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Bush Middle East Speech Discussion Thread

Posted on 06/24/2002 12:48:28 PM PDT by RCW2001

Bush Middle East Speech Discussion Thread


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; Israel
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To: holdonnow
What he is supporting is a democratic Middle East.He is offering the carrot to them all, or else...and the or else is regime changes.I can't help it that you lack the skills to understand diplomacy and hardball statecraft, but if need be, I'll explain it again.
501 posted on 06/24/2002 3:08:01 PM PDT by habs4ever
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To: hchutch
Your points 2 and 3 above are nearly identical, so in your mind it really comes down to 2 points, not 3. Furthermore, your rhetoric is self-serving. You don't elect conservatives by supporting liberals and liberal policies. You might elect more moderate Republicans, but they don't support conservative policies (or conservative judicial nominees, for that matter). The moderate Senate Republicans, such as Lincoln Chafee and the Republican twins from Maine, prevented Bush from achieving a permanent tax cut plan. What do you propose to do about these folks? No, the president should be out there talking about limited government, individual liberty, and those things that distinguish good Republicans from bad Democrats. The goal isn't to obscure, but to project. it's not to win empty victories, but to win real ones. Oh well ... on to prescription drugs, right?
502 posted on 06/24/2002 3:09:34 PM PDT by holdonnow
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To: pyx
Fine, I'll respond.

I don't agree that just because he has COMPROMISED on other legislation, there is any reason to believe he will now. That's YOUR premise.

(As an aside, can you name ONE national leader who asn't compromised?)

503 posted on 06/24/2002 3:09:36 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: kjam22
"Let us know when one of you defeats the other because we'd like to be
able to visit Jerusalem and the surrounding areas now and then.
"

Surprise - if the pals control Jerusalem (or any part of it) you can KISS off visiting Christian Holy Sites. And as for those pressing American needs, when you create a pal terror state with W's requirements, get ready for more 9/11's
504 posted on 06/24/2002 3:09:50 PM PDT by Yehuda
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Comment #505 Removed by Moderator

To: holdonnow
Yes, that farm bill is the disaster for the nation, nevermind that Reagan signed one as well. CFR...well, he selected a strategy which may well be the best answer.

I distinctly remember you telling me that the appeal to the Supreme Court was a losing strategy during the Florida recount. You might not always be correct about things.

506 posted on 06/24/2002 3:12:34 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: habs4ever
I don't think who doesn't believe Bush? Your posting is incomprehensible. I do know that those who claim to speak up for Bush on this thread don't believe Bush, which is why they're having to reinterpret and embellish what he actually said, and create without any basis self-serving scenarios. The bottom line is that if the Palestinians don't do all that Bush said, and they won't, the administration will simply continue to pressure Israel to concede to its demands.
507 posted on 06/24/2002 3:13:22 PM PDT by holdonnow
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To: Miss Marple
I DID respond. Apparently he is just posting this to everyone who supports the President.

M'am,
Please see my follow up in #461 of this thread.
Thank you.
508 posted on 06/24/2002 3:13:51 PM PDT by pyx
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To: kjam22
LOL.... when the winner of this little strip of land in the middle east tries to take over Europe, then maybe your comparison will be valid.

Too late for you - they are already on their way. Otherwise how do you explain over 500 atacks on Jews in Europe in the last year with only 2-3 arrests...oh,. maybe it's just Christian Europeans who hate Jews.

I can see you now doing a Daniel Pearl: "My mother was Christian, my father was Christian, and yes they were registered voters in America - BUT I SUPPORTED ISLAM BY ADVOCATING NON-INTERVENTION!"

509 posted on 06/24/2002 3:14:40 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: pyx
Then why haven't you responded to my reply?
510 posted on 06/24/2002 3:15:44 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: AnnaZ
I love it when you talk "Bible" to us. You make it come alive. :-)
511 posted on 06/24/2002 3:16:21 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: Skel
No.
512 posted on 06/24/2002 3:16:24 PM PDT by pyx
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To: Howlin
Actually, I wasn't at all. He IS a good man, and near great when placed aside his predecessor (but then again, so is a radioactive rutabaga). I just wanted something more from him, and was disappointed when my assumptions didn't pan out.
513 posted on 06/24/2002 3:16:37 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: Thinkin' Gal
I watched and recorded the speech. It was the same old rhetoric. Either he believes in this utopian Pali state (if he does, he ought to be committed), or he's as duplicitous as his Arab friends. Bush is crafty alright. Who is like Bush? Who can make war with him?

Revelation 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

One word... NUTCASE!!!

514 posted on 06/24/2002 3:18:18 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Miss Marple
I don't udnerstand the defensiveness. I'm simply providing my opinion as you are. And if I don't agree with you, there's no need to get personal. Let me suggest that you're not as comfortable with your position as you suggest. And, by the way, all my statements about Florida, etc., have been published and posted, and were pretty right on, IMHO. But that's far off the point, don't you think? The President and his administration have been terrible on Israel. There's a clear breach within the administration between the State Department and the rest of the government and, for instance, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld). The President continues to try to straddle the fence, rather than put his foot down. This is more of the same, but with one difference. Now we have the President saying Arafat must go, and the Secretary of State recently saying that Arafat is the legitimate leader of the Palestinians, who the U.S. and Israel must deal with.
515 posted on 06/24/2002 3:18:49 PM PDT by holdonnow
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To: dawn53
Wasn't that the clincher, quoting the Bible to Muslims, LOL!!!

Not really.

Bush said in his speech, "The Bible says, 'I have set before you life and death; therefore, choose life.'" I think the fact that he left off the end "that you may live," and omittted the context: it comes as part of the "blessings and curses" in Deuteronomy," indicates that he wants it to be one message to people who know the Bible (Jews and Christians) and a different message to people who couldn't care less about it (Muslims).

ML/NJ

516 posted on 06/24/2002 3:19:13 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Teacher317
You BushBot :-)
517 posted on 06/24/2002 3:19:24 PM PDT by MJY1288
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To: irgbar-man; AnnaZ
Quoted widely by us knuckle-draggin' right wing Christians.

And applauded as you do by us tzitit-flying beanie-wearin' members of the VRWJC!

518 posted on 06/24/2002 3:19:39 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: ladtx
FOFLOL. You beat me to it. :)
519 posted on 06/24/2002 3:21:16 PM PDT by Darlin'
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To: Grampa Dave; RaceBannon; archy
Serious but LOL bump
520 posted on 06/24/2002 3:22:05 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Thinkin' Gal
since the "Who is like Bush who can make war with him" sentiments are coming from them.

While from my brief scan of this thread I surmise that I disagree with much of your position, I have to applaud you for a witty turn of the phrase. Very clever, made me chuckle.

I do think that Rush is correct on this issue, in that it smells to high heaven of appeasement(creating the new state of Polandstine?) Nonetheless, it may be a tradeoff that has to be made to enable greater gains in the region. Doesn't make sense to me yet, and I don't mind seeing others criticize Bush's actions on this particular issue, but for now I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He is far more shrewd, pragamatic, and focused on the endgame than most of the perpetual Freeper Eyores.

521 posted on 06/24/2002 3:22:14 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: kjam22
And eventually Israel will finish the wall.

And the problem with that would be...........????????

522 posted on 06/24/2002 3:22:43 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt

"What would John Wayne W do?"

523 posted on 06/24/2002 3:23:55 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: holdonnow
I've never been accused of being incomprehensible before,but maybe to those with your mental faculties, I would be.The big nut is Iraq and anything else the US does regarding the Palestinians is for public consumption throughout the region.And the word going forth is that the PLO is finished.Will Syria want to cross the US and support Arafat further? They do so at their own risk.

Keep up, now, this is major league statecraft at work.
524 posted on 06/24/2002 3:24:27 PM PDT by habs4ever
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To: tomkat
Good to see your friend in the box taking Bush's advice and getting some exercise.
525 posted on 06/24/2002 3:24:52 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
I think we are seeing God's grace in action in this President's life and it is stunning to watch. Very humbling.

"This election is a choice between good and evil." ~~~Al Gore, Campaign 2000

526 posted on 06/24/2002 3:25:12 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: E Rocc
No, I mean terrorists like YOU! Your use of the word "squatter" is appropriate for what you do here on FR.
527 posted on 06/24/2002 3:25:16 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: holdonnow
I don't get this kind of thinking. Bush said Arafat has to go? Wasn't it Bush's secretary of state who said that we have to deal with Arafat, that we don't get to choose the Palestinian leader, and Israel has to deal with him, too?

I share your surprise, but the only possible way to interpret the speach is that President Bush said the current Palestinian leadership has to be replaced.

This FACT is starting to sink in around the world, and the Arab media is already outraged.

Obviously a lot of Freepers were caught by surprise as well. Many, many posters jumped to lots of wrong conclusions.

When Bush called for new Palestinian leadership, untainted by previous ties to terrorism, he knew Arafat would not go willingly. That alone was HUGE, but there was a lot more.

For instance, when President Bush explicitly singled out Syria, he knew Syria would shake their fist back at us. This was also HUGE.

Folks, those of you/us who were hoping for a clear-cut and principled declaration got exactly what we wanted. It was diplomaticly worded, and that threw a few hot blooded Freepers off track. But the meaning could not be more clear.

This speach was an ultimatum. President Bush knows how it will be received in the Arab world, and would not have given it unless he already had the winning cards in his hand.

As we said in my Air Force days, "The fit is about hit the shan."

528 posted on 06/24/2002 3:25:54 PM PDT by EternalHope
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To: Miss Marple
And shame on you for the cheap shots against Ronald Reagan. I have to leave, or I'd deal with this directly.
529 posted on 06/24/2002 3:26:03 PM PDT by holdonnow
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Comment #530 Removed by Moderator

To: Jeremiah Jr
I'll be darned, I never knew that Miss Cleo was a bullfrog.
531 posted on 06/24/2002 3:26:34 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: holdonnow
the administration will simply continue to pressure Israel to concede to its demands.

Bush is not now pressuring Israel to concede. They are occupying towns daily.

No matter what he said - there would have been people on here blasting Bush - so, you get to blast him. Enjoy yourself. It is pretty ridiculous when people have to continually tell people what was said over and over and interpret it for them. Read the transcript and then go ahead and blast him. We expect no less.

532 posted on 06/24/2002 3:26:57 PM PDT by ClancyJ
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To: E Rocc
try an ARAB nation.
533 posted on 06/24/2002 3:27:13 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: holdonnow
Now we have the President saying Arafat must go, and the Secretary of State recently saying that Arafat is the legitimate leader of the Palestinians, who the U.S. and Israel must deal with.

How recently? Anyway that doesn't matter since the President today did lay out an ultimatim and the onus is on Arafat.

Another point what is it about those radio headphones that make people like you, Rush, and Hannity loud mouthed, pompous, know it all, malcontents?

534 posted on 06/24/2002 3:28:12 PM PDT by Dane
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To: Howlin
As an aside, can you name ONE national leader who asn't compromised?

M'am,
No, I can not.
IMO, your question is not an aside, its a relavent and good question. And that is the nub of my concern with this most recent national policy announcement regarding the Middle-East, imo.
No national leader has gone without compromise (Thank you Grampa Dave). I am of the opinion that in this case, it is impossible for President Bush to not compromise on what he has announced.

Sadly, any compromise whatsoever on the Middle-East policy announced today by President Bush, would be at least in part a capitulation to terrorism.

In fact, I'll go further, if I may. By even publically responding to the demand for a "palestinian" state, our good President Bush has lent credance to a causse furthered by the usage of terrorism.

Based on this, I am in disagreement with our President in his policy announcement today.
Respectfully,
Pyx.
535 posted on 06/24/2002 3:28:12 PM PDT by pyx
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To: seeker41
coming from LoEretz that's high praise.
536 posted on 06/24/2002 3:28:16 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Spiff
No offense, but there is something ironic about someone named 'Spiff' calling the President a wimp.
537 posted on 06/24/2002 3:29:08 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: holdonnow
I am not defensive. I am mystified by your interpretation of the speech.

What do you suggest? The President has laid down very stringent conditions for a Palestinian state. Either they meet the conditions, which would mean the end of terrorism, or they do not. If they do not, I believe that the President was fairly clear in his threat to them and to all those who support terror.

538 posted on 06/24/2002 3:29:08 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: EternalHope
An ultimatum, huh? And if the Palestinians don't do all asked of them, what will we do? Allow the Israelis to defend themselves? Some consulation. The Israelis should be free to defend themselves now. How many more ultimatums and false peace agreements must there be to make the point? wake up and smell the terrorists! We wouldn't tolerate any of this, and we shouldn't insist that the Israelis tolerate it.
539 posted on 06/24/2002 3:29:31 PM PDT by holdonnow
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To: seeker41
I agree with his comments, and I agree that Lapid should be put on the next boat out after Arafat and Peres. Lapid is one of those morons who thinks religious people are "bugs." He is scum. What we call Jewish White Trash.
540 posted on 06/24/2002 3:30:09 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: rmmcdaniell
As opposed to the Eyores?
541 posted on 06/24/2002 3:30:43 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: holdonnow
Now we have the President saying Arafat must go, and the Secretary of State recently saying that Arafat is the legitimate leader of the Palestinians, who the U.S. and Israel must deal with.

Who is the president? Just now his policy was put on the air - what Powell said before was Powell talking before.

542 posted on 06/24/2002 3:30:52 PM PDT by ClancyJ
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To: holdonnow
OOPS! I meant -- ultimatim.
543 posted on 06/24/2002 3:31:12 PM PDT by holdonnow
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To: Miss Marple
CBS characterizes the speech as "withdrawing all American support for the PA."
544 posted on 06/24/2002 3:31:27 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: holdonnow
We've got primaries to deal with that.

I see a difference, though, in points 2 and 3.

Point 2 probably paplies more to primary battles, although it can apply to general elections. Point 2 is about replacing a Roukema with a Scott Garrett.

Point 3 is aimed squarely at general elections. While Connie Morella, Olympia Snowe, Greg Ganske, and Susan Collins are not people I agree with much more then 50% of the time, the fact is, IMHO, the most important vote they cast is for Speaker/Senate Majority Leader, with the chairmanships that some with that.

Electing Connie Morella could keep John Conyers from running the House Judiciary Committee, Charlie Rangel from running House Ways and Means, and George Miller from running the Resources Committee, for starters. On the Senate side, it can be safely argued that there is a significant difference between Orrin Hatch and Pat Leahy as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. That means we have to work with Ganske, Snowe, and Collins until we can get a enough votes so that a bloody primary challenge WON'T cost us the Senate, or put us at the whim of the next Jeffords.

Let me add another quote, dating about two weeks from the time the first quote was made.
"I did not feel justified in risking a night encounter with possibly superior enemy forces[.]"

The quote is from the admiral who the first quote was addressed to. Now, I defy anyone to tell me that the Battle of Midway was an American loss because Raymond Spruance pulled back after sinking or fatally damaging four Japanese carriers, and shredding their elite corps of naval aviators.

The fact is, we have to pick our spots, especially where the Senate is confirmed. We've got areas where we can make a principled stand that will resonate with enough people to get the Senate back (the death tax). But we have to pick our spots for now, and save fights on other areas until we have the margins where we can fight and win those battles.

Aagin, I'm not just going to pick a fight just to fight them. I define winning as getting conservative legislation passed, defeating Democrats, and replacing moderate Republicans with conservatives. Admittedly, success in the first relies on success with the other two parts.

We have to stand for principle, but we have to get conservatives elected first, and to do that, we have to win polticial battles - or at the very least, avoid losing them.

I cannot help it if you consider me a sell-out because I prefer to do things this way. But I do not see how our principles are served by burning bridges and allowing our avowed opponents to win because we picked the wrong fight.
545 posted on 06/24/2002 3:31:50 PM PDT by hchutch
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To: holdonnow
Cheap shots at Ronald Reagan? Please get a grip.

I think I must be better at debate than I thought.

546 posted on 06/24/2002 3:32:56 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Dane
And what explains your mental incapacity, you little puke. You think because you learned how to type with two fingers that you can take cheap shots at anyone who disagrees with you. Up your dosages, jerk.
547 posted on 06/24/2002 3:33:08 PM PDT by holdonnow
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To: holdonnow
And shame on you for the cheap shots against Ronald Reagan.

What cheap shots? The facts are that Reagan was a pragmatist who compromised with Congress.

I guess the fact that Reagan signed a raise to the Social Security tax is also a cheap shot.

BTW, I still consider Reagan one of the greatest Presidents.

548 posted on 06/24/2002 3:33:09 PM PDT by Dane
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To: pyx
My apologies to the sensitivities of Grampa Dave and all those who might recoil at typing erros. I admit I am not perfect and don't use a spelll checker in my replies.
The word "causse" in my post above should be "cause".
Thank you.
549 posted on 06/24/2002 3:33:12 PM PDT by pyx
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To: E Rocc
You are a liar: "Considering that the President just ringingly endorsed the Mitchell Report as continuing US policy, I bet not. The broadcast media will probably miss that, since it doesn't lend itself to those 30 second sound bites. But the Government of Israel definitely got the message. "

He only mentioned a section of it. He also told your pals THEY WILL HAVE NO STATE IF THEY CONTINUE THE TERRORISM. Since your posts encourage the demonization of 200,000 Jews as well as their deaths, MAYBE LIKE ARAFAT YOU DON'T WANT A FREE, DEMILITARIZED PAL STATE, YOU WILL ONLY BE SATISFIED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.

550 posted on 06/24/2002 3:34:07 PM PDT by Yehuda
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