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What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?
The New York Times Magazine ^ | 07/07/2002 | GARY TAUBES

Posted on 07/05/2002 5:34:43 PM PDT by Pokey78

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To: Skip Ripley
You may not see many athletes following Atkins by name, but most of the aforementioned bodybuilding community follow a diet that's structured (High protein and fat, lo carb,) along the same lines.

I defy you to find any famous bodybuider who follows anything close to the Atkins Diet. Their diets are strictly regimented - like myself, they believe that protein, and not fat/carbs are paramount. Atkins is for the (scrawny) birds...

101 posted on 07/05/2002 7:52:12 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Dana113
I wouldn't know because I don't follow sports. Sorry.

Well I do, and the answer is close to zero. How can that be?

102 posted on 07/05/2002 7:53:19 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Arioch7
No problem, I can get a little...edgy...myself.

Re the diets followed by IFBB pros, they can get away with more dietary transgressions because of the gear and ancillary drugs.

Have you seen those magazine ads with Lee Priest? The guy looked as big around as he is tall. 16 weeks later he's ripped with 3% bodyfat? I know the copy says that he was fat for his standards, but i've seen pictures of him in prior years and he looked that fat then too. He must've had a lot of pharmaceutical help to get from A to B. I'd love to see what his intake of clen, T3and GH was running up to that show.

In short, I'm not sure we should point to the IFBB pros as dietary models for anyone...

103 posted on 07/05/2002 7:55:51 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: Dana113
Damn! I guess I lost my finger for nothing. :D

No problem, as I said; I tend to sound like a jerk but I dont mean to.

If you are happy, thats cool with me. The bottom line is that it is all about the will of the person involved. I sound all preachy but the million beers I drank tonight are not helpful to training and they are the wrong kind of carbs. :D

I will be back tommorow. Good night.

104 posted on 07/05/2002 7:57:33 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: Senator Pardek
Sorry, but fats are important to bodybuilders. Carbs are less important (particulalry to the real bodybuilders, those who do so naturally)

If I can get motivated, I'll poke around for specific examples to humor you...

105 posted on 07/05/2002 7:59:17 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: Arioch7
I wonder if that person is aware of the physiological term "Ketosis".

RTFA

106 posted on 07/05/2002 7:59:43 PM PDT by WriteOn
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To: Senator Pardek
You haven't a clue. I've been on EVERY SINGLE DIET you can imagine, EVERY SINGLE EXERCISE program you can imagine. I have been obese for 50 YEARS

What worked?

ATKINS WORKED. Stop being a sheep a wake up. The article is SPOT ON.

Your cognitive dissonance has kicked in...

107 posted on 07/05/2002 8:02:39 PM PDT by chilepepper
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To: ikka
I must have had too much veggies because I barely lost any weight - however, I felt wonderful and had a lot of energy.

My wife had the same problem -- too many veggies. When she started accurately counting her carbs with a chart and a digital scale, and adjusted her carb and calorie intake, the weight started to come off.

Note that Adkins does NOT recommend a veggie-free diet.

108 posted on 07/05/2002 8:03:36 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Senator Pardek
Right, but that's not Atkins. They do it to fool their bodies, just like they change their lifting routines. Effective, perhaps - but not Atkins.

Ummmm, I would say that if they take it out of the Atkins book, its Atkins.

Ketosis (which Atkins diet seems to be) is recommended in some circumstances for various reasons. I know of one man (and he might be a freeper) that used the usual low fat diet and got to a point where he just could not lose any more body fat. Atkins diet was his cure. He's a powerlifter himself, but as a hobby, not by profession.

In the bodybuilding circle, ketosis dieting is often cycled utilizing various patterns such as 5 days on, 2 days off.

I fear that we may begin to split hairs here. I'm only recommending keeping an open mind WRT diet. I don't buy everything that the WHO recommends, that's all.

109 posted on 07/05/2002 8:03:59 PM PDT by meyer
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To: chilepepper
I've been on EVERY SINGLE DIET you can imagine, EVERY SINGLE EXERCISE program you can imagine.

Did you stick with those programs for 5 years without cheating?

110 posted on 07/05/2002 8:04:42 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: meyer
Thanks. I havn't benched that much for a year or so, but my legs are still there.

I know what you mean by the age thing. I turned 40 this past year and it is getting hard to train hard and stay injury free. I did just have surgery to address my sleep apnea (my dad and 3 of my 4 brothers have/had it as well) In the past month or so I have noticed that my body is beginning to respond like it used to to weight training. Sleep can be such a wonderful training aid!

Hang in there. Somebody has to show yup all these 20-something, pasty, sony-playing girly boy's that society is churning out!

111 posted on 07/05/2002 8:05:57 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: meyer
Exactly. It's a hardcore strategy - not to be used by the average shlub who wants to pare down his beer belly.
112 posted on 07/05/2002 8:06:44 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Senator Pardek
One point of the article, as I read it, was that emphasizing low fat/hi carb diets has worsened our physical condition.

Atkins does highly recomend exercise as part of his diet, and a lot of what he says does make sense from a physiological point of view.

113 posted on 07/05/2002 8:08:04 PM PDT by FreeperinRATcage
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To: Senator Pardek
And it is only LOW FAT [the one *YOU* are suggesting], LOW CALORIE, LOW PROTEIN diets that cause muscle loss.

YOU RESONDED: LOL - again, someone putting words in my mouth (hope they're low-fat...)

Here is what you said [twice]"20% is fine, because the person who weight trains and excercises takes in a lot of calories to begin with."

Again, 20% is not fine for the reasons I gave - it causes nutritional deficiencies and muscle loss. A person cannot function properly on 20%.

Sunday July 30 12:37 PM EDT High-fat Diet Better for Female Athletes By Janice Billingsley HealthSCOUT Reporter

SUNDAY, July 30 (HealthSCOUT) -- Forget weight watching. A new study shows that a high-fat diet can help female athletes literally go that extra mile.

Nine women soccer players at the State University of New York (SUNY) at Buffalo went more than one mile farther before reaching exhaustion on a diet of 35 percent fat, says study author, Peter J. Horvath.

"That is really a striking difference," says Horvath, an associate professor at SUNY at Buffalo's School of Health Related Professions.

Women in the study went on three different diets during the second half of three menstrual periods. One month, three women were on a normal diet; another three ate a normal diet plus 415 calories of oil-roasted peanuts a day, and the remainder ate the normal diet plus an equal amount of extra calories from carbohydrate-rich energy bars. Each group switched the following month so that after three months, all had been tested on each of diet.

Each diet was tested for seven days during the luteal phase (the second half) of the menstrual cycle, when a woman's ability to metabolize fat is the greatest, Horvath says.

The peanut diet included 35 percent of calories from fat, compared with 24 percent on the energy-bar diet. The normal diet had 27 percent fat.

The energy-bar diet contained 63 percent carbohydrates, compared to 51 percent on the peanut diet. Protein and calorie intake and caloric expenditure were essentially the same in all three diets.

The endurance tests mimicked soccer play using three running methods: constant-speed, running at different rates on a treadmill and forward running with a side-step maneuver performed on a force plate. The athletes were tested until exhaustion on the seventh day of each diet.

The results showed that team members traveled 11.2 kilometers on the high-fat diet, 10 kilometers on the normal diet and 9.7 kilometers on the high-carbohydrate diet. Muscle performance, measured by the force plate, remained the same.

Columbia University's women's soccer coach Kevin McCarthy says the study's findings, originally presented at an annual meeting of the Federation of American Societies of Experimental Biology, could be helpful.

"Outside of planning a lot of meals during the season, we stick to having [our players] eat well and get the proper mix of carbohydrates and fats. [This information] isn't dangerous or a fad. It's an easy thing to pass along to players," McCarthy says.

Horvath says a high-fat diet seems to be more of a boost to women than to men, based on previous studies he has done with male athletes.

"Men responded to calories, but women responded to fat," he says.

As a result of his findings, he says, "Any research that had been done on men has to be redone for females. Dietary recommendations for women athletes should be different from men's."

"An athletically fit woman's fat intake in her diet should be about 35 percent," says St. Louis dietician and personal trainer Ellie Zografakis. But she says there is no harm in higher fat intake for athletes because endurance exercise is a very efficient use of fat.

"With a diet of 35 percent fat fuel, [the athletes] would have more energy, feel more powerful," she says. Zografakis says, in fact, most of her clients don't get enough fat; only 10 to 20 percent of their calories come from fat, which she says is too low.

"Fat is taboo for all women. They are not willing to increase their fat intake," she says.

Instead, she says many women have a high carbohydrate intake -- as much as 80 percent of their diet -- which can cause bloating along with a lack of energy. Tufts University rates a number of commercial sites that offer nutrition advice for athletes.

114 posted on 07/05/2002 8:08:08 PM PDT by Dana113
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To: Arioch7
1 Why are endurance athletes very skinny when they carbo-load all the time?

Perhaps because they burn about 6000 calories per day?

2 Why are oriental cultures so thin until they eat an American "Atkins" diet?

The "American" diet is not synonomous with the "Atkins" diet. One is Ketogenic, the other is not.

115 posted on 07/05/2002 8:08:59 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Dana113
You are dragging me back into this! ;)

Ok, Protein is for building muscle. Why would I drink a protein drink to give me energy? The Glycemic window I spoke about is REAL. Carbs give you energy, that is thier function. Protein is a poor substitue for energy, read my so called last post about endurance athletes.

Every muscle has a store of energy. I can not remember the scientific terms but I think it is ATP? That is gained by CARBS> There are no two ways around it. Carbs supply that energy.

The problem is that you all think that I am demonizing protein and fat. Not true, I LOVE protein. The reality is that YOU ALL ARE DEMONIZING CARBOHYDRATES.

There are three macro-nutrients(Again... *Sigh*), they EACH have thier purposes. I would not cut ANY of the three from my diet. The hatred of carbs is ludicrous. Read my last post and HONESTLY give me an answer, you can not.

Again, I must go elsewher but I will check back but READ the stuff I have written because the crap attributed to me is worthy of a liberal forum... JUst kidding! Not realy, but I meant it in good fun.

ALL MACRO NUTRIENTS ARE NECCESARY!!!! Dig it?

116 posted on 07/05/2002 8:09:47 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: Senator Pardek
Of course not! that is the whole point of the article. read it again! the other diets cause hunger and obesity. why do you think there is an epidemic?

Look at how obese some of the poor blacks in the ghetto are becoming - they eat a diet of almost PURE CARBOHYDRATES...

117 posted on 07/05/2002 8:10:07 PM PDT by chilepepper
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To: Senator Pardek
You are so right. I eat carbs at every meal (and a cookie, or a piece of chocolate, everyday); I tend to put on weight easily (I take it off easily too though), but the one thing I do religiously is exercise, four days a week I do some sort of aerobic exercise, and two days a week I strength train. And that, as you so wisely stated Senator, is the reason I'm not fat.

I'd much rather sweat it out for an hour and a half everyday, than eliminate my italian bread, my pizza, or my pasta portofino.

118 posted on 07/05/2002 8:10:57 PM PDT by Aedammair
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To: meyer
What the hell is a Big Mac?
119 posted on 07/05/2002 8:13:17 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: Senator Pardek
Ok, I've heard you discuss what you don't believe in from a dietary standpoint. What DO you believe in specifically. You stated 20% fat and that is too low for me. I'm more of a 30% fat, 50%-60% protien, 10-20% clean carb guy. I'd rather sacrifice carbs for protien, since my body can make it's own glucose if it has to...

I must stress that the fats I try to include are CLEAN. I don't eat bacon, sausage, fatty red meat or pork. I don't use margarine or like products.. I eat fatty fish, Flax oil in my protien shakes and some nuts.

120 posted on 07/05/2002 8:13:47 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: Arioch7
I have to disagree with you.

I to have used high protien/low carb diet with success. Here is what this type of diet does for me, besides the benefits of keeping cholesterole levels exceptable

it lowers the 'gas level' that i get from chips and cheese......and I know it's NOT the cheese since this WOE includes eating cheese, plus any time I slip and start eating them again the 'problem' comes back.

it also has reduced to zero the, um once a month cravings that would have me looking for something to eat, trying everything, but nothing would satisfy. (course a male probably wouldn't understand this, lol)

it also gives me the ablity to not think about chocolate continually. love that stuff, as long as I eat a 'controlled' carb diet the urge to eat choc and other goodies just fades away. for which I can say Thank God.

there are other pluses to but these are the biggest.

121 posted on 07/05/2002 8:14:40 PM PDT by tickles
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To: Dana113
"Men responded to calories, but women responded to fat," he says.

I was being politically incorrect when I referred to pro athletes - I meant males, but I stand by what I say. No male pro athlete in his right mind would try the Atkins Diet (unless it was Mo Vaughn).

122 posted on 07/05/2002 8:15:31 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Dana113
Can you explain one thing about the concept of the Atkins diet?

I agree that it works-but if high-carb diets produce fat people why it is that culture that have a high carb diet have so few fat people? For example Vietnam, China etc?

IS IT THE LACK OF REFINED CARBS? Do these countries use unrefined carbs? What is the difference between refined and unrefined carbs?

Thanks

George

123 posted on 07/05/2002 8:15:42 PM PDT by conservativeprof
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To: Senator Pardek
Well I do, and the answer is close to zero. How can that be?

No, you don't know that, you are guessing as you have with everything else. Perhaps you could tell us how many are on your unhealthy 20% fat Ornish diet?

Are you an athlete, Pardek? Because at age 45, after being on Atkins for 3.5 years, I have the body fat of female athlete at 19.6%. I am a weight trainer. I would put my stats up against yours any day of the week. What is your body fat %?

124 posted on 07/05/2002 8:17:56 PM PDT by Dana113
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To: Skip Ripley
I'm more of a 30% fat, 50%-60% protien, 10-20% clean carb guy

If more people followed that, we'd have healthier people. My "20% figure" was the minimum. I'm anti-fat - not pro-carb.

125 posted on 07/05/2002 8:18:09 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Senator Pardek
How many professional athletes discuss their diets?

I think that the more important question should be, How many people have successful and safe weight loss with the diet. I don't see too many athletes that need a weight loss diet so I have to wonder why you ask that question.

I know that the diet contradicts conventional thinking but I think that you ought to talk to a couple of people that have actually used it.

Look, I'm not advocating this as a cure all. As you and many others have pointed out, exercise plays a huge role in a person's condition. Perhaps bigger than diet in many of us. I'm just trying to answer what appears to be "Atkins bashing" with no basis to do so.

126 posted on 07/05/2002 8:19:57 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Dana113
I agree with the 35% level.

You can only process about 25 grams of protein every meal. If you are larger you can process more.

I get some of my info from Dr. Squat... Fred Hatfield who is the man!

I might stress that in ALL of my posts that form follows function and different athletes follow different diets.

Yes, I am biased; I listen to the greatest athletes in martial arts, power lifting, and extreme sports.

I listen to superiority and science. I do not know what the proper level is for women. I do think 35% is a good indicator.

127 posted on 07/05/2002 8:21:06 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: Arioch7
Hey, we agree, all macronutients are necessary!

I prefer my carbs after I work out since recovery is best aided by getting some protien and carbs right after training.

I don't hate carbs, they hate me. I feel much better and have more enrgy when I'm getting more protien and fat than carbs

128 posted on 07/05/2002 8:21:25 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: Skip Ripley
In short, I'm not sure we should point to the IFBB pros as dietary models for anyone...

I had to grin when I read that. :^)

129 posted on 07/05/2002 8:21:36 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Dana113
I would put my stats up against yours any day of the week. What is your body fat %?

Ooooh, hostile - I like that!

But the reality is, male pro athletes shun, as a whole, the Atkins Diet. Reality is a pisser!

130 posted on 07/05/2002 8:22:31 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Senator Pardek
OK. We probably agree more than disagree. My body functions better (ok my brain says my body functions better) on more fat then carbs.
131 posted on 07/05/2002 8:23:06 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: tickles
LOL! As I said, if you like it, I encourage you to do it. I can not understand it.

I can say that I never eat chips or cheese or ANY thing that has empty calories. I dont eat cand bars, processed foods, or anything of that nature.

Read my posts though. Carbs fuel the brain, they fuel your energy.

132 posted on 07/05/2002 8:24:29 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: Senator Pardek
I've been on EVERY SINGLE DIET you can imagine, EVERY SINGLE EXERCISE program you can imagine. Pardek wrote: Did you stick with those programs for 5 years without cheating?

Most people CANNOT stick with low fact/low calorie diets, because A} they don't work and B} they are deprivation diets that make people sick or hungry. That's why there are no long term studies that show net losses on low fat - most show net gains because the participants drop out.

133 posted on 07/05/2002 8:24:37 PM PDT by Dana113
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To: Pokey78
Bump for when I get thrown in prison and have time to read this.
134 posted on 07/05/2002 8:25:32 PM PDT by Skooz
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To: conservativeprof
I have already posted that refined crap ruins people. I am glad you noticed,

All of those countries are almost UNIVERSALLY thin. Of course, that is reality and it seems that thier reality can not translate into western peoples.

135 posted on 07/05/2002 8:27:01 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: Dana113
Most people CANNOT stick with low fact/low calorie diets, because A} they don't work and B} they are deprivation diets that make people sick or hungry. That's why there are no long term studies that show net losses on low fat - most show net gains because the participants drop out.

AAAAHHH I can't take it! Have you people been reading my posts? Weight loss is tied to activity, and not diet change! The diet will change when the activity increases!

136 posted on 07/05/2002 8:28:46 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: Pokey78
It is very significant that the Puritans (where food and smoking are concerned) at the New York Times have published this article. I have done extensive research on the subject of weight loss and have tried many different types of diets myself. For years I have been telling my family and friends that refined carboydrates, particularly nonfat refined carbos, are the real cause of obesity. You would think I had been proclaiming nonsense about space aliens arriving on Planet Earth! Atkins has been right for thirty years and the medical establishment has been wrong (or lying). Most of these so-called experts advise their obese patients to exercise and eat nonfat pretzels. Yeah, right, that'll really work. Atkins is right and the fact that The New York Times is obliquely acknowledging this means that it is now too obvious to deny any longer that Atkins -- gasp -- was right all along.
137 posted on 07/05/2002 8:30:38 PM PDT by utahagen
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To: Arioch7
The problem is that you all think that I am demonizing protein and fat. Not true, I LOVE protein. The reality is that YOU ALL ARE DEMONIZING CARBOHYDRATES.

No, we are not. You are shrieking again, Arioch. You are wrong, noone here is demonizing carbs. I demonize REFINED carbs. I don't even demonize starchy, high glycemic carbs like potatoes, however, I do not eat them because they play hell on my blood sugar and make me feel like hell. I probably eat more vegetables and nuts than any person I know. When my friends are gorging down on beer and pizza, I am eating pizza TOPPINGS and a side salad with a Diet Pepsi. I never see them eat vegetables at lunch.

I eat at least one salad a day and several cups of veggies and nuts. The Atkins diet has much more vegetables on it than the average American diet. Even in the strictest phase, it is required to have 2 salads and 2 cups of vegetables.

I can't believe I am being lectured on diet by people who eat junk food!

138 posted on 07/05/2002 8:32:44 PM PDT by Dana113
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To: Senator Pardek
No no no no..

Weight loss and body compositon changes are as much a function of diet as exercise. Diet doesn't change because you start exercising. What happens, the diet fairy decides you've run long enough so she taps you on the shoulder and makes you puke if you even look at Fudgie the Whale cake or a Cookiepuss?

Proper diet fules the activity that burns stored fat and builds muscles. You cannot have one without the other

139 posted on 07/05/2002 8:34:27 PM PDT by Skip Ripley
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To: Pokey78
A guy I work with lost a LOT of weight........and rapidly. I asked him about it, and he said that he cut out carbs; breads, etc. That was it; that was all. I couldn't believe it; the difference was THAT significant.
140 posted on 07/05/2002 8:35:31 PM PDT by RightOnline
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To: Dana113
I agree that the weirdest thing about these dieting debates is how ANGRY the low carb people get at the mention of Atkins. Lowcarb eating has become some kind of religion to some people and I find this bizarre. If they want to follow low-fat diets, mazel tov. But why are they so threatened when others have more success with high protein diets?
141 posted on 07/05/2002 8:35:44 PM PDT by utahagen
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To: Dana113
The Atkins diet has much more vegetables on it than the average American diet.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one! The anti-Atkins say that it's nothing but bacon smothered in cream cheese -- nothing could be further from the truth. If people don't like it, then fine, but it works very well long-term for very many people.

142 posted on 07/05/2002 8:37:05 PM PDT by DallasMike
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To: Dana113
Most people CANNOT stick with low fact/low calorie diets, because A} they don't work and B} they are deprivation diets that make people sick or hungry. That's why there are no long term studies that show net losses on low fat - most show net gains because the participants drop out.

This makes me think of one of the reasons that I think people turn to alternative diets in the first place; the ultra-low calorie approach is just wrong. I've heard of doctors recommending 1200 calorie-per-day diets to obese people. This is woefully inadequate. It creates the yo-yo syndrome where people gyrate between ultra-diet and ultra-eat. In the long run, their weight chart looks like the stock market zigging and zagging but generally going in an upward trend over time.

You can't hurry weight loss (and you can't hurry love, you'll just have to wait). 1-2 pounds per week is perhaps about as much as one should try to lose.

143 posted on 07/05/2002 8:38:51 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Senator Pardek
Note that the poster below you rails against refined crap. We have done that from the get go yet somehow, we have been labeled as for being FOR processed crap because we recognize the value of carbohydrates.

Thats the all or nothing argument that libs are famous for. I NEVER siad that fat and protein were bad but I grow weary of arguing, do what you want people. I just wish they would use logic.

I hate to say it but the Atkins advocates seem like a cult. I can not debate with a cult. Good night.

I suppose we will stick with our way and they will stick with thier way and let the victors prevail... it will be us!! :D LOL!

144 posted on 07/05/2002 8:41:00 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: conservativeprof
IS IT THE LACK OF REFINED CARBS? Do these countries use unrefined carbs? What is the difference between refined and unrefined carbs?

Yes, that is exactly the problem. They do not have diets loaded with processed sugar and flour products like we do here. Refined carbs are made from processed flour and sugar and create an insulin response in the body that prevents fat burning. The good carbs are vegetables, fruits, nuts, beans and legumes.

Here is a pretty good explanation written by a cardiologist who once worked for Atkins: http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=377377&nav=2CSQ5wO13Uqa

145 posted on 07/05/2002 8:41:38 PM PDT by Dana113
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To: Dana113
http://www.wlbt.com/Global/sto ry.asp?S=377377&nav=2CSQ5w O13Uqa


146 posted on 07/05/2002 8:42:42 PM PDT by meyer
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To: meyer
I hope that the auto-html works.

147 posted on 07/05/2002 8:43:09 PM PDT by meyer
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To: Dana113
I dont shreik and I eat very healthy.

I said NOTHING about your personal diet and as a matter of fact, you know NOTHING of my diet so you are off base.

How do you know if I eat junk food? Which I have never eaten since I was seventeen.

148 posted on 07/05/2002 8:44:45 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: utahagen
I agree that the weirdest thing about these dieting debates is how ANGRY the low carb people get at the mention of Atkins. Lowcarb eating has become some kind of religion to some people and I find this bizarre. If they want to follow low-fat diets, mazel tov. But why are they so threatened when others have more success with high protein diets?

It is a mystery to me, but to my astonishment I often encounter the same type of hostility about the diet that I have here tonight. People are ANGRY that there is a diet that directly contradicts what they have been taught. And they are often low fat fanatics, who, presented with the facts, just get angrier and hostile. The bottom line is that there are many diets out there and low fat is not the be-all and end-all that folks claim.

149 posted on 07/05/2002 8:44:46 PM PDT by Dana113
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To: Arioch7
For the record, I don't really follow any diet. Yeah, I make sure to eat the proper amount of fruits and veggies (more or less) and I lean towards whole-grain products. But, I also eat bacon, sausage, and all those other fatty products at times. In moderation, of course.

And I exercise. 3-4 aerobic/semi-aerobic workouts per week, and 2-3 strength workouts per week. Depends on the work schedule and all, but I keep myself physical. Its necessary.

150 posted on 07/05/2002 8:45:54 PM PDT by meyer
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