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Reagan-appointed judge has words for Ashcroft
Seattle Post-Intelligencier ^ | JOEL CONNELLY

Posted on 07/15/2002 8:25:01 AM PDT by count me in

If he can spare a few hours from announcing new restrictions on civil liberties, Attorney General John Ashcroft might stop by to hear one of Ronald Reagan's best judicial appointees.

Ashcroft doesn't do much listening, but U.S. District Judge John Coughenour, in his annual address to Western Washington University's Munro Teachers Seminar, might have set him straight on a fundamental truth that has escaped our nation's chief law enforcement officer.

"The Constitution of the United States says what it means and means what it says" is a basic mantra to Coughenour, the chief federal judge for Western Washington.

Coughenour has had occasion to repeat those words, not only at Western but when FBI chief Robert Mueller suggested to him in a conversation that security has supplanted civil liberties concerns in post-9/11 America.

Protestations of a liberal judge?

Nonsense!

Jack Coughenour is one of Republican former Sen. Slade Gorton's closest friends. He was Reagan's first nominee to the federal bench in these parts. His screener at the Justice Department was Ted Olson, who is now U.S. solicitor general.

He is, as well, renowned as a no-nonsense courtroom disciplinarian.

Woe be unto any attorney who arrives late in Coughenour's courtroom. Or any male barrister who does not don a coat and tie, even for the briefest status conference. Or who dares plunk a briefcase on top of the judge's desk.

But it's not hard to see how President Bush's we-are-at-war policies could alarm a stickler for procedure and believer in the rule of law. Or one who concurs, as the late Texas Rep. Barbara Jordan put it, "The Constitution is absolute."

Overriding constitutional guarantees, and daring federal courts to do anything about it, is Bush's battle strategy.

In particular, Coughenour cites the case of Jose Padilla, the one-time Chicago street criminal arrested entering the United States in May and alleged to be in the initial stages of what Ashcroft called a plot to set off "dirty" radioactive bombs.

Padilla has not been charged with a crime. He is being held as an "enemy combatant." Ashcroft claims the government can keep people sitting indefinitely in military brigs, without charge and no access to counsel.

"Mr. Padilla is an American citizen," Coughenour said. "He is before a military tribunal. This is unprecedented."

In 1942, the FBI apprehended German saboteurs landed by submarine on Long Island with the assignment of disrupting American war industries. One turned out to be an American patriot, who turned in his cohorts. The German saboteurs were eventually executed.

They were enemy combatants in every sense of the word. They had a specific mission. Seven were German citizens. The U.S. Congress had officially declared war on the Third Reich.

Does prosecution of this war on terror require running roughshod over our Founders' rules of civil society? Does it make sense to do so?

Judiciously, Coughenour raised these questions Friday before the Munro Seminar (which was taped by TVW and will be broadcast statewide).

In 21 years on the bench, the judge said, what he's come to appreciate most about the American government is the First Amendment -- guaranteeing freedom of speech and assembly -- as well as the right of a defendant to face a jury of his or her peers.

"The commitment to a jury trial -- the idea of putting ordinary citizens between the accused and their government -- is a rather extraordinary thing: It is not universal," Coughenour said.

"What it means is: The government cannot send someone to jail unless 12 ordinary people say, 'The government got it right.'"

Under Bush's rules of detention, the government doesn't have to get it right. Or disclose its evidence. Or even charge someone with a crime.

With Ashcroft questioning the patriotism of anyone who questions him, the administration appears to be getting its way.

Friday, a 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel reversed a district court judge's ruling that the "Sec- ond American Taliban," a young man born in Louisiana to Saudi parents, had a right to an attorney.

The appellate judges did stop short of approving the Justice Department's sweeping claim that the president has an absolute right to decide who is an unlawful combatant, and that the courts should butt out. They sent the case back to district court for consideration.

The 4th Circuit panel noted, however, that the Supreme Court has shown great deference to the federal government in deciding matters of national security.

Egregious, needless violations of individual rights have stemmed from that premise. Just remember those 1942 pictures of Japanese Americans on the dock at Bainbridge Island, their internment in remote camps upheld by the Supremes.

The basics of American democracy -- the right to trial, the right to counsel, the rule of law -- need defenders these days.

A man put on the bench by Republicans, Coughenour wonders when Congress' loyal opposition will find a voice.

"In my view, the Democratic Party has a responsibility to speak up on these issues," he said. "It isn't happening. Why aren't they speaking out? I don't understand it."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; US: Washington
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"In my view, the Democratic Party has a responsibility to speak up on these issues," he said. "It isn't happening. Why aren't they speaking out? I don't understand it."

Not words of a liberal.

1 posted on 07/15/2002 8:25:01 AM PDT by count me in
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To: Stand Watch Listen; snopercod; joanie-f; TPartyType; Covenantor; count me in
VIP.
2 posted on 07/15/2002 8:31:25 AM PDT by First_Salute
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To: count me in
Interesting that the author couldn't find any quotes from the judge to support the author's view- yet pretends he did.

Coughenour: "Padilla... is before a military tribunal"
No he isn't.

3 posted on 07/15/2002 8:35:54 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: count me in
"Mr. Padilla is an American citizen," Coughenour said. "He is before a military tribunal. This is unprecedented."

Mr. Padilla is a foreign agent of influence. Mr. Padilla is a threat to national security. Mr. Padilla foreswore his "rights" as soon as he decided that a leader of a radical form of Islam located in another country was his man.

I have no sympathy, none whatsoever. This ain't a carjacking, you judicial idiot.

4 posted on 07/15/2002 8:36:28 AM PDT by Illbay
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: illuminati
Somenone should also investigate the Reagan presidency. Why would he appoint somenone with such obvious Al-Quaeda ties?

If you are not with Ashcroft, you are with the terrorists!
6 posted on 07/15/2002 8:40:55 AM PDT by count me in
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To: mrsmith
Jose Padilla

Who? There is nobody by that name. There are some Islamic names that I've heard that are attached to a terrorist who lived in Florida, but this Padilla person ceased to exist some time ago.

7 posted on 07/15/2002 8:40:56 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: AmishDude
I like what Boortz calls him... Osama Bin Lopez
8 posted on 07/15/2002 8:44:20 AM PDT by Phantom Lord
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To: count me in
If the Republicans are the ones *#&@-ing the Constitution, then the Democrats do have a moral obligation to call them on it... just as the Republicans would (we hope) take the Dems to task on it if the tables were turned. That's what a robust, engaged democracy with two major parties should be about.

Unfortunately, it's now very clear that we do not have a robust, engaged democracy. Our politics have become stagnant and listless, as both parties are now hellbent on giving more power to the federal government, rather than existing to keep the feds in continual check.

Fact of the matter is, we've now had two presidential administrations back-to-back that don't give a flying rat's butt about the Constitution, and very few people of our elected officials really mind that it's happening. The judge is right: the Constitution means what it says, to hell with "expert" interpretation.

9 posted on 07/15/2002 8:47:28 AM PDT by Darth Sidious
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To: count me in
First of all, the Ashcroft reference tipped me off. The liberals hate Ashcroft. He is their lightning rod, their focus of evil. The military tribunal stuff is in the pervue of the DoD, not DoJ. Second, there are very few actual quotes from the judge himself -- and none about Ashcroft -- but the author goes off on his own tangents.

You know, I'm going to do a search on this judge. Reagan-appointed or not, I suspect that his affinity for the Democratic party is not newly-minted.

10 posted on 07/15/2002 8:48:14 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: count me in
Quick Question to the Judge:

If "[t]he Constitution of the United States says what it means and means what it says", then why is it under constant assault by judicial activists?

Why is the Second Amendment treated differently than the First?

How is it that the "law" has seen fit to allow a mother to kill her unborn child for any reason, just cause she "chooses" to? What about the rights of the child? The law sees fit that the unborn child has a claim that can be made against the father? But, the unborn child doesn't have a right to live? If the constitutions has granted that a mother has a right to choice, doesn't the father too?

Where is this judge and his retort when it comes to these issues?

If the Constitution says what it means and means what it says, why aren't you out fighting the liberals who are actively (EVERY FRIGGIN' DAY) seeking the destruction of it? You know, if you are going to critcize the AG, why not criticize some other cupable people...Clinton, Dasshole, Gephardt, and the other socialist who have enabled our enemies to attack us? Just think, Mr. Wizard, if these A-HOLES would have done their job, instead of lined their pockets, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion!

11 posted on 07/15/2002 8:55:26 AM PDT by mattdono
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To: AmishDude
Well, the judge might be a corrupted Dem who thinks he can rewrite the Founders' Constitution to put the Judiciary Branch in charge of unlawful combatants.

However it's more likely that he gave a speech defending the role of the Judiciary in times of crisis and the author picked out a very few excerpts that he could twist to make the judge sound that way.

The big clue, to me, is the paucity of actual quotes.

Here's a Real Audio of the speech, I couldn't find a transcript: HERE

12 posted on 07/15/2002 8:58:45 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Darth Sidious
Our whole system depends on what a $1000 an hour lawyer can convince a lifetime appointed lawyer/judge our Constitution means. It's much easier than passing laws to ammend that once honored document. Looks pretty bleak to me.
13 posted on 07/15/2002 8:59:00 AM PDT by steve50
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To: count me in
""The Constitution is absolute.""

Bravo Judge Coughenour. If any of you think that Judge Coughenour is a liberal then you don't understand what a Conservative is. The point the Judge is making with regards to the Democrats is valid. The Republicans are not going to voice objection. Even the most strident Republican Attorney’s are having a problem defending this policy of detention without due process. But very few are focused on the Constitutional implications. That alone should alarm everyone. Again this is easily solved. Allow the Military to try both Foreigners and Americans with regards to these cases.

14 posted on 07/15/2002 9:06:40 AM PDT by habaes corpussel
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To: Darth Sidious
With Representative forms of government, the people usually wind up with the government they deserve.

For anyone interested, here's another link describing this judge:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/judge12.shtml

For what it's worth, I agree with the judge. Padilla or Mustafa or whatever he's called should be tried in a US Court. If the evidence won't stand up in front of a jury, then it sure doesn't justify tearing down the bill of rights.
15 posted on 07/15/2002 9:08:59 AM PDT by ReadMyMind
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To: count me in
What kills me is the attitude of so many people.

The government has taken an American citizen--not a naturalized citizen, as if that would make a difference, but a guy born in Brooklyn, and locked him up. They have done this without filing a charge by suspending habeas corpus, they have denied him an attorney, and have made it clear they have no intentions of ever bringing charges against him--in essence, they have imprisoned him for life without the benefits of a trial. Moreover, we don't have any evidence this man is guilty of anything, except more than a government say-so, which obviously has a conflict of interest.

And you just nod and smile, and say, "yeah, that's about right."

But when a judge (or anyone else) actually objects to the practice of ignoring the fundamental judical concepts on which our country was founded, you proclaim that he must be a Democrat in disguise, or, worse yet--a traitor to the United States! What the government is doing is wrong--both legally and morally. People have got to speak up, and it's nice to see another judge finally free himself from that wretched threat by Ashcroft--"you're either with us or against us." Given the actions of the government, I sure don't want to be with them.
16 posted on 07/15/2002 9:10:15 AM PDT by Viva Le Dissention
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To: count me in
About the judge in question:
  1. Ruled with the ACLU in a solicitations permit case.
  2. Ruled against Microsoft on a copyright case.
  3. Ruled with the ACLU keeping a school from suspending a student based on his web site.
  4. After an armed standoff, the judge sentenced the Freemen to stiff sentences, one to 22.5 years to send "a loud and clear message". Interesting contrast to the last case.
  5. Ordered the EPA to be MORE strict on pesticides.
  6. But my favorite: "The Seattle judge has been an outspoken critic of federal sentencing guidelines and mandatory minimums that have eroded the discretion judges have in punishing offenders, particularly in drug cases."

In fact, the only "conservative" case I can find is where he ruled TCI cablevision can censor things that are placed on its cable system.

Here's a great quote: Coughenour was appointed to the federal bench by conservative president Ronald Reagan in 1981. But he hold's some decidedly liberal views for an American judge. He's perturbed by "the insanity of our gun laws." He is an admirer of Canada's rehabilitative justice system.

Fact is, any fair judge is likely to come out on the left side of an issue once in a while and based on cursory reading, I'd agree with 1-4. But this guy is a 100% liberal who has some problems with his own conscience, IMHO.

17 posted on 07/15/2002 9:12:00 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: AmishDude
This is interesting:
District Judge John Coughenour had ruled testimony of a Ressam-bin Laden link inadmissible because of its "potential prejudice to jurors."

The date of the article: July 18, 2001

18 posted on 07/15/2002 9:18:01 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: AmishDude
By the way, the ACLU isn't a "liberal" organization. I'm a member of the ACLU, and I'm about as conservative as a person gets.

The ACLU exists solely to sue the government when it interferes with the freedom of its citizens. If that isn't the rallying cry of conservatives--smaller government!--I don't know what is.

Here's the link to an interesting book, written by George Bush supporter and former executive director of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. It is entitled, "What's a Nice Republican Girl Like Me Doing in the ACLU?"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573921432/cyberhaven00/104-2097918-1997564
19 posted on 07/15/2002 9:25:12 AM PDT by Viva Le Dissention
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To: joanie-f
Bump for comment.
20 posted on 07/15/2002 9:31:26 AM PDT by SiliconValleyGuy
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To: Viva Le Dissention
By the way, the ACLU isn't a "liberal" organization. I'm a member of the ACLU, and I'm about as conservative as a person gets.

Not according to your posts, oh dissenting one.

The ACLU is a liberal organization, at the very least by virtue of the cases that they choose, regardless of the high-mindedness of their mission statement. Other than getting Klan march permits, very little of the ACLU's work does not aid and abet liberal causes.

21 posted on 07/15/2002 9:32:22 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: Viva Le Dissention
I wondered if someone would be so desperate to criticize the Constitutionality of the Congress's use of it's war Powers that they would try to get away with saying that padilla's Habeas Corpus rights had been suspended-
even though Padilla's habeas corpus petition is before a court at this very minute!

The liberal desire to reinterpret the Constitution to give the Judicial Branch the power to try combatants- like all liberal schemes to write new rights into it (for our own good of of course)- disgusts me.

If you don't like what the Founders did you should try to amend the Constitution.
And you can pass that on to your ACLU buddies.

22 posted on 07/15/2002 9:35:04 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Illbay
This ain't a carjacking, you judicial idiot.

Please take you index finger and point it at this reply I am posting. Notice there are three fingers pointing back at yourself?

BTW, have you ever been a Federal judge?

23 posted on 07/15/2002 9:43:26 AM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: AmishDude
"Fact is, any fair judge is likely to come out on the left side of an issue once in a while and based on cursory reading, I'd agree with 1-4. But this guy is a 100% liberal who has some problems with his own conscience, IMHO."

The point is that Judge Coughenour rulings are based on a solid foundation of law and the case as presented. Nothing you presented shows me where Judge Coughenour has ruled based on a liberal political point of view. Besides what is the problem with a Judge with a conscience? It’s refreshing at least.

24 posted on 07/15/2002 9:46:00 AM PDT by habaes corpussel
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To: mrsmith
If you don't like what the Founders did you should try to amend the Constitution.

You should take your own advice:

Article III Section. 3.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted (CONVICTED, AS IN TRIAL) of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court" (COURT, AS IN THE PLACE TRIALS ARE HELD).

"The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

The Constitution is crystal clear in these matters. Americans who levy war against their own country are considered treasonous, by definition. Americans accused of treason are constitutionally guaranteed a trial.

25 posted on 07/15/2002 9:49:26 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: habaes corpussel
The point is that Judge Coughenour rulings are based on a solid foundation of law and the case as presented.

Really? In every single case? How remarkable. Does the "solid foundation of law" include sending "a clear message". And what about the extra-judicial quotes attributed to him? Do they bear any weight?

Perhaps conscience doesn't convey I was expressing. How about "guilty conscience"?

26 posted on 07/15/2002 9:50:08 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: CWRWinger
BTW, have you ever been a Federal judge?

Nope. Too smart. Law degree is a step waaaaaaaay down.

27 posted on 07/15/2002 9:51:20 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: freeeee
You think he is on trial for treason???????

No wonder this case bothers you- you have it confused with some other case- one that probably doesn't exist in this universe.

28 posted on 07/15/2002 9:54:29 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: habaes corpussel
"detention without due process"

What due process do you think Padilla has been denied? Please tell me!

I remind you: His habeas corpus petition is before a court right now.

Honestly, if someone would state a specific complaint about the Constitutionality of the handling of this case, I'd be very interested.

29 posted on 07/15/2002 9:55:54 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: count me in
"Mr. Padilla is an American citizen," Coughenour said. "He is before a military tribunal. This is unprecedented."

Last time I looked, unprecedented meant "never happened before".

Perhaps Judge Coughenour should read a little history. In 1942, a U.S. military tribunal tried eight Nazi saboteurs. Two of them were U.S. citizens. One of the two citizens was executed on the day after the verdict was read. The second received a prison sentence.

30 posted on 07/15/2002 9:57:25 AM PDT by jackbill
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To: AmishDude
Just because he's a Reagan appointee, doesn't mean he's right. Remember Souter! Oh, I wish we could jusr forget that lost cause.
31 posted on 07/15/2002 9:57:43 AM PDT by Marysecretary
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To: mrsmith
You think he is on trial for treason???????

Um, no. I think he is being held indefinitely without being charged or having a trial. That's the source of the controversy concerning this case, remember? Please try to keep up.

No wonder this case bothers you

Yah, when the Constitution is brazenly and openly violated it bothers me. Imagine that.

32 posted on 07/15/2002 9:59:12 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: AmishDude
While admittedly the ACLU is somewhat hesitant to prosecute gun cases, it is a fault that can be forgiven, since we have the NRA to do *some* of the work on that one.

Other than that, I have no problem with the caseload the ACLU chooses. I don't think many of their cases advance "liberal" causes, mostly because they are suing the government for acting beyond the scope of its constitutional powers. The only really traditionally liberal causes it champions are gay rights, but as a true conservative, I recognize the government has no business regulating the sexual activities of its citizens.

We don't pick and choose when we want to enforce our constitution--that is for "liberal" or "conservative" causes--free speech is free speech, be it for porn on the Internet or Illinois Nazis or "traditional" political speech on a soapbox--all of which the ACLU has fought the government for the right to do.

Or, like this term, we have the unconstitutional and warantless searches by government. And, no matter your politics, (unless your name is Scalia!) I think you would agree that chaining a prisoner to a hitching post all day in 100+ degree heat without food or water would constitute as cruel and unusual punishment. The ACLU took those cases, too.

Now, while the ACLU is traditionally made up of left-leaning people, you have to look at the end result and not the people that get that result.
33 posted on 07/15/2002 10:00:33 AM PDT by Viva Le Dissention
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To: mrsmith
Honestly, if someone would state a specific complaint about the Constitutionality of the handling of this case, I'd be very interested.

I hope you've got plenty of time.

34 posted on 07/15/2002 10:01:27 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Not prosecute--I meant hesitant to take gun cases. sorry.
35 posted on 07/15/2002 10:01:28 AM PDT by Viva Le Dissention
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To: AmishDude
Law degree is a step waaaaaaaay down.

Yes, morally and ethically. What lawyers really learn in school, is how to 'legally' plunder the system.

36 posted on 07/15/2002 10:09:04 AM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: freeeee
You think he is on trial for treason???????
Um, no.

Wow, you learned something already! I'm impressed.


So your new claim is that the Constitution should be changed to give the Judicial Branch exactly what new power so they can do more than hold a habeas corpus hearing for an accused citizen combatant?

37 posted on 07/15/2002 10:15:04 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: mrsmith
Note: it's been a month this the petition for a writ of habeas corpus has been requested.

The judge has said he doesn't know if or when he'll rule on it.

Sounds like it's being denied to me.

Speaking of re-interpreting the Constitution, I wasn't aware that the government had the right to pick and choose to whom it extended the "right" of a jury trial. Apparently that was in the second printing.
38 posted on 07/15/2002 10:18:37 AM PDT by Viva Le Dissention
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To: mrsmith
"What due process do you think Padilla has been denied? Please tell me!"

You answered your own question."I remind you: His habeas corpus petition is before a court right now." If there was no violation of the Constitution and the Sixth Amendment there would be no standing for a writ of Habaes Corpus in this case. You cannot detain a US Citizen arrested on US Soil for an indefinite period without charged and without representation because you fell like it or label someone something. This is the basic foundation of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Now what is the problem you are having with this?

39 posted on 07/15/2002 10:19:26 AM PDT by habaes corpussel
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To: jwalsh07
"I hope you've got plenty of time. "

No takers- no one ever wants to admit they're advocating new powers for the Judiciary.

I don't mind those who are wrining their hands over this conflict between the laws of war and the Constitution- that's a good thing to do, we should all be very concerned.
But I turn to the Founders for guidance in how to handle it and those who ignore the balancing of powers and rights the Founders attained in the Constitution are foolish IMHO.

Congressional authorization for the president's use of military force and Habeas Corpus to object to it's use against citizens- that's a commendable process that is being followed.

40 posted on 07/15/2002 10:25:51 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: mrsmith
So your new claim is that the Constitution should be changed to give the Judicial Branch exactly what new power so they can do more than hold a habeas corpus hearing for an accused citizen combatant?

No. My claim is that Mr. Padilla is accused of levying war against our country. And the Constitution explicitly defines this behavior as the crime of Treason. Furthermore, the Constitution guarantees those accused of Treason a trial, during which no fewer than two witnesses must testify in order to gain a conviction.

That is what the Constitution says, in very plain words that even the most obtuse individual can understand. I advocate no changes to the Constitution, rather I would prefer that our government adhere to its crystal clear mandates in this case.

This really isn't all that difficult to understand.

41 posted on 07/15/2002 10:25:55 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: mrsmith
"Congressional authorization for the president's use of military force and Habeas Corpus to object to it's use against citizens- that's a commendable process that is being followed."

It is???? Where? Please show me this? If your referring to EX PARTE QUIRIN, 317 U.S. 1 (1942). you are absolutely wrong.

42 posted on 07/15/2002 10:29:43 AM PDT by habaes corpussel
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To: Viva Le Dissention
And, no matter your politics, (unless your name is Scalia!) I think you would agree that chaining a prisoner to a hitching post all day in 100+ degree heat without food or water would constitute as cruel and unusual punishment.

You wacky right-wingnut, you. Gratuitous ad hominem and ungermane swipes at Scalia are right out of the VRWC handbook, aren't they?

The ACLU took those cases, too.

Man, is this the civil-rights-movement tactic of referring to decades-old actions to ameliorate current sins? And talk about your non-sequitors!

But what's interesting is that the first 6 items I found were the first 6 distinct items I found on a Google search. I didn't look past the fifth page. I didn't pick and choose. I expected to see some very boring, pedestrian and non-political decisions. Silly me.

43 posted on 07/15/2002 10:32:11 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: mrsmith
Congressional authorization for the president's use of military force and Habeas Corpus to object to it's use against citizens- that's a commendable process that is being followed.

Exactly so mrsmith.

44 posted on 07/15/2002 10:32:18 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: CWRWinger
What lawyers really learn in school, is how to 'legally' plunder the system.

Some of my best friends are lawyers. No, really. Not criminal defense attorneys, of course . . .

But I should have added at least half a
:-)

45 posted on 07/15/2002 10:33:33 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: habaes corpussel
"If there was no violation of the Constitution and the Sixth Amendment there would be no standing for a writ of Habaes Corpus in this case. "

NO.

If there was no claim of a violatin of the Constitution and the Sixth Amendment there would be no standing for a writ of Habaes Corpus in this case.

He has the right to claim that he should not be held as a combatant. The court has the power to decide the worth of that claim.

If the military does not convince the judge that he is lawfully considered a combatant the judge will order that he be released; if they do he may be held until the Congressional authority is rescinded.

That is not only the proper Constitutional way to handle this- it is a dam* impressively fair one.

46 posted on 07/15/2002 10:38:40 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: habaes corpussel
"Please show me this? "

Show you what- specifically. Your question is, to me, ambiguous.


And thanks for being specific in your earlier question!
I'll try to be too.

47 posted on 07/15/2002 10:43:57 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: count me in
The 4th Circuit panel noted, however, that the Supreme Court has shown great deference to the federal government in deciding matters of national security.

Imagine that. Perhaps we should entrust national security to attorneys??

48 posted on 07/15/2002 10:55:16 AM PDT by Shryke
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To: mrsmith
With all due respect. I am a former JAG Officer. The military is NOT charged with trying Americans in this case. Congress has NOT authorized the Military to do such and the President has NOT charged the military with doing such either. Matter of fact the President did the opposite. Even if this was the case under the UCMJ a detaniee has the right to counsel within 48 hours. There is no charge filed in any Military Tribunal nor is there any charge pending in any Military Tribunal. Whether the tribunal is lawfully or unlawfully conviened.

Show me where Congress or the President has charged the US Military with trying Americans arrested on US Soil as either Lawful or Unlawful belligerents?

49 posted on 07/15/2002 11:03:00 AM PDT by habaes corpussel
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To: CWRWinger
No. Have you ever been a female child? Then don't complain about child rape.
50 posted on 07/15/2002 11:07:43 AM PDT by Illbay
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