Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

English And Welsh Are Races Apart
BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

Posted on 07/04/2002 5:27:12 PM PDT by blam

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: apart; archaeology; caledonia; cymraeg; cymru; cymry; english; evolution; genetics; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; history; kingarthur; pictish; picts; race; races; sociobiology; uk; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 401-430 next last
Works for me.
1 posted on 07/04/2002 5:27:12 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: LostTribe; RightWhale; JudyB1938; farmfriend; ruoflaw
Cheddar Man
2 posted on 07/04/2002 5:30:32 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

???

3 posted on 07/04/2002 5:32:26 PM PDT by Illbay
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
very interesting...
4 posted on 07/04/2002 5:34:44 PM PDT by Joan912
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

I guess I'm stupid. I thought this was the way it worked all along. I didn't realize it was a controversy.

FWIW, I think now the Welsh need to go to the ICC, and sue the English for "reparations."

Mr. Jones can say "Awroit, we'll taik London, Birmin'am, Mawnchestah and Yo'k. Yew c'n stay in the othah places if yews behave y'selves..."

5 posted on 07/04/2002 5:37:37 PM PDT by Illbay
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
I've read in many places that the descendants of the Irish and the Scots migrated from the Middle East (Anatolia/Turkey) thru Spain and wound up in the British Isles, starting in the BC era. This would seem to agree with the genetic link between the Welsh, the Scots/Irish and the Basque's of Spain.

Also, the ancient name for Spain is Iberia and the ancient name for Scotland and Ireland is Hibernia. The phonetic similarity is not by accident.

The similarities dont end there either.

The ancient Gaelic language of Scotland and Ireland seems to come from the original Gallic language of Gaul in southern Europe and Galatia, where the Gauls established colonies in Turkey as mercenaries for the Roman empire. You may recall St. Paul's book to the Galatians as a biblical reference to these people.

It's always interesting to see how these items tie together.

6 posted on 07/04/2002 5:41:43 PM PDT by keithtoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Illbay
I didn't realize it was a controversy.

That makes two of us. We must have had the same history book.

It would be interesting to check the DNA for the maternal line.

a.cricket

7 posted on 07/04/2002 5:46:26 PM PDT by another cricket
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
Aren't we told there are NO differences between races, especially white and black..... now they're saying there are differences between Welsh and English..... hmmm
9 posted on 07/04/2002 5:49:47 PM PDT by Minutes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
The Celts apparently originated in Central Europe and moved both southeast, towards Galatia in Anatolia, and south and west, into Britain, Ireland, Gaul, Italy and Spain.

They later were pushed out of their original home in Central Europe by incoming Germans, apparently from Scandinavia.

There is a lot of evidence that the Celts displaced earlier groups, by either extermination or enslavement.
10 posted on 07/04/2002 5:52:31 PM PDT by Restorer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blam
The Anglo-Saxons should be forced to abandon the occupied territories at once!
11 posted on 07/04/2002 5:53:36 PM PDT by LRS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
Ay Cymru.

I am not a mere Celt, I am a Pict!

13 posted on 07/04/2002 5:56:32 PM PDT by chilepepper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
As the Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing proceeded, a large body of Britons set sail under the leadership of four primary lords and landed in an otherwise depopulated Brittany. Another large body of Britons from Cornwall sailed due South to Galiza. This was under a different lord who became known as King San Cho Noe I. He took over Carvajal (Kingdom of McWallace) and founded Castile and Leon.

Leastwise that's been my understanding from our history as portrayed in the King Arthur stories.

Interesting that this genetic study demonstrates their truthfulness.

(NOTE: Regarding "King Arthur", that's just the masculine form of "Boudicca" or "Boadicea". Although this name is usually translated as "victorious", it is clearly a phrase made up of "bo" or "bo", "u" or "a" or "au", "dic" and "ca". "Bo" is just another Celtic honorific, as in Mc, Mac and O'. It's not used often these days. "A", "U", or "AU" is clearly a Gaelic name cognate to "Arthur". "Dic" is clearly the root Indo-European for "king" or "queen". "Ca" makes it all feminine, as in "queen".

The "King Arthur" stories might more properly be called "Annals of the Kings of Briton".)

14 posted on 07/04/2002 5:56:43 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
"I've read in many places that the descendants of the Irish and the Scots migrated from the Middle East (Anatolia/Turkey) thru Spain and wound up in the British Isles, starting in the BC era. "

Yup. Linguists have 'pinpointed' the origin of all the Indo-European languages to Anatolia, the mother tongue, so to speak.
However, the Basque language is not related in any way to the Indo-European languages. (Which still puzzles me.)

15 posted on 07/04/2002 5:57:17 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
BRITS OUT OF BRITAIN!

signed
Welsh Republican Army

17 posted on 07/04/2002 6:00:56 PM PDT by jordan8
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: the_right_way
"FREE WELSHISTINE"

Alright!!!!

18 posted on 07/04/2002 6:02:17 PM PDT by LRS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: chilepepper
Were these your relatives in China 3-4,000 years ago?

Cherchen Man

19 posted on 07/04/2002 6:03:01 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
Sounds like the Welsh are due reparations.
21 posted on 07/04/2002 6:05:12 PM PDT by IronJack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jordan8
Are you affiliated with the Welsh Peoples Front or the Peoples Front of Wales
22 posted on 07/04/2002 6:05:29 PM PDT by keithtoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
There are two streams of Celtic culture and Gaelic language peoples that converge in the British Isles.

There are the more primitive Continental Celts who moved there through Northern and Western Europe.

Then, there are the ones best called "Seagoing Celts". They started out living along the Danube near the Black Sea. They also founded a kingdom on Anatolia proper, across the sea from the Danube estuary. The Greeks called it Troy, and they called it Illium or Allium.

Prior to their involvement with the Greeks, they had association with the Phoenicians. Some of their written materials showed up in the library at Ebla.

Later on in history they engaged in conflict with the proto-Greeks known as the Romans, siding with Carthage in the Punic Wars.

These are the people whose relatives set sail from Galiza for Scota some time in the 700BC period. Still, through centuries of banging around the Bay of Biscay, there is no doubt they managed to intermix with the Basque people as well as the Continental Celts. It is their story of founding by the Three Brothers that is featured prominantly in the coastal areas of Western Europe and the non-anglo portions of the British isles (Manx, Cymru, Alba, Scota, Galiza, and Brezh).

23 posted on 07/04/2002 6:07:57 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
No, I'm just joking.
24 posted on 07/04/2002 6:08:25 PM PDT by jordan8
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah
Carvajal (Kingdom of McWallace)

That's interesting. I had a friend with the surname Carvajal. His name was always a mystery to me. I assumed it was Hispanic (I live in Texas), and he did have dark hair and eyes, but he really had no other Hispanic features. I never did ask him about his ethnicity, but it always occured to me that he was a white guy, and not a Spanish white guy either, but more of a northern European.

This answers some questions I had in my mind.

25 posted on 07/04/2002 6:09:35 PM PDT by keithtoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: jordan8
So was I. My reference was to Monty Python's,"Life of Brian", where the two anti-Roman groups were The Judean People's Front and The People's Front of Judea, both of which hated the other. Just a nerdy little tidbit.
26 posted on 07/04/2002 6:12:12 PM PDT by keithtoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: the_right_way
And remove that oppressive name, "England" from all text books, maps and globes, and start learning how to speak "Welshish"
27 posted on 07/04/2002 6:12:38 PM PDT by LRS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: LRS
Hey!! they dont like to be called Welsh! They prefer to be called Native Albionese!! Dont use the oppresor's nomenclature!
28 posted on 07/04/2002 6:18:47 PM PDT by keithtoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: blam
Maybe Tony Blair will put all those Welshmen on reservations and allow them to set up casinos.
29 posted on 07/04/2002 6:21:58 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
My father's family is originally from Galicia, and they have always referred to themselves as Celts. Some of his family returned there after the Cuban revolution and everyone in the village where they live state emphatically that they're all Celtic. My father has always felt galled that Castro is Galician and he thinks "that family was obviously infected with Moor-tainted Andulusian blood."
30 posted on 07/04/2002 6:22:17 PM PDT by constitutiongirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blam
It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

Actually, according to Winston Churchill, the roundheaded people were driven out by the longheaded people who were into making nasty weapons out of steel instead of copper or something like that. Anyway, I'll betcha those Welsh aren't the true indigenous Britons either. They all need to shove off and go back to where they came, the whole lot of them.
31 posted on 07/04/2002 6:25:28 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
...corrected version of nmy last post...

and learn how to speak Albionish....
32 posted on 07/04/2002 6:27:15 PM PDT by LRS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
There are two large groups of folks named Carvajal. One group is in Eastern France near Switzerland. They apparantly have been there since the 7th and 8th centuries when the Britons fled to Brezh. Vast parts of Northern France were devoid of people due to plague and other unknown causes - maybe the same reasons the Angles and Saxons were driven to invading the British Isles.

Some of the early families just kept on going East. They even have the King Arthur stories and everything!

The other Carvajals are from NW Spain. There are other names meaning the same thing, e.g. Gallegos, Galicos, Gallagos, Magelheis (Magellan, or McWallace).

They look just like Western Europeans although many do tend to tan deeper (messing around with the servants I'd guess).

Famous Gallegos, or Galicians, are:

Generalissimo Francisco Franco

Fidel Castro.

33 posted on 07/04/2002 6:27:30 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: constitutiongirl
Arrrr! They aren't reeel Celts unless they have music fehtured on the Thisstle and Shamruck, hosted by Fiona Reechy on Nashunal Pooblic Rehdio.
34 posted on 07/04/2002 6:28:03 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: constitutiongirl
Basque

(Why is Basque so fascinating.)

35 posted on 07/04/2002 6:29:59 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: dr_who
They've featured Galician pipe players before. Remember, all Celts are very closely related, and they kept up old family, clan and tribal ties all around the Bay of Biscay for thousands of years. That's why it's so very, very difficult to do genealogy among them - they all have the same names!

Even these Spanish guys have the same names, and so do the Irish, the Scots, the Welsh, the Manx and the Bretons.

Done with this. Time to take up my pipes and go out into the street and rouse the neighbors for some fireworks!

36 posted on 07/04/2002 6:32:44 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
From a Goon Show called "The Rent Collectors":

MAJOR BLOODNOK: Stop! What tribe are you?

NEDDIE SEAGOON: Tribe? I'm Welsh!

MAJOR BLOODNOK: That does it! FIRE!!!
37 posted on 07/04/2002 6:32:46 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: dr_who
If history is to be taught as PC would dictate. The 'White' cultures of the Welsh and the Anglo-Saxons, MUST have displaced a peaceful and loving 'people of color' who inhabited the British Isles (oppressor name) prior to their being invaded by Whites seeking gold.

The people of color and peace would sit around writing poetry, developing advanced mathematical formulas, natural healing remedies, and adherence to complicated lists of do's and dont's - all, sadly lost to history - and eating organic vegetables - grown by a non-profit cooperative.

When the Whites saw this peaceful and sustainable development loving people, they were enraged that all of the would-be profits were being composted along with the leftover corn husks and pea pods. This could not be left to stand, so the Whites invaded the islands, killed the people and started an arms industry. The peaceful, colorful peoples poetry was used as toilet paper after the White culture's drunken orgies and dead animal product feasts.

38 posted on 07/04/2002 6:36:06 PM PDT by keithtoo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
...and they use to land their flying saucers at Stonehenge...
39 posted on 07/04/2002 6:38:02 PM PDT by LRS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: dr_who
"Actually, according to Winston Churchill, the roundheaded people were driven out by the longheaded people who were into making nasty weapons out of steel instead of copper or something like that.

From: Winston Churchhill's four book series titled, A History Of English Speaking Peoples book one titled, The Birth Of Britain.

I have decided that I am a longheaded Brit.

40 posted on 07/04/2002 6:38:14 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: dr_who
That's my mother's family. lol
41 posted on 07/04/2002 6:38:15 PM PDT by constitutiongirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: muawiyah
Well, that's a fine condensation of some of the more recent Arthurian legends, at least.
43 posted on 07/04/2002 6:40:08 PM PDT by jimtorr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: blam; Fiddlstix
It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side

Reporting in from Left Coast chapter, Welsh Reparations Committee. I'm not sure who Offa's Dyke was, LOL! but I'm glad she/it protected us Welsh persons from contamination.

Fiddlstx, let's launch a claim to get out castle back! From there, we can take back London. Tomorrow, the world!

44 posted on 07/04/2002 6:40:30 PM PDT by PoisedWoman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: chilepepper
I am not a mere Celt, I am a Pict!

You beat me to it, I was about to ask when they were going to test the highland Scot

45 posted on 07/04/2002 6:41:24 PM PDT by McGavin999
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: blam
I Welshman once told me that the Irish are actually Welshman that could swim. Perhaps he wasn't joking after all.
46 posted on 07/04/2002 6:41:42 PM PDT by Fzob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
You know, Ioan Gruffudd (of Horatio Hornhooter fame) and Sean Connerrry are both kind of dark, not to mention Enya. So maybe a cause-celeb case could be made next time there's a vote on a separate parliament for whoever.
47 posted on 07/04/2002 6:42:58 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: blam
Wise choice, buster. But if you're Norman, I suggest you don't go stolling through dark stretches of woods.
48 posted on 07/04/2002 6:44:53 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
"If history is to be taught as PC would dictate. The 'White' cultures of the Welsh and the Anglo-Saxons, MUST have displaced a peaceful and loving 'people of color' who inhabited the British Isles (oppressor name) prior to their being invaded by Whites seeking gold."

LOL. Some do believe that the legend of the Irish Leprechauns derives from earlier inhabitants of Ireland, the San Bushmen. (I've read a lot about the Bushmen and their habits, mannerisms and etc. do seem to match those of the leprechauns, even pointed ears)

Also, who were the Fomorians?

49 posted on 07/04/2002 6:46:00 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: PoisedWoman
Offa? I thought he was a viking!
50 posted on 07/04/2002 6:47:29 PM PDT by dr_who
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 401-430 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson