What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?

The New York Times Magazine ^ | 07/07/2002 | GARY TAUBES

[Arioch7]

I know you are not directing this post directly towards me but since I am here and seem to come back no matter how hard I try to leave...

I would just like to mention that I do not subscribe to the ultra low level fat diet that some do.

Now since most of us are talking about personal anecdotes as well as giving our respective refferences, I would like to add some of my own.

I have never met a person on a low carb diet that stayed thin permanently kept it off. I know that you all have reasons and I can dig it. They stop the diet thus they gain the weight back. I still have NEVER seen one fit person in my life use a low carb diet.

My dad was diagnosed with type2 diabetes and did get his sugar level down to the point that he considered himself diabetes free.

You DO lose weight on the Atkins diet, I am not disputing this. Bodybuilders since the 1970's have used carb depletion to suck out the water and rip them up and lose all excess fat. Almost none of them stay on this diet year round as they find it difficult to train. Hey, thats the majority of them, I think they might be on to something since they do it all the time.

I roiginally lost all my weight on a low CALORIE diet as I did not know much about nutrition. I did that and exercised. After I was thin, I researched the subject and I already told you all the people I model myself after.

I have been in the military, into bodybuilding(As a hobby.) and a martial artist my whole adult life. All of these things I have done on my diet and all of the people who have excelled at these things think like me. The people that I know that is. See, its anecdotal.

I was fat until the age of 16 so I do not consider what I say is discriminatory. I know quite a few people that have found success with weight-watchers but not one with a low carb diet.

I have watched bodybuilders train while they are "carb-depleting" and it is not a pretty sight. None of them stays on that type of diet. I have also seen the off season stuff myself silly approach which is hig-EVERYTHING so carbs ARE included in the mix. This practice has stopped. Bottom line, they do what works for them.

NOw, you can say they are all on steroids and you might be right but I also know plenty of martial artists and military(At least I USED to know MIlitary men.) who think like I do.

Endurance athletes are another story as they (AS A GROUP.) consume much more carbs then both of us but they are among the thinnest athletes known. Again, people said "I know so and so," but I know quite a few and they ALL do what I post.

Now this is all anecdotal and you say it works for you so by all means do it. I mentioned that we cant really agree on this but I do thin that for certain people the Atkins diet might be helpful. I do believe that.

So, more power to you and I wish you luck.

[Nov3]

First after reading that post we are a lot closer than I thought on diet. I just think that I feel better, have more energy, no indigestion, no headaches, and maintain a very low body fat with absolutely no exercise other than the miniscule amount I get on my job and around the house. I have friends that literally exercise for hours a day, eat a so called healthy diet, and are still obese.

They were Hunter-Gatherers and do you think they were ALWAYS succesful on the hunt?

In the winter in the northern hemispere, they better be more than occasionally! Also hunter gatherers are a sedentary lot according to most anthropologists. The aboriginees in Australia actually get less exercise and are slimmer in the bush with a fat loaded diet than they are stuffing their faces with a modern diet in society.

I think we can agree that refined carbs and frankenfats are not health food like the AMA, Surgeon General, and a bunch of other doctors say!

[Dr.Deth]

Yes, but look at all other cultures and tell me what looks best?

The Swedish Bikini Team.

[Dr.Deth]

At least I stick to the frozen yogurt...

Question for the peanut gallery: which is the preferable frozen product nutritionally?

a) Frozen Yogurt
b) Ice Milk
c) Ice Cream
d) Custard
e) Dairy Queen Peanut Buster Parfait

Please provide explanation... I need some backup when I try to drag certain people to eat whatever the consensus is :)

[Dr.Deth]

Here's my photo - I will bet one hundred dollars that my body fat % (benifiting FR) is lower than yours.

You can't lose when such a high % of your body weight is your hair :)

[Dr.Deth]

This article defines precisely why government sh-theads should stay out of the lives of the citizenry.

And not just any old sh-thead either... none other than George F'n McGovern. If he said the sun rose in the east I'd set my screens to the west... and if he says low-fat is good for me then I'm running to the store for some Haagen-Daaz.

[Arioch7]

Well done. Certain groups did use high-fat diets(And were very succesful I might add.) but I think the evolution to the standard hunter-gatherer model and the agriculural society is well founded. It is the model of modern society after all and I think we are much healthier then any humankind in the past. In general.

I do agree that we have reached a health care crisis in the past three decades and I can say that we agree that the refined carbs and processed sugars are VERY bad news.

I was never "Anti-Fat," as others of my ilk were. I do believe in moderation. I think fat is valuable. We all disagree on the ratios that these macro-nutrients should be consumed. Thats cool.

As I said, if the Atkins diet works for you, then you all have no reason to listen to me. My diet works for me, that I can say (As you.) that it works fine, so we will just have to agree to disagree with the specifics.

However, we do share some common ground in acknowledging that fats(Some in my case.) and high-protein are not a bad thing. As a weight-lifter, I have never gone through a low protein diet in my life.

One thing I do not like is the fact that most Atkins people seem to be crusaders. I said that if I ever (After 14 years.) ever lost my health and saw Atkins people performing better then I was, I might give it a try. I have not heard the same.

Dana gave me a decent response about people being different in thier needs and I agree with that. I have tried to be nice, I dont know if everyone thought I was, they seemed offended. I was called many things for viewing my opinion about my system which works for a lot of people.

It was trash, garbage, illogical, and other such things. I am a practical guy, I do what works. If your system worked for me, I would do it. It does not so I don't. I did not call your system anything; I just said I did not agree with it.

I also believe some of you told me I would get sick and ill and although I may have posted studies that decried your diet, I did not offer my opinion much as to the long term health of your diet.

I myself am doing fine and have been for fourteen years. If you all are healthy then I dont see anything wrong with that, do what you do to make you healthy but don't insult me because I am long establishd on my diet and just because it does not meet your criteria, I have been on it long term and have been very healthy.

Hey, I guess we all do what we know works, right? So have at it! It works for you all so go nuts.

I have not eaten a candy bar in twelve years. I have not had cake in the same so I can sort of emphasize with you guys and girls.

Just on a vanity note, I limited my diet from all salt and it was not pretty, salt is a neccesary electolyte and it is consumed way to much but after a couple weeks with none, I could not function.

Again, good luck all and we obviously can not agree, but I must say I am with the modernation posters.

Thats all. :D

[Dr.Deth]

Michelob Ultra has 2.9 carbs in 12 ounces and has been made and marketed specifically for the growing low carb market.

Someone finally listened... this is the diet I've been advocating for years: replacing empty carbohydrate calories with entertaining alcohol calories.

#1 staple: Gin & Diet Tonic, made with Bombay Sapphire. A diet you'll never tire of ;)

[Arioch7]

Frozen Yougurt.

It has WAY to much sugar but seeing ads how I eat it maybe twice a month it does not worry me.

I dont eat anything else the general poulation does. No desserts ever for me so I figure I can eat two of these a month. In reality, I eat about six per year.

I admit it is bad but it does have protein and calcium. That much is true, right?

[Arioch7]

LOL! I hate to admit it but entertainment carbs ARE KEY!!! Perhaps the diet would benefit me as I could use less of these "Entertainment" carbs indeed.

[Dana113]

Arioch, the problem with your premise is that A) it is anecdotal and my own anecdotal experience can cancel yours out [I posted threads from professional body builders and Nutrition directors of national gyms who agree with me] and B) you are presuming that Atkins dieters should be body builders, which is a fallacy and C) you are placing the highly QUESTIONABLE knowledge of body builders over that of real experts, such as cardiologists, scientists, endocrinologists at some of the nations most prestigious universities and teaching hospitals.

Most Atkins dieters were formerly heavy to obese and there is no reason to think that they would become body builders so that is a bogus standard that you have set yourself. The success of a diet is not contingent upon how many people become body builders. I would also venture to guess that not many body builders have EVER BEEN OBESE in the first place so they would have no reason to try Atkins because they HAVE NO NEED to diet. So maybe you should ask yourself just how many of your body builder friends were OBESE in the past and in a position to NEED a diet?

Even so, we come back to my initial point that you keep ignoring. Body builders and professional athletes are NOT cardiologists, scientists, researchers, endocrinologists and have conducted NO RESEARCH on thier own. They are certainly much less qualified than that crowd. It defies logic to ask us to trust the judgement of some uneducated musclebound knucklehead - just because he is "fit" - over an array of some of the nation's most prestigious doctors, scientists, experts at some of the nations' top universities. Now c'mon, that just makes no sense and makes me think that you are grasping to support an insupportable view.

Further, I have produced several studies, on this very thread, that show that more dieters stick to low carb than low fat. The fact is that there are no long term studies that show success on a low fat diet. Most studies fail because the participants drop out at double the rate of the higher fat participants.

[FormerLurker]

I eat everything that's SUPPOSE to be "unhealthy", from cheeseburgers swimming in fat, fatty ribs, fatty steak, REAL butter, REAL eggs, REAL milk (not the low-fat junk, which taste like chaulk to me). The more fat, the better. Oh yeah, I smoke like a chimney as well.<

I'm reasonably muscular, trim, and am in pretty good health.

I've climbed mountains with a heavy pack without working out for years, leaving those who are on the low-fat/no-fat diets in the dust (and they were much younger than me..). Also, I was smoking cigarettes on the way up...

I agree, almost ALL of the "healthy" suggestions coming from do-gooders are pure bunk.

[Washington-Husky]

I was surprised to learn that hard liquor has no carbohydrate content at all: (look under 'gin' for example...)

http://www.atkinsfriends.com/carbcounter/bev.shtml

[Dr.Deth]

I'm not sure about Frozen Yogurt. I mean, I've enjoyed the Cherry Garcia as much as the next guy but it's like those non-fat salad dressings - they're just about pure carb, and high-glycemic-index carbs at that. I've switched over to olive oil vinaigrettes exclusively (greek, caesar, etc), I don't skimp on the sauce, and I actually enjoy eating the veggies and it helps keep me from those hunger pangs...

My gut (no pun intended) feeling is that Ice Cream or Custard would mitigate the sugar spike, thanks to the accompanying fat.

Personally, my diet is kind of inbetween: 1/2 glass of a hi-carb drink in the morning before lifting with protein & milk after, anything at all for lunch (primarily beef, chicken, chick-fil-a, sushi, etc), and rotate between protein shakes/zone bars/veggies/nuts/fruits/lunchmeat/jerky/booze in the evenings, depending on the craving. Avoid sugar, candy bars, sugared soft drinks, and pound down a couple of liters of water a day. I haven't even chopped out bread or PBJ's yet, but more often lately I'll just go to the peanut butter jar.

Where I gain weight is when I get together with family, or eat out too often - lots of carbs. But then I just get back into my routine and back to where I need to be. It doesn't feel like a diet, so to me it ain't. And if it ain't, there's no wagon to fall off.

P.S. Fudge Graham Zone Bars are so damn good they should be illegal. It takes willpower to stop at one!

[Dr.Deth]

I was surprised to learn that hard liquor has no carbohydrate content at all:

Me too. But it wasn't too hard to wean me from beer to bourbon ;)

Did you know that non-diet Tonic Water has like 100 calories of sugar per glass? It's the mixers that get you...

[Washington-Husky]

I agree wholeheartedly, Dana. For many people who are overweight, it is not "fun" being overweight, as there are physical side effects that can be hell to cope with.

I am an avid walker and skier and cyclist... I am only moderately overweight, and believe me, an extra twenty pounds is very noticeable to your feet, knees, legs, etc. (and painful, too) when you're on the slopes, on the seat of a bike, or just taking a two-mile beach walk in the sand.

I'm sticking with my own variation of the Atkins diet - which is a combination of the Atkins Diet and the Paleo or NeanderThin diet (for me, that means basically beef or game meat, and green vegetables and some berries, and keeping up with as much exercise as I can handle.) I just started, I have a few pounds/inches yet to lose... but I can honestly say I feel great. I have no hunger problems and no food cravings.

[Arioch7]

You are correct and I noted it. I am reading the Gary Tauber article on Frontpage. com right now.

It is compelling. I have never trained with very obese people, although I was one myself.

My diet has ALWAYS worked, until I see people that follow it fail, I can not be swayed. I guess this is bias but if it works... ?

I have only had three people take my advice and they did not fail.

You are right on the experts yet when I produced some you said they were "Biased," and you cant believe what you read. So, should I post studies again? I have read many of the studies you have posted and some are indeed compelling.

HAve you read mine?

I have always tried to be lean and have never considered bodybuilding (Mainly because I have a lame chest as far as that goes.), as I considered the carb depleting unhealthy during contest time.

I can understand why you are more vigilant in promoting your diet. Most of us do not agree with you and it works so you are upset.

My methods work for me and everone I have had the honor to work with. I do not consider them invalid.

As I said, you like your system, I like mine. I would call y system moderate fat intake so as I said to nov3, I dont think we are in disagreement, I have also said that form follows function and different athletes(As well as people!) need different things.

I dont eat or train like an endurance athlete and I dont eat or train like a bodybuilder. I try for strength and stamina in the martial arts.

I never run over three miles, but I run. I agree that there are differences and hey; I am speaking of my own experience.

Dont you know that there are plenty of studies that REFUTE your claims, just as yours refute mine?

I will do what has worked for me and you will use what works for me. What I tell to Atkins people in person is that I have been fit for fourteen years and they are not yet fit so should not pre-judge.

You have experience that differs, so be it. I have NEVER met an Atkins practioner that I considered healthy. Sorry, I did not and if YOU have then that is anecdotal.

I admit that maybe certain people benefit from it but not me or the people I train with. Again, good for you if it works.

I have never seen it work in practice. I dont mind being proven wrong.

[Arioch7]

I did not mean it to sound so bitchy. Sorry.

[Washington-Husky]

Further, I have produced several studies, on this very thread, that show that more dieters stick to low carb than low fat.

I've noticed that if I have a moderate serving of beef or game meat (not real lean, but not real fatty either), plus a portion of lightly steamed vegetables such as broccoli or cabbage, at about 4:30 in the afternoon, I feel entirely satiated for the rest of the evening and then I can get on with other things instead of snacking on junk food until the late hours (which is where I'm sure most of my weight gain has been coming from...).

It works for me, and so far I have no temptation whatsoever to not stick with this routine.

[Washington-Husky]

White sugar = white death