posted on 06/24/2002 1:55:38 PM PDT by ksen
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
"What calm words. The truth, as quietly and calmly as it can be said. They can choose peace and life or they can choose war and death."

You captured the essence of the president's speech beautifully.

332 posted on 06/24/2002 1:56:09 PM PDT by Right_in_Virginia
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To: Teacher317
Thanks for the reminder; sometimes, sadly, a speech is just a speech.
333 posted on 06/24/2002 1:56:12 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: E Rocc
I think you are correct about Arafat. Bush probably hopes he loses the election, but by not mentioning him specifically by name he leaves open the possibility that Arafat stays if he wins. The calling of elections in parliamentary systems is often referred to as "electing new leadership," even if the incumbent party wins.
334 posted on 06/24/2002 1:56:28 PM PDT by traditionalist
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To: Yehuda; hchutch; Miss Marple; Howlin; rintense
You might be interested in President's actual words dealing with your concerns:

I've said in the past that nations are either with us or against us in the war on terror. To be counted on the side of peace, nations must act. Every leader actually committed to peace will end incitement to violence in official media, and publicly denounce homicide bombings. Every nation actually committed to peace will stop the flow of money, equipment and recruits to terrorist groups seeking the destruction of Israel -- including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah. Every nation actually committed to peace must block the shipment of Iranian supplies to these groups, and oppose regimes that promote terror, like Iraq. And Syria must choose the right side in the war on terror by closing terrorist camps and expelling terrorist organizations.

This is a clear warning to the Islamic Thugs who control Iran, Iraq and Syria. The Opecker Princes have to soiling their expensive silk robes so fast, they probably have standing orders from Harrods to ship them 14 to 21 new silk robes each week at a minimum.

335 posted on 06/24/2002 1:56:50 PM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: KSCITYBOY
LOL - Democrats are really hateful morons. Most of them are, yes. The DU ones are, yes. (I actually know a few Democrats who are actually decent people. It's a secret, so don't tell anybody).
336 posted on 06/24/2002 1:56:53 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Blue Monk
Yes.. that's the point of the speech. Right now the world believes the spins of the Palestinians saying we are peaceful people... opressed and downtrodden. If we only had our state... life would be peaceful.

It's a bunch of lies...(and Bush realizes it)

They want the destruction of Israel... plain and simple.

Now, they get their state providing they do away with terror and the head terrorist and reform and uncorrupt, etc.

But guess what! They don't want it. They are about to be exposed big time.... And when the emperor finally is revealed to be naked... then, all the games that are played over there can be swept aside. Action can be taken.

This is only the first step. The line in the sand. I do not believe that Bush believes Arafat will go... but Bush is done with Arafat and must have good cause to remove him.

It won't be Israel that forces Bush's hand. It will be Arafat himself. And when he is gone... The Saudi's and the Egyptians, and the Jordanians won't be able to say that the US is unfair or on the side of Israel.

337 posted on 06/24/2002 1:57:51 PM PDT by carton253
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To: Donna Lee Nardo
Hey, lay off animus please. I like that remark and I appreciate what animus means. Think about it....

Well he/she certainly has plenty of it.

338 posted on 06/24/2002 1:58:24 PM PDT by ladtx
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To: cmsgop
I believe that was Clinton. He failed to support the Shietes(sp) to the south and the Kurds to the north. He called it off in the last minute and alot of people were killed.

Sorry, that is not what Teacher317 was referring to. Right after Desert Storm was called to a halt, several groups of Iraqi regular army units revolted. The elder Bush chose to support them with only words.

Meanwhile, General Dumbkopf allowed the Iraqi government to fly "unarmed" consular flights. The Iraqi government of course immediately sent up gunships. Dumbkopf's reaction was "I was tricked fair and square." Any astute statesman or general would have used that breach of the ceasefire as reason to resume the war against Saddam.

This is also one of the reasons we are very unlikely to get local help in Iraq until we actually prove ourselves. We have an unfortunate tendency to support like a gallows supports a hanged man.

339 posted on 06/24/2002 1:58:25 PM PDT by ExpandNATO
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To: dawn53; Grampa Dave
"Anyone beside me get the significance of our President quoting the Bible to Mulims?!"

YES!..The moment I heard it. The president has a core of steel.

340 posted on 06/24/2002 1:58:44 PM PDT by Right_in_Virginia
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To: Teacher317
Memo to slugbug: you remind me of MY husband, always looking at the BAD stuff first.........LOL.

Of course, it's not going to do any good; but the point is WE have to at least give the APPEARANCE of doing the right thing......and they dropping the hammer.

Didn't your mother ever tell you what mine did? "We don't do what THEY do, we do what you're SUPPOSE to do."

341 posted on 06/24/2002 1:58:48 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: Teacher317
but what are these consequences?

I could be wrong .. but I think the part where he said That Israel has every right to defend themselves would be one ..

342 posted on 06/24/2002 1:58:53 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: rwfromkansas
Call the WH comment line....202-456-1111

I called and left a supporting comment.

The wait is less than 5-minutes.

343 posted on 06/24/2002 1:59:08 PM PDT by AlGone2001
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To: Types_with_Fist
The speech won't change the Arabs' behavior. The point is that from this point forward, for political/diplomatic purposes, W can can sat "Hey man, I gave them a chance. They chose not to take it." He's cleared the path for himself to take a hard line for whatever comes next.
344 posted on 06/24/2002 1:59:10 PM PDT by ChiefsMan
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To: Teacher317
Bush probably left that for behind-the-scenes. Powell's got a new line to deliver to the Arab nations, and it's probabyl going to detail the "or else" in very clear detail. Starting with, "keep in mind what happened in 1967, 1973, and 1982", and followed by "we're not going to hold `em back this time."


345 posted on 06/24/2002 1:59:13 PM PDT by hchutch
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To: Yehuda
Absolutely. I loved it over there and can't wait to go back. Those heights are formidable, and Israel must control them.

As regards to the Palestinians, I side with Netanyahu. Give them self-rule, but not sovereignity. Nothing good can come from Palestinian sovereignity.

346 posted on 06/24/2002 1:59:20 PM PDT by carton253
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Very well stated. Most of the great non-communist independence movements have been led by men whose goal was peace and freedom, men like Gandhi and Mandela and I would add Pope John Paul regarding Eastern Europe. Like the Iranian revolution, however, the Palistinians have gone down a different path, seeking dictatorship, repression and war with neighboring countries. I am so proud of President Bush calling the Palis out for their corruption and culture of death and violence and stating the principles for which we stand with such clarity.
347 posted on 06/24/2002 1:59:41 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Right_in_Virginia
Thanks. What is amazing to me is the calmness in the speech. No screeching handwringing threats. Just calm, clear truth.

We'll see what they choose.

348 posted on 06/24/2002 2:00:22 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Teacher317
I agree with some measure of what you have said....I am not one of the anti-Bush-leagers, most of whom find ANYTHING and everything to disagree with him about, however, I think you are right to assert that a speech by ANY American president is unlikely to change anything. A people who are taught to hate, and particularly hate Americans, will care nothing about what is said by an American president (unless he had endorsed their murderous ways). Our FIRST president, George Washington had to send our armed forces to put an end to piracy and slavery by the Barbary Pirates (they were Muslims). In his journal, the general in charge wrote that it seemed impossible to convince these "bigots" that America is not a threat to "Mohammedians"....nothing has changed in the years since....(Not all Muslims are as the militants, but if they disagree, they may just die).
349 posted on 06/24/2002 2:00:26 PM PDT by Moby Grape
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To: dawn53
Thanks, I was wondering if I was the only one, and you beat me by about two hundred posts. I came in a little late and when I heard about his choose life from the bible, I went WOW!
350 posted on 06/24/2002 2:00:28 PM PDT by Grampa Dave
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