Posted on 08/01/2002 3:27:45 PM PDT by Tomalak
Socialistic Government in the 20th Century not only replaced societal controls with those of Government, it deliberately undermined the societal values that were behind the societal controls. It was not the Libertarians who attacked morality, it was the people whom they opposed.
Take the outrageous New Deal venture that became known as the ADC--Aid To Dependent Children. It was not just an unconstitutional exercise from Washington, supposed to ease the burden of children in a single parent household. Part and parcel with the new approach, was a deliberate decision to outlaw any suggestion of stigmatization of the unwed mother--the clientele of the new program. The result is as well known as it was predictable--an exponential explosion in the American Bastardy rate.
The history of the Twentieth Century cannot be neatly systematized, of course. There were many cross-currents. But the real damage was done not by any traditional philosophic movement. All traditional societies have been under attack by Socialists of one hue or another, bent upon promoting egalitarian nonsense; with most of those proponents also promoting some version of the movement for an undifferentiated humanity. Stigmatizing people for having children out of wedlock did not fit the new Socialist norm, anymore than pride in ancestry was tolerated by the new Socialist norm.
Morality, community homogeneity, community religious sentiments, etc., are all ultimately the targets of those who want to break down any distinctions between peoples. While Libertarians may want to live and let live; they have never been those leading the charge against any community's value system. Quite the contrary.
As a Conservative seeking to preserve what is left of the American heritage, I find no problem with most of the people who label themselves "Libertarian." While some of them may occasionally embrace something ridiculous like liberal immigration, fifty years after our population reached its optimum level, they are not the ones promoting a breakdown of the American cultural identity. And most are easily persuaded that the present situation is very wrong. They are rational people, beset as are American Conservatives, by those who hate everything that America used to stand for.
William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site
'You can have an immoral people, or you can have a small state, but you can't have both.'
The article was not advocating a big state and bad people: it wanted a small state and good people. Can't you see that?
Yes, I actually understood the article. As I pointed out the author was engaging in calculated deception.
'You can have an immoral people, or you can have a small state, but you can't have both.'
This statement is utterly false:
The possible combinations are:
Small state, bad people --Modern Russia, Somalia
Small state, good people -- United States 1800's
Big State, bad people -- USSR
Big State, good people -- Modern China
Its a false dillema, people are good and bad as individuals not as groups. There are cultural environments that healthier than others but ultimately they reflect the values of the individuals who comprise the society.
How exactly do you judge if a State is good or bad. Saddam Hussain's speechs read like a Baptist sermon.
America one the "nicer" countries on Earth has killed millions of innocent people. Usually we've had good intentions. But when you're 5 years old and covered in burning Napalm, the fact that the pilot attends Bible study every Wed. doesn't help.
Conversely, we as a society want to discourage:
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." -John Adams, Oct. 11, 1798 Address to the military
LOL! So you think Somalia and today's Russia are good models for the world? Obviously you can try to have no real morals and no real state, but it will be anarchy.
If you want a working country, you can have the state to restrain people, or you can have morality.
If you choose the state, you get mega-government and very high taxes.
If you choose neither, anarchy is what you get.
If you choose morality, that is when you get a truly great country, like America in the 1800s, as you mentioned.
As for the person who thought it a "truism" that sexual attraction to kids was not a moral issue, I just hope you don't work with children.
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." - John Adams, Oct. 11, 1798 Address to the military
The article was asking if these priests were suffering from an "illness" or if they were criminals.
The Church decided to treat them as if they they had a mental disorder rather than treat them as criminals.
Szasz, as a psychiatrist, was writing an article critical of the dogma of modern psychiatry. Morality was not addressed.
This post deliberately misrepresented his views.
The Church shielded these priests which allowed them to use the Church to victimize children. Szasz is arguing for their immediate arrest.
Now is that the impression given by the quote above?
Oh yeah - being against personal irresponsibility, disaffection and alienation, sloth and laziness, immorality, promiscuity, ideology, and big government is just a "personal preference". Nothing to do with making a better, freer society.
Are you French or something, or did you believe all that postmodernism you were taught at college?
If you want to end state control, you need to reinforce self-control and moral responsibility. The article sums up my own view perfectly.
The point everyone misses is this: personal morality reduces the need for a large state, and a large state reduces the need for personal morality. Immorality breeds socialism/statism, and socialism/statism breeds immorality.
Sigh. No. Obviously you can try to have no real morals and no real state, but it will be anarchy.
Actually, there have been anarchies that had murder rates far lower than the United States. The punishments for murder were much greater as well.
If you choose the state, you get mega-government and very high taxes.
Not always. Modern Socialist times, I suppose.
If you choose morality, that is when you get a truly great country, like America in the 1800s, as you mentioned.
This is one of many possible routes.
As for the person who thought it a "truism" that sexual attraction to kids was not a moral issue, I just hope you don't work with children.
Why don't you read Szasz's article. Just because morality was not within the scope of a psychiatric article does not mean he does not have a strong moral position on the subject.
Its a pity the Catholic church doesn't have the common sense that Szasz has. I suppose they are too busy rambling on about morality.
Excellent point. I hadn't thought of it that way round.
That only proves my point. In those days, the state didn't need to crack down on such things because the American people were so moral that almost no one did them. Not now, though.
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