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Jewish rejection of evangelicals rooted in cynicism, ignorance, fear
JTA ^ | 7-16-02 | Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein

Posted on 07/25/2002 6:50:55 AM PDT by SJackson

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1 posted on 07/25/2002 6:50:55 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Wise words from a wise man.
2 posted on 07/25/2002 7:02:05 AM PDT by robowombat
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To: SJackson
"What is clearly visible to me from my vantage point is that the majority of evangelicals are passionately pro-Israel because it is part of their theology to love and support the Jewish people."

This sums it all up. I just wish that American Jews could wake up and see this.

3 posted on 07/25/2002 7:03:34 AM PDT by fogarty
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To: SJackson
BTTT
4 posted on 07/25/2002 7:04:17 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: SJackson; LarryLied

THINK ABOUT THIS:

You post good stuff from Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein....
While Larry Lied posts the garbage from leftist lesbo Arlene Stein. Lied's mission being to harm Christian-Jewish relations.
5 posted on 07/25/2002 7:10:18 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: dennisw
Actually, the articles were an editorial page trilogy.

Evangelical support helps Israel, and it s not based on anti-Semitism

Jewish affair with Christian right is both misguided and shortsighted

The original poster prefers to only one side of the story.

6 posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:57 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson
But it is not individual Jews I hold responsible for this state of affairs. Instead, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the organized Jewish community, who have sinned by omitting serious discussion and consideration of this matter for the better part of the last 20 years.

I believe the blame really lies with the media-entertainment axis in Hollywood and New York, which is intensely hostile to religion in general, but Christianity in particular. They go out of their way to drive a wedge between Christians and Jews.

7 posted on 07/25/2002 7:33:23 AM PDT by jpl
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To: SJackson
I don't stick up for Israel because I am Christian and believe that God will reward me for doing it. I do it because I cannot support our own war on terrorism and reject theirs without being a hypocrite.

Also, its because I reject the left wing fanatical argument that because some group has failed (Palestinians) that they are by definition oppressed. As Bernie Goldberg said "sometimes the underdog deserves to be the underdog".

As to why Jews are not running out to embrace right wing christians. There are several reasons. Some the author points out, some he does not.

An example--Many Jews are liberals who don't support Israel.

Another--Jewish culture has always had a leftward tilt. I'm not sure why, but it always has. So I wouldn't expect them to embrace someone they normally disagree with.

And lastly, but definitely not least--the left has been able to spread the lie that right wingers are nazi-like. When any honest appraisal would show that the modern left has far far more in common with Nazis than the right.

Beyond that there are many Jews who ARE noticing that we are on their side, and the liberals generally aren't. To them I say welcome home.


8 posted on 07/25/2002 7:40:51 AM PDT by republicman
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To: Thud
ping
9 posted on 07/25/2002 7:44:54 AM PDT by Dark Wing
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To: SJackson
After years of building bridges of understanding and cooperation with the evangelical community, I realize these bridges have remained essentially one-way streets.
. . . an echo, to me, of Ann Coulter's description of liberals seeking to find common cause with conservatives in light of 911. They wish to build bridges of understanding with conservatives, but those bridges already exist. Conservatives can't avoid hearing the views of liberals, it's the air Americans breathe who read newspapers and especially who watch TV. You cannot be conservative in America without first consciously evaluating the claims of liberalism, and finding them wanting. The trouble is not the lack of a bridge but that the bridge is one-way.

because journalism and entertainment publicly marginalize conservatives, liberals readily can avoid hearing conservatives. And they do so, studiously. One is left to suspect that deep down liberals know that their belief system won't stand scrutiny.


10 posted on 07/25/2002 7:47:31 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: SJackson
After years of building bridges of understanding and cooperation with the evangelical community, I realize these bridges have remained essentially one-way streets.
. . . an echo, to me, of Ann Coulter's description of liberals seeking to find common cause with conservatives in light of 911. They wish to build bridges of understanding with conservatives, but those bridges already exist. Conservatives can't avoid hearing the views of liberals, it's the air Americans breathe who read newspapers and especially who watch TV. You cannot be conservative in America without first consciously evaluating the claims of liberalism, and finding them wanting. The trouble is not the lack of a bridge but that the bridge is one-way.

because journalism and entertainment publicly marginalize conservatives, liberals readily can avoid hearing conservatives. And they do so, studiously. One is left to suspect that deep down liberals know that their belief system won't stand scrutiny.


11 posted on 07/25/2002 7:47:32 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: SJackson; LarryLied
Actually, the articles were an editorial page trilogy.

Evangelical support helps Israel, and it s not based on anti-Semitism

Jewish affair with Christian right is both misguided and shortsighted

The original poster prefers to only one side of the story.

Of course Lied posted the one that has some lefty Jew knocking the valuable Christian allies of Israel. His mission is to sow discord between Christians and Jews.

12 posted on 07/25/2002 7:48:43 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: republicman
Jewish culture has always had a leftward tilt. I'm not sure why, but it always has.

No, it always has not. Judaism has been around for 4000 years. The "leftward tilt" began only in the mid-1800's, with the rise of the Reform movement. Doctrines of Jewish faith were gradually replaced by liberal/left philosophy. With the rise of Orthodoxy, this trend is declining.

13 posted on 07/25/2002 7:49:29 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: republicman
This is one Jew from a family who totally recognizes the truth, about which the rabbi so eloquently wrote. Thank you for this post. My rabbi is similarly inclined; gives a "Christmas sermon" along these same lines. My mom and I recently joined the local chapter of Jewish Republicans and we are going to an event next month. LA Jews who can recognize who our real friends are (not our self-hating Hollywood Streisand types) should look into joining the organization.
14 posted on 07/25/2002 8:11:42 AM PDT by Inkie
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To: Alouette
Thanks for that clarification. You always have good posts.
15 posted on 07/25/2002 8:12:25 AM PDT by Inkie
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To: Alouette
My apologies. You're right, I stand corrected.
16 posted on 07/25/2002 9:04:17 AM PDT by republicman
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To: SJackson; dennisw; Jeremiah Jr; 2sheep; Simcha7; Prodigal Daughter
...standing for Israel is considered a mitzvah within the evangelical Christian world. Loving the Jewish people is an article of their faith, something in which they are deeply invested.

Deuteronomy 6:1-3

1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

04687 mitsvah {mits-vaw'}
from 06680; TWOT - 1887b; n f
AV - commandments 177, precept 4, commanded 2, law 1, ordinances 1; 181

1) commandment
1a) commandment (of man)
1b) the commandment (of God)
1c) commandment (of code of wisdom)

Good deeds, indeed!


Isaiah 11:11-13

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

17 posted on 07/25/2002 9:30:02 AM PDT by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Jeremiah Jr; 2sheep
I should have included the following, which is repeated seven times in the book of Revelation:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

18 posted on 07/25/2002 9:36:45 AM PDT by Thinkin' Gal
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To: SJackson
Great article. I would disagree with what he says in the motivation of Christians supporting Israel. There are some who take the view he said, however, most do so because they realize the fact that as the only democratic country in the middle east, if the USA didn't support it would have been destroyed decades ago.

What's unfortunate is that too many Jewish people have a bigoted and benighted view of active Christians. It's sad that for years they had to endure a bigotry and now they dispense it to another minority group. I think that the Hollyweird faction does play a part in this; I have yet to see a show which features evangelicals as stars and portrays them as anything other than repressed, deceitful, hate-filled hypocrites.

19 posted on 07/25/2002 11:42:37 AM PDT by GulliverSwift
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To: SJackson
Conservative (small c) Jews have always had a kind word to say about American evangelicals, but even their support is done at arm's length (unless you are a black evangelical). Liberal Jews decry and insult American evangelicals, and keep them at arm's length unless they happen to be black Baptists. The difference is that at least the conservatives don't insult us---but they don't want to rub elbows with us, either...

Check out NRO--nationalreview.com--one of my favorite online publications. This magazine has Catholics and conservative Jews in its major editorical capacity. Whenever they write an article about evangelicals and Jews, since the subject recently has become more interesting, they get a Catholic or a Jew to write it. Getting an evangelical writer is just too exotic for their tastes. I've seen it over and over...no evangelical writes for them. I guess, along with being barefoot and toothless and tattooed, we're also illiterate...?

I've gotten my feelings hurt a time or two. Sick of being accused by the liberals of antisemitism, and also sick of making the conservatives *uneasy*.

20 posted on 07/25/2002 12:07:32 PM PDT by Mamzelle
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Mamzelle
Never mind, we as evangelicals will always love Israel - yes it is a command, but deeper than that is our love for Messiah Yeshua, Who came as a Jew and is coming back to step on Israeli territory. We love you Israel, whether our love is understood or not.
23 posted on 07/25/2002 3:14:23 PM PDT by Hila
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To: SJackson
Wow.
24 posted on 07/25/2002 3:28:56 PM PDT by RAT Patrol
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To: Alouette
The "leftward tilt" began only in the mid-1800's, with the rise of the Reform movement. Doctrines of Jewish faith were gradually replaced by liberal/left philosophy.

My impression is that ALL theologically liberal movements, be they Jewish or Christian, tend to be left-wing because the almighty government fills the vacuum created by the removal of Almighty G-d from their theology.

25 posted on 07/25/2002 3:43:46 PM PDT by Inyokern
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To: zhabotinsky
Cal Thomas is syndicated--haven't seen him write for NRO yet.

My instincts about a reapproachment between Jews and Evangelicals is that even pro-Israel liberal Jews will find it harder to leave Temple Beth Hillary than to see Israel destroyed. And the conservative Jews express their thanks to evangelicals, but with a certain aloofness. NOKD.

I'd be surprised to see any increase in Jewish Republicans--the ones so inclined, we already have.

26 posted on 07/25/2002 3:55:50 PM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: republicman
Excellent observations republicman!!!!
27 posted on 07/25/2002 4:01:39 PM PDT by SolomonSemperFi
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: ConCon; dennisw
Now Dennis, better take one of your nitroglycerin pills... you're gonna do yourself a mischief getting all frothy.i

Funny, in your week or so here that's about three to five posts of yours either to me or on a thread I've started, and none of them make much sense.

Do you have anything intelligent to say that might make someone take you seriously?

29 posted on 07/25/2002 5:20:00 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: zhabotinsky
Considering that Hillary did worse among Jews than she did among either Protestants or Catholics...your crack about 'Temple Beth Hillary' is more than a bit unwarranted. I also don't think you see much 'aloofness' from Jews on this website...I'm confident the switch will manifest itself in the close races in states where there are a significant number of Jews, like the California Governor's race.

You could have added a few more ethnic groups in the Hillary column. The problem, of course, is there aren't many Jews. California, less that 3% of the electorate. We certainly want those votes, but relative to the bandwidth it gets on FR, the importance is overstated.

30 posted on 07/25/2002 5:25:07 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Mamzelle
meant to include you in 30.
31 posted on 07/25/2002 5:26:13 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: GulliverSwift
It's sad that for years they had to endure a bigotry and now they dispense it to another minority group. I think that the Hollyweird faction does play a part in this; I have yet to see a show which features evangelicals as stars and portrays them as anything other than repressed, deceitful, hate-filled hypocrites.

I think you may have hit on something. For some of my Jewish friends I am the only non-Catholic active Christian that they know. When you lack personal knowledge of something it is easy to fear it and believe what is said about it. (Yikes! I sound like a liberal there)

They did not come to me, I had to go to them to break the ice. It didn't start out as outreach I just wanted to take a class on Judaism. I just hope that now when they hear the expression "Evangelical Christian” that they have a real person with a real face to put with it rather then a liberal and media created boogie-man. And in the process I gained a deeper understanding of Christianity so insight was gained by all.

a.cricket

32 posted on 07/25/2002 5:54:23 PM PDT by another cricket
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To: another cricket
I think you may have hit on something. For some of my Jewish friends I am the only non-Catholic active Christian that they know...I just hope that now when they hear the expression "Evangelical Christian” that they have a real person with a real face to put with it rather then a liberal and media created boogie-man.

You have identified a MAJOR part of the problem, and did your friends a great service.

33 posted on 07/25/2002 6:08:16 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Alouette
> Judaism has been around for 4000 years.

No it hasn't. That is ridiculous and you well know it!

There were no Jews 4,000 years ago, not even any Israelites. Jacob/Israel was not even yet born.

To get your head straightened out about the most basic history, please read the 3-MINUTE HISTORY at my FR Profile below before responding. Thank You.

34 posted on 07/25/2002 7:26:33 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: SJackson
Thanks for posting. The Israeli Jews have awaken a long time ago, it is time for their American counterparts to do the same.
35 posted on 07/25/2002 11:30:04 PM PDT by Michael2001
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To: SJackson
You could have added a few more ethnic groups in the Hillary column. The problem, of course, is there aren't many Jews. California, less that 3% of the electorate. We certainly want those votes, but relative to the bandwidth it gets on FR, the importance is overstated.

The Jewish vote is more than their mere numbers. Unlike many other "minority groups", Jews are well integrated, and they have many non-Jewish yet liberal friends and family. If they switch alliegances, they may take some of those with them
36 posted on 07/25/2002 11:33:36 PM PDT by Michael2001
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To: LostTribe; Alouette; zhabotinsky; SJackson; Simcha7; Yehuda; dennisw; Jeremiah Jr; crystalk
>There were no Jews 4,000 years ago, not even any Israelites. Jacob/Israel was not even yet born.  To get your head straightened out about the most basic history, please read the 3-MINUTE HISTORY at my FR Profile below before responding. Thank You.

No, thank you.  This verse is from Thinkin' Gal's post #17 above:

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off:

I suspect that Alouette is of Judah.  Right now you are sounding like an adversary of Judah.  Re-read the above verse.  Beware provoking the Most High who indeed can make you a lost member of any tribe you pick and cut you off!  Lost forever!

37 posted on 07/26/2002 4:47:57 AM PDT by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep
I suspect that Alouette is of Judah.

Good guess, but actually I am of Levi. :)

38 posted on 07/26/2002 4:59:57 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: Alouette
Perhaps you can lay the Law down then.

;)
39 posted on 07/26/2002 5:07:13 AM PDT by 2sheep
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To: Thinkin' Gal
Sadly, most American Jews, the reform, liberal wing, can almost be termed secular Jewry..the kind who only goes to temple twice a year..on the High Holy Days, and parks the car one block down from the synogogue so they can display "piety"...they're the same folks who join a temple a year before their son or daughter wil turn 13.....they have no sense of what it means to be a Jew, let alone believe in God, so the Evangelicals, to them, are from another planet...and sadly, we tend to fear that which we do not understand...<P.
Have one question about one of the Rebbe's comments....that evangelicalss with attempt to convert him.....it's my understanding that evangelical Christians, believing that Jews are God's chosen people, therefore Jews are "exempt" from prosyltyzing....(sp?)..I always mess up that word..is this too simplistic an analysis....thanks..
40 posted on 07/26/2002 5:17:39 AM PDT by ken5050
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To: fogarty
"What is clearly visible to me from my vantage point is that the majority of evangelicals are passionately pro-Israel because it is part of their theology to love and support the Jewish people."

No, American christians are often pro-isreal because of their shared western values. Not for theological reasons.
41 posted on 07/26/2002 5:21:28 AM PDT by Octavius
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: SJackson
Good article. Bump!
43 posted on 07/26/2002 6:22:30 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: Alouette
Haven't we had about enough of Lost Tribe on all Jewish-related threads? He needs to get lost himself, we have heard too much from his tribe already.
44 posted on 07/26/2002 6:28:17 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: ken5050
it's my understanding that evangelical Christians, believing that Jews are God's chosen people, therefore Jews are "exempt" from prosyltyzing.

Not so, unfortunately. Some may have this opinion, but other evangelical groups pour tens of millions of dollars into efforts to convert Jews (see "Jews for Jesus" and the proliferation of "messianic Jewish" groups).

45 posted on 07/26/2002 6:35:30 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: Michael2001
The Jewish vote is more than their mere numbers. Unlike many other "minority groups", Jews are well integrated, and they have many non-Jewish yet liberal friends and family. If they switch alliegances, they may take some of those with them

And they tend to vote. New Yorks 9% or so Jewish population translates to nearly 14% of the vote. My only point was that in a political context, at least on FR, it may get too much of attention as a race determinate (outside of New York, New Jersey maybe Florida) other than in a very, very close race. And I know how close Florida was.

Look at Hillary, she got around 53% of the Jewish vote vs 80% in NY for Gore. A major failure for her, and I'd suggest a major defection of democratic Jewish voters. But it was an easy election for Senator Hillary. I wouldn't want to base my hopes for California on a shift in Jewish votes, which isn't to say I don't want to see it.

46 posted on 07/26/2002 7:09:03 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: crystalk
>.. all Jewish-related threads?

Need to get your own private BB if you want to wallow in erroneous self-indulgence without public critique.

47 posted on 07/26/2002 7:19:50 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: 2sheep; Alouette; zhabotinsky; SJackson; Simcha7; Yehuda; Jeremiah Jr; crystalk
So far, all the comments I've seen regarding the evidence that the lost 10 tribes of Israel became the celts when entering Europe add up to , "I just don't believe it." While this attitude benefits the ignorant when dealing with evidence that invades their comfort zone, I don't think it benefits people that claim to be savvy enought to post their opiniions on FR.

Can you offer an alternate explanation of what happened to millions of the House of Israel and the origin of the celts with some hard evidence? When a length of red string passing in front of the eyes changes to blue, one has to conclude it is still the same string based on prima facie evidence. Hard evidence is necessary when one wants to claim that the string were switched.

Do you have any alternate interpretation that would change the meaning of the plain words of Hosea 1:10, 11? One that makes sense? If you do, it's time to offer it. Much more delay will tend to change, "I just don't believe it." into "I just don't want to believe it." And from there the position deteriorates quickly.

48 posted on 07/26/2002 8:39:07 AM PDT by William Terrell
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To: 2sheep; Alouette; zhabotinsky; SJackson; Simcha7; Yehuda; Jeremiah Jr; crystalk
And where LostTribe posts, inevitably William Terrell will not be far behind, a one man cheering section. I guess anyone can get one disciple.
49 posted on 07/26/2002 9:28:13 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: angelo
I guess anyone can get one disciple.

You might be very surprised how many of us are watching, but not saying very much. I think Lost Tribe is right on target and I've been following his posts for a long time. If that offends your superior sensibilities, well ;;;;;

50 posted on 07/26/2002 9:43:17 AM PDT by PaulKersey
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