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One of Apostles was a woman, Church is told
The Times (UK) ^ | July 06, 2002 | Our Religion Correspondent

Posted on 07/05/2002 7:21:05 PM PDT by aculeus

EVIDENCE that one of the Apostles of Jesus was a woman is being examined by leaders of the Church of England, who are debating whether women should be ordained bishops.

Joanna, who was close to Jesus during His ministry, changed her name to Junia and was recognised by St Paul as an Apostle, research to be published later this year found. Her role was ignored for centuries because medieval scholars altered the name to Junias to make it masculine.

Joanna, who was with Mary Magdalen when the empty tomb was discovered and taken as proof of the Resurrection, changed her Hebrew name to a Latin name to fit in with the Romanised culture of Tiberias, where she lived, Richard Bauckham, Professor of New Testament Studies at St Andrews University, says.

As Junia, she was described by St Paul in a letter to the Romans as “prominent among the Apostles”. She was a wealthy woman from King Herod’s court who turned to Jesus after seeing Him heal a friend’s wife, he says.

The defection of the powerful courtier to the new Christian movement was seen as even more scandalous because she was married to Chuza, one of Herod’s most influential stewards. Joanna converted her husband, changed the way she dressed and used her own money to support the mission.

Although it has been previously suggested in theological circles that the Apostle Junia was a female, she has never previously been linked to Joanna and the Herodian upper class of Tiberias.

The discovery suggests that not only was society far less patriarchal than previous research has shown, but that women such as Joanna may have used their wealth and standing in society to convert others to their cause. Joanna and Chuza were among the large numbers of disciples who gathered when Jesus appeared to rise from the dead. She witnessed the Crucifixion and Chuza later changed his name to Andronicus, Professor Bauckham says.

Professor Bauckham’s paper, Junia the Apostle, will be discussed during the meeting of the General Synod. Its presentation to a bishops’ working party on the theology of women in the episcopate will challenge the perception of the apostles that has dominated the Church since AD400.

Although Jerome, regarded as the most important religious scholar of that time, considered Junia to be a woman, subsequent translations in the Middle Ages and the King James Bible changed her name to the male Junias.

Robert Bartlett, Professor of Medieval History at St Andrews University, said: “If a name like Junia was a little ambiguous, the medieval scribes were quite likely to make mistakes. Certainly the medieval Church was male-dominated and wanted it to stay that way, but whether someone was cooking the books to make it appear that the Apostles were all men is not yet certain.” Medieval scribes were known for their inaccuracies, he said.

The assumption that the leading Apostles were all men has been one of the most unassailable arguments against the ordination of women bishops.

If the claim that Joanna and Junia were the same person, and that Junia was a woman and an Apostle is accepted, the argument for women bishops will have been all but won.

The “greatest surprise”, Professor Bauckham said, was that St Paul knew one of them “and considered her an outstanding Apostle”. Her high status would have conferred social legitimacy on the new religious movement.

After witnessing the Resurrection she left for Rome with her husband. Both were imprisoned for their beliefs and never heard of again.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: apostle; catholiclist; christianlist; religion
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Discuss among yourselves.
1 posted on 07/05/2002 7:21:05 PM PDT by aculeus
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To: aculeus
I am too verklempt.
2 posted on 07/05/2002 7:22:40 PM PDT by Slyfox
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To: aculeus
"It's too late to change now."
                         --The Vatican
3 posted on 07/05/2002 7:26:22 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: aculeus
This smells an awful lot like the Anglicans trying to justify their priestesses after the fact.
4 posted on 07/05/2002 7:29:19 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: aculeus
However it plays out, you would never find Islam working to elevate the role of women in the church.
5 posted on 07/05/2002 7:30:02 PM PDT by Neever
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To: aculeus
As Junia, she was described by St Paul in a letter to the Romans as “prominent among the Apostles”.

Access Hollywood described Will Smith as "prominent among the NBA All Stars" - doesn't mean that Will Smith is a basketball player. I am not sold on this theory, although it may be true.
6 posted on 07/05/2002 7:35:52 PM PDT by adakotab
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To: Siobhan; patent; american colleen
FYI BUMP
7 posted on 07/05/2002 7:35:53 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: B Knotts; Brad's Gramma; SpookBrat; Khepera
**This smells an awful lot like the Anglicans trying to justify their priestesses after the fact.**

Yep.

8 posted on 07/05/2002 7:37:07 PM PDT by homeschool mama
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: aculeus
I think the justification for a celibate priesthood is greater than the justification for an all male priesthood. There are no physical limitations that can keep women from a priestly vocation.
10 posted on 07/05/2002 7:39:51 PM PDT by tellw
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To: aculeus
Looks to me like someone with an ecclesiastical political agenda in search of scriptural justification to back it up.

I don't buy it.

11 posted on 07/05/2002 7:41:37 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: aculeus
Hmm, Another re-write of history by feminists?
12 posted on 07/05/2002 7:42:14 PM PDT by poet
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To: aculeus
Now wait a minute.. We have a bonafied "deaconess" in the bible. But they are of course fudging on the female apostle?

Why? What purpose would it serve?

13 posted on 07/05/2002 7:45:26 PM PDT by Jhoffa_
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To: Neever
You should check out Saddam Hussein's mother - definitely a scandalous type in a Moslem neighborhood.

There's more going on over than we realize, else there wouldn't be so many momma's boys among them!

14 posted on 07/05/2002 7:51:42 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: tellw
I think the justification for a celibate priesthood is greater than the justification for an all male priesthood. There are no physical limitations that can keep women from a priestly vocation.

I disagree with you on a number of counts.

1. The New Testament refers to ALL believers as priests...but that there are offices for ministry (giving of oneself for the Body of Christ as a servant leader)...apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers...commonly called 'the five-fold ministry'.

2. There is no New Testament justification for Church leaders to be forced into a life of celibacy. It recognizes that a very few from all walks are called to it (pointing out that a single individual has more of himself to give to the ministry than one who is married)...but it is clear that the vast majority of people are NOT.

3. The Word clearly shows women extensively involved in ministry...but that men are called to lead...this in spite of the fact that in the kingdom of God, there is absolutely no difference before God between men and women.

My two cents worth...

EV

15 posted on 07/05/2002 7:52:55 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: aculeus
For many Christians this is not news nor is it structurally important. Simply by abolishing the office of Bishop, it is then possible for women to participate fully in church life anyway.

Many Protestant denominations did so in past centuries.

16 posted on 07/05/2002 7:53:02 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: aculeus
bump
17 posted on 07/05/2002 7:55:42 PM PDT by foreverfree
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To: Siobhan; Polycarp; Aquinasfan
Bonk. Somebody let those wacky Anglicans out of their cages again. Isn't it amazing how they 'discover' things ex post facto to justify their departures from traditional Church practice and teaching? You can be our dissenting Catholic friends will be all over this 'discovery'.

Anglicanism... worst reason for founding a religious sect - ever!
18 posted on 07/05/2002 7:55:44 PM PDT by Antoninus
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To: aculeus
Feminism & PC-dom aside, why does it sometimes (often) seem Paul succeed in a 'leveraged buy-out' of the Jewish reformation initiated by Jesus?
19 posted on 07/05/2002 7:59:14 PM PDT by dodger
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To: B Knotts
This smells an awful lot like the Anglicans trying to justify their priestesses after the fact.

My exact thoughts as I read the article -- down to my favorite perjorative: "priestesses." Great minds...

20 posted on 07/05/2002 8:05:30 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: tiki; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; livius; ...
Ping
21 posted on 07/05/2002 8:08:34 PM PDT by narses
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To: tellw
The Irish comedian Dave Allen had a sketch in a confessional a woman priest and her friend having a cup of tea the Priestess says,'and you just wouldn't believe what else he's done' etc-YES THERE IS.
22 posted on 07/05/2002 8:11:13 PM PDT by Crazymonarch
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To: aculeus; All
My knowledge of Christianity is somewhat smudged by years of intemperate Protestantism following a Catholic childhood, but the Monty Python view of this would no doubt be that she was a groupie, nothing more.
23 posted on 07/05/2002 8:13:50 PM PDT by IncPen
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To: skemper
Christians for Biblical Equality The exegetical evidence is on the side of a plethora of female apostles, elders and deacons in the New Testament. Sadly, the egalitarian ethic of Jesus was replaced by the chauvinism of Hellenistic and Jewish culture in the Church by the 2nd and 3rd Centuries. Junia was an apostle in her own right. CBE has some good articles online regarding such issues.
24 posted on 07/05/2002 8:16:40 PM PDT by PresbyRev
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To: aculeus
What with the early Christian requirement that male converts be circumcised, I would not be at all surprised that women played a dominant role in the early church. parsy the sensitive.
25 posted on 07/05/2002 8:19:12 PM PDT by parsifal
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To: aculeus
bump
26 posted on 07/05/2002 8:19:19 PM PDT by jwh_Denver
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To: tellw
There are no physical limitations that can keep women from a priestly vocation.

Save blood, hormones and pregnancy leave for starters.

What is wrong with recognizing the fecundity and soft hearts of women as a blessing and leaving the combat duty and toeing of the line to men who are far more suited to such things?

Just as there is a natural division of labor between the male and female DNA in every first cell of every human being, so too there is a natural division of labor in human endeavors ... at home, work or in the Church.

27 posted on 07/05/2002 8:19:57 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: tellw
but do you call them father?
28 posted on 07/05/2002 8:21:05 PM PDT by teeman8r
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To: Antoninus
Anglicanism... worst reason for founding a religious sect - ever!

I'm Henry the Eighth, I am!

You got a problem with Kings that fancy themselves Popes?

29 posted on 07/05/2002 8:22:55 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: aculeus
I'd like to see their Scriptural basis for this. There were 12 Apostles of Jesus. One betrayed him and was replaced (#13). St. Paul is considered an honorary 14th Apostle as he never was acquainted with Jesus in the flesh. There are no more Apostles, male or female. Zero, zip, nada. Where are they getting this?

We already know that women were prominent in the ministry of Jesus. Joanna, Mary Magdalene and other wealthy women were the patronesses of Jesus. We know there were many prominent female disciples and patronesses, but I have never seen anything anywhere naming them as Apostles.

30 posted on 07/05/2002 8:23:01 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: parsifal

Sure that shouldn't be signed "Parsy the painful"

?

31 posted on 07/05/2002 8:25:50 PM PDT by Jhoffa_
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To: PresbyRev
I'm asking in a kind, non-hostile manner I assure you; do you have any Scriptural references you can give me??
32 posted on 07/05/2002 8:28:57 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: aculeus
This sounds to me like feminist propoganda!
33 posted on 07/05/2002 8:31:25 PM PDT by Conservative Chicagoan
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To: *Christian_list; *Religion; Diago; Salvation
fyi
34 posted on 07/05/2002 8:39:36 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: goldenstategirl
I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but here's what seems to be a fairly rational discussion of the subject:

http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml

35 posted on 07/05/2002 8:44:03 PM PDT by Gee Wally
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To: goldenstategirl
Respectfully, we also know that Mary Magdalen was the first witnesses to the Resurrection, after every man in Christ's company until his arrest, abandoned him.
36 posted on 07/05/2002 8:46:31 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: aculeus
Wasn't there a female pope at one time?
37 posted on 07/05/2002 8:53:54 PM PDT by Grig
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To: Gee Wally
Thank you for the link.
38 posted on 07/05/2002 9:46:30 PM PDT by d4now
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To: Gee Wally; drstevej
Very interesting link. Thanks.

Steve, do you have any thoughts on this?

39 posted on 07/05/2002 9:57:22 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: onedoug
Yes, absolutely :-)
40 posted on 07/05/2002 9:58:28 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: goldenstategirl
I certainly appreciate your query. I have tried to break
myself of jumping on theology/religion threads on FR b/c
so often it descends into uncharitable spectacle for
our atheist/agnostic/other friends. I am usually among the guilty. So, having indulged myself on this point, I'm going to simply leave it at the link for anyone interested.

However, the link I provided to 'Christians for Biblical
Equality' has excellent online articles that deal with
specific passages, exegesis, the hermeneutical presuppositions of both 'camps' on the issue, etc. Also,
there are well-researched, scholarly texts available for sale. Among them are: Aida Spencer Besacon's "Beyond the Curse," which is probably one of the most thoroughgoing in its Scriptural analysis of both OT and NT relevant passages.

If I'm not mistaken, the Evangelical Theological Society
either online and certainly in back issues (a list of backlisted editions of their 'Review' and articles is available) have had contributors deal with various texts
and pericopes relating to the role and ecclesial offices
of women in the New Testament/Apostolic era Church.

Blessings & Peace!


41 posted on 07/05/2002 9:58:42 PM PDT by PresbyRev
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To: PresbyRev
I understand :-) Thanks for the resources. I'll take a look.
42 posted on 07/05/2002 10:01:10 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: aculeus
Just one woman? If we are going to re-write history let's do it correctly (as in politically correct). I have newly discovered evidence that there was an African-American Apostle also.......
43 posted on 07/05/2002 10:24:11 PM PDT by arm958
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To: B Knotts
This smells an awful lot like the Anglicans trying to justify their priestesses after the fact.

There are many scholars outside the Anglican tradition (i.e. Protestant Arminians among others) who also regard Junia as a female Apostle. As far as this whole Junia is Joana thing, I'm not privy to evidence to speak authoratively on.

In another Scripture, Paul mentions two laborers with him in the gospel, "Priscilla and Aquilla" (a husband and wife team). It is notable that Paul mentions Priscilla first, possibly hinting that she is in a more visible role in ministry than her husband.

Furthermore, history is replete with examples of women that have been used mightily by God in ministry; among them, Catherine Booth and Amy Carmichael.

When I try to speak to some Reformed brethren concerning Scripture that describes God's relational nature to His creation, the answer that is always thrown back at me "God is Sovereign" and "you can't limit His Sovereignty", usually without making a meaningful attempt to deal with the text of Scripture. Well, why can't I say here on the issue of women in ministry, "God is Sovereign." "Who are you to tell God who he can choose or not choose?" If they direct me to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 or 1 Timothy 2:11-15, I can just reply, "You can't understand what God is saying there. That's a mystery. God is sovereign." Of course, I would never give an answer that didn't take into account Scripture, but if it's good for the goose, why not for the gander?

44 posted on 07/05/2002 10:30:10 PM PDT by streetpreacher
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To: aculeus
Instead of Junia, maybe they meant Junior, as in St. Junior.
45 posted on 07/05/2002 10:30:22 PM PDT by Consort
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To: goldenstategirl
Wasn't familiar with the discussion. In looking at the Greek text of Romans 16:7 I think the argument turns on:

[1] Is Iounian a female or male?;

[2] the meaning of the prepositional phrase "en tois apostolois";

[3] and whether "apostolois" in this context means "sent ones" as opposed to the office of apostle.

Whatever the conclusions, I hardly think this opens the office of bishop to women -- hard to meet the "husband of one wife" requirement [1 Tim. 3:2].

My take at this point is that if Junian/Junia is a female she was a woman of note as was Prisca/Priscilla [2 Timothy 4:19] who with her husband Aquuila helped Apollos to understand the Scriptures.

Thanks for the ping!

46 posted on 07/05/2002 10:31:30 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: tellw
I think the justification for a celibate priesthood is greater than the justification for an all male priesthood. There are no physical limitations that can keep women from a priestly vocation.

What justification? There's no Sriptural justification for the former, or possibly the latter.

47 posted on 07/05/2002 10:33:28 PM PDT by streetpreacher
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To: EternalVigilance; Claud; dadwags; SoothingDave; al_c; Notwithstanding; JHavard; Havoc; ...
Looks to me like someone with an ecclesiastical political agenda in search of scriptural justification to back it up.

ya think..LOL

thought you all would like to weigh on on this ..a little publicty for the NEW PC NIV??

48 posted on 07/05/2002 10:33:59 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: PresbyRev
No sale rev!
49 posted on 07/05/2002 10:36:36 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: skemper
Good exegesis. Saved my a post.
50 posted on 07/05/2002 10:37:25 PM PDT by razorbak
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