TWA Flight 800 Is everyone who disagrees with NTSB a "Tin-foil hat?"

8/2/02 | John Fiorentino

[JohnFiorentino]

Much has been said of those who disagree with the official line regarding the demise of TWA Flight 800.

Many of the those who defend that position use classic disinformationalist tactics to disparage anyone who dares question the status quo. Phrases such as "missile-huggers" and "tin-foil hats" permeate their criticisms.

To be sure their are indeed many wild theories, and is in every group of people, one finds a few wing-nuts.

But is EVERYONE who questions the official scenario crazy, or missile-huggers, or tin-foil hats? The answer of course is no.

Below you will find information and help in ascertaining just how "crazy" some who have questions really are.

International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW)

Analysis and Recommendations Regarding TWA Flight 800

The international Asssociation of Machinists and Aerospace Workers submitted their report to the NTSB as Parties to the investigation. As such they had access to all the information available to the NTSB and other Parties and have formed some opinions that are at odds with the official NTSB line. The Full IAMAW report is available here. http://twa800.com/iamaw/iamaw.pdf

Excerpts are available here.

http://twa800.com/iamaw/iamaw.htm

[LoneGOPinCT]

Don your tin-foil hat, missle-hugger.

(Just kidding, couldn't resist. I've got mine on.)

[bmwcyle]

After 8 years of lies in every aspect of our lives during the Clinton Administration, it is not hard to believe this was just another lie to cover up for Bill and Hill.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Having been certified, trained and worked on Boeing aircraft, being a certified Tiger Tank diver, knowing some inspectors at the NTSB and also having had a student who was aboard Navy subs in the waters around where TWA800 went down (but not at the time of the accident), I see no way it was a center tank spark, mishap, etc. It was (IMO) from an external source. But they can say what they want; let them.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Waco was just an excercise in free speech of our Government. The Clintons were on vaction at the time.

[backhoe]

John, like any thinking person I naturally have opinions, beliefs, and positions on this and other controversial subjects- but the one thing I am positive about is that we simply were not told the truth. And yes, I think this was deliberate.

-30-

backhoe

[bmwcyle]

If we could just send them on vacation for good. I know this distant planet.

[Non-Sequitur]

You want to draw criticism try and dispute those who claim unequivocally that it was a Navy missile that downed the plane. I will freely admit that I do not know what downed TWA 800 but I know from personal experience that none of the evidence is consistent with a Navy SAM. But try and point that out and you attract all sorts of attacks.

[cardinal4]

I dont buy anything coming from the IAM,but I have many doubts about what happened that night. Consider this; the 747-200 was put into service around 1970. 800 went down in 1996.How many cycles has that design flown between 70 and 96? How many cycles(Take-off and landings)has that design flown since then? Does the NTSB expect me to believe that the conditions it says caused the accident only existed on that day,never before,and never since? Is every single eyewitness on Long Island that night dumb? They all saw the same thing but were mistaken? An arcing fuel pump in a center fuel tank ignites vapor in the empty tank,and this has never happened before? All of those cycles and the designers and engineers who work on the aircraft had no inkling that this might happen??......Pull the other one.

I dont know what happened that night,but because Xlinton was occupying the White House,any official version of 800's demise is suspect. Just my opinion.

[JohnFiorentino]

"MISSILE FRAGMENT THEORY"

A safety board official testifies that evidence in the crash of TWA Flight 800 is consistent with that possibility.

Was Dr. Bernard Loeb once a "missile-hugger?"

http://www.press-enterprise.com/headlines/twa800/

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I saw that. Someone is parceling out Jupiter, no?

[RedBloodedAmerican]

The NTSB is looking for answers in the aircraft, not external answers from another source. They could have had to come up with an answer. Sure there may be chaffed wires, but that doesn't mean it is the cause. IMO.

[cardinal4]

Loebs name is familiar;wasnt he "discredited" at one time only to come back and endorse the "arcing fuel pump" grail? One of the investigators was,Im not sure if was Loeb or not.It might have been an accident,but not the way they say and not if Bill Clinton personally endorsed the fuel pump fable.

[JohnFiorentino]

Just a few more people many call "Tin-foil hats"

Admiral Thomas Moorer USN/Ret Admiral Moorer, is the former Chairman of the JointChief's of Staff.

Brig. General Ben Partin, USAF/Ret General Partin was instrumental in developing continuous rod-missile systems.

Rear Admiral Mark Hill, USN/Ret Admiral Hill, is the former Commanding Officer ofthe USS Independence and an Air Crash Investigator.

Cmdr. Bruce Valley, UNS/Ret Cmdr. Valley is a retired Naval Aviator and currently President of GlobNet, Inc.

Dr. Gregory A. Harrison, P.E. Dr. Harrison is a professional Fire Safety Enginneer with a Phd. in Safety Engineering. He has extensive experience in fire investigations, flammable liquids and explosions. Dr. Harrison is court qualified to testify on forensics in Md/VA/DC/NJ/PA/LA/TX and FLA.

[KneelBeforeZod]

;o)

[It'salmosttolate]

But those are all people who were in gob't, how can we believe them?

Remember, the Pentagon told US the they were not going to tell US the truth about 5 months ago in a press conference. Then in about 3 or 4 days they said they were going to tell US the truth.

I believe them in both press conferences, don't you, I mean don't . I don't, do you?

[KneelBeforeZod]

people who were not called tin foil hats...American Airline pilots who want to ground the Airbus 300 series. (and were able to do so when the business got slow enough)

[ghostrider]

Anyone who believes anything of importance from anyone, without researching it for themselves, must have a tin foil brain. This is the bill clinton era - not the George Washington era. In situations involving the NTSB, you have to go with your gut instincts. My gut instinct says that numerous combat experienced pilots reporting a missle attack are probably more accurate than a politically controlled, government paycheck/pension focused, bureacrat trying to peddle his version of what the combat veteran thought he/she saw.

[TiaS]

I would like to remind you that the Clinton Administration was not exactly in bed with the military. Do you recall a remark by Senator Jesse Helms when he said, because of President Clinton's relationship/or lack thereof, with the military, it would not be safe for him to come to North Carolina. Guess that would include the US Navy who was reported to have been involved in military exercises in the area.

Regarding Waco and the Clinton administration. Do you realize how many powerful Republicans were living, or from Texas at the time of the incident, and how as, interested private citizens, could have possibly prevented that tragedy as it was unfolding on their door step. Begin with George Bush, Sr., and Junior, James Baker, FBI Director, William Sessions whom Attorney General Janet Reno had to practically chase out of Washington, DC with a rolling pin, and others too numerous to mention. Now, throw in the trigger happy military industrial complex of both Bush administrations, the ones who actually led the attack on Waco, and reconsider who is responsible for all those deaths.

[KneelBeforeZod]

"I did not have sex with that woman...Miss Lewinsky"

"There are no troops in Cambodia"

"There are no spy missions over China"

[Amore]

Hey, RBA! Long time, no see!

[Big Guy and Rusty 99]

"Daddy, why do we have to dress up like hershey's kisses for halloween again?"

[KneelBeforeZod]

we should ask certain Russian pilots about the effects of missiles on 747s...

or sadly, a certain Navy captain about Airbus planes...

[cardinal4]

I live in St. Louis. Home of the former TWA so its not hard for me to sympathetic towards the airline. In addition, my job as an aircraft dispatcher requires me to know aircraft systems. I just dont understand the sequence of events. NTSB said the hot temps on the ground caused the remaining fuel in the center tank to vaporize. But climbing to FL 310, the Outside air temp cools considerably; the tropospheric lapse rate in the standard atmosphere is 2 degs.C per 1000 ft. It stands to reason that the vapor would have condensed. Plus, a catastrophic explosion in flight over water still left enough explosive trace material found in a bottle of nitro pills to be ruled out as the cause! But they cant find a piece of the fuel tank to determine wheather fuel had condensed or not?? Its just my opinion, but the country is fairly forgiving, if the Navy did it,and admitted it,it wouldnt be largely forgotten by now. And if Xlintoon had a hand in it...well the media and the voters have already showed a willingness to condone the 'toons antics.

[willyone]

The student who claims to have been in the waters where this happened is either a liar or confused. Maybe if he was on subs back in the diesel boat days they went in there. No nuke will go in there. The water is too shallow. You have all read too many Clancey books. The nearest nuke boats come to this area is eighty miles away when transiting from New London to the edge of the continental shelf to dive.

[ghostrider]

And does anyone think that the government has ever told the truth about the JFK assination (locked from public view for 40 years)or the JFK, Jr plane crash, Whitewater, Neal Bush's saving & loan bust, the clinton files locked from public view...on & on. Most Americans don't care about anything other than the next moment's pleasure (peons), the politicians know it, so we get treated as the peons we are by the monarchs who see no value in conversing with serfs.

[verity]

Beat the dead horse drum slowly!

[ChadGore]

You made a seperate thread for THIS ?

[cardinal4]

The nearest nuke boats come to this area is eighty miles away when transiting from New London to the edge of the continental shelf to dive.

Nuke Boats are the only ones with SAMs?

[ivanhoe116]

if the Navy did it,and admitted it,it wouldnt be largely forgotten by now

And, who builds a memorial to an airplane accident?

[sheik yerbouty]

I hope its further away than Uranus. The next star system might be better.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Hey, how goes it?! Man, I am swamped by mosquitoes over here! How about where you're at?

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I dont know if he was on a nuke sub. All I know is he was on subs that would lock on targets in practice flying out of the airport.

[Amore]

I'm indoors today and not going out, so I'm fine. As a native Floridian, I have long hated mosquitoes, though they've always loved me. But I have come to view mosquitoes much more benevolently, since the latest ant attack upon me (25 bites over a week ago and still present!) Granted, I was kneeling on their anthill at the time and they probably were not happy with me, but I was otherwise occupied -- what with wrestling with the spare tire at the bottom of my trunk, after hitting and dragging along with me a large chunk of rebar on I-4.

[PatrioticAmerican]

I put the CIA and FBI explanation of Flight 800 in the same category as JFK magic bullet theory: The Americans are dumb enough to believe ANYTHING the government tells them.

[norton]

What I do not understand is that no one has seriously attempted to link 800 to 9/11: that's the only reasonably close match in the pile.

Can't accept the "navy did it" theory simply because it would be impossible to keep an entire ship's crew quiet over the passing years.

The fuel tank story is absurd, end of argument.

The one overriding fact of the event is that literally no one believes anything our government says that they did not already believe before the g'mnt said it. That's not entirely new but WJC certainly made it a fact of life for most of the population - including those who gagged-up excuses for all of his sins and crimes.

And, to repeat; once the government has lied to you, it will never retract that lie. Changing administrations will not lift the shroud from their predecessor's cover-up.

As to Waco and someone's comments about republicans living in Texas - I have relatives in occupied South Texas and last time I posed the question I got the same blank stare about why literally no one in Texas rose to stop federalized murder in their back yard.

[honway]

To be sure their are indeed many wild theories, and is in every group of people, one finds a few wing-nuts.

But is EVERYONE who questions the official scenario crazy, or missile-huggers, or tin-foil hats? The answer of course is no.

I see this often. When someone applies their own reasoning ability to a set of known facts and reaches a conclusion contrary to the official mainsteam version, the individual becomes overwhelmed with a need to justify their common sense to the mainsteam crowd. Often, there is also a requirement to insult individuals that reached similiar conclusions, only earlier.

You do not need to apologize for rejecting the NTSB postion that after the fuselage forward of the wings separated from the aircraft, the aft portion continued a climb and fooled hundreds of witnesses. Applying basic aerodynamics, such an occurence is impossible.

Likewise there is no need to insult the wing-nuts that have arrived at the same conclusion you have.

If it is an consulation, your fear of the group that routinely throws out words like "tin foil" is a very common phenomenon.

[eno_]

What about those fairly exotic ceramic balls they found in some victims? Any idea what kind of SAM might use that in a warhead? SwRI holds the patent on that stuff, BTW.

[eno_]

Yo! Both of you! Keep the nuke-powered subs and nuke-armed subs straight!

[Non-Sequitur]

I'm not familiar with the story about the ceramics found in bodies so I can't help you there.

[eno_]

Someone got hold of a test report on 5mm ceramic spheres containing aluminum and titanium and were a translucent orange in color. They were recovered from victims' bodies.

The nearest mention of ceramic made of the same stuff I could find was in a reference to a patent granted to SwRI, which is a DoD-funded think tank like MITRE and others of the same nature. The summary of the patent specifically mentions that the ceramic is tough stuff.

Anyway, this seems to me to be the closest thing to publicly available info that could ID the weapon used, not that that would neccessarily be proof of who fired it, though I don't think Al Quaida could have stolen a Standard missile, if that's what it turns out to be. Not much to hang one's hat on, but better than a bloody glove in the bushes, IMHO.

[First_Salute]

See (excerpts): An Analysis of the Central Fuel Tank Explosion of TWA Flight 800

Fuel-Air Ratio

Fuel vapor is the most dangerous element in a fuel tank because it combusts easily. The fuel-air ratio in an enclosed environment, for a given fuel, is a good indicator of how easily an explosion can occur. The fuel-air ratio increases as fuel evaporates and mixes with the surrounding air. The two key factors that affect the fuel-air ratio in a closed environment are temperature and pressure.

The temperature inside the central fuel tank of TWA Flight 800 was unusually high, and probably played a significant role in the explosion. When fuel is heated, a greater portion of it exists as vapor, thus increasing the fuel-air ratio. NTSB officials, who originally thought that the temperature in the central fuel tank was 36?C (97?F), now think that the temperature was at least as high as 46?C (115?F) [NTSB d, 1997] and maybe as high as 53?C (127?F) [McKenna, 1997b]. Boeing has performed simulations that show that on a 27?C (81?F) day, fuel vapors in the central fuel tank of a 747 are in an explosive state for 4.5 of the 6 hours on a typical flight [Adcock, 1998].

There are several reasons why the temperature in the central fuel tank was so high. First, after arriving from Athens, the plane sat on the ground for about four hours before departing for Paris. Due to the summer heat, the planeís air conditioners were left running for this period [Tischler, 1998], which is unusually long. Ironically, the air conditioners warm the central fuel tank, as they are located directly below it and do not blow cool air into it (see figure 3). Secondly, since there was so little fuel in the central fuel tank, less energy was required to heat it. The tank would have heated more slowly if it had been full. The NTSB performed tests to compare temperatures in the central fuel tank during flight at 13,800 ft. with 50 gallons of gas (the amount in Flight 800) and with 12,000 gallons (almost full). The results of this test (see figure 4) clearly indicate that the contents of the tank heat more when there is less fuel present ...

In addition to temperature, pressure (or altitude) affects the fuel-air ratio. As altitude increases, more fuel evaporates due to decreasing ambient pressure. Therefore, the fuel-air ratio increases with increasing altitude. A graph representing the relationship between the minimum temperature needed for an ignition of Jet A fuel and altitude is shown in Figure 5. As this chart illustrates, the minimum temperature needed to ignite the fuel decreases as the altitude increases. The minimum flammability temperature at 13,800 ft. is about 26?C (79?F), well below the reported temperature of 46?C (115?F) in the central fuel tank of TWA Flight 800 ...

Until recently, a key point that has been neglected is that the minimum ignition energy needed to ignite the fuel also decreases with increasing temperature. Researchers at California Institute of Technology, performing tests for the NTSB, found that by increasing the temperature in a fuel tank from 38?C (100?F) to 60?C (140?F), the ignition energy required is reduced by a factor of 100,000 [Wilkinson, 1997]. This exponential relationship means at higher temperatures, a very weak spark will cause ignition. In other words, the fuel-air ratio, temperature, pressure, and ignition energy combined on Flight 800 to create a unique environment highly conducive to explosion ...

[First_Salute]

See: 1/98 M. E. Marketplace: Tech Focus

Ceratec B.v. in Geldermalsen, the Netherlands, has developed new high-performance ceramic ball bearings and bearing races. Ceratec bearings are produced from titanium and carbon nitride feedstocks using powder metal technology. The resulting full-density hybrid metal/ceramic TiCN components, which can be fabricated up to 12 inches in diameter, are approximately twice as hard as chrome steel, and weigh about 40 percent less.

High-performance Ceratec ball bearings and races are made from titanium and carbon nitride feedstocks through powder metal technology.

The TiCN material offers high heat resistance for dimensional stability above 230°C. The manufacturer noted that the product's nonceramic bearing-retainer material may affect operation at extreme temperatures.

The improved characteristics of this new ceramic material make it affordable for small-quantity applications involving maximum abuse and minimum maintenance for machine tool spindles, aerospace products, vacuum pumps, chemical equipment, gearing, mining equipment, and high-end motor and pump applications.

Exclusive U.S. marketing rights for Ceratec bearings have been granted to Fischer Trading Inc. in Middlefield, Conn.

[Asmodeus]

Tinfoil hats - "conspiracy theorists"

[Free the USA]

Index Bump

[Asmodeus]

"The Americans are dumb enough to believe ANYTHING the government tells them."

You are of not an American, of course.

[eno_]

Good info, but the date on the announcement would indicate this stuff was not used in building a 747 of the TWA800 vintage. And they don't look transclucent, nor orange. Also, the actual scale-model tests NEVER reproduced an explosion. The best they could come up with was various observations of flame-fronts propagating on liquid fuel, and a theory that pressure from combustion gasses MIGHT have ruptured the tank, but, again, never reproduced in the scale model tests. They should have hired the exploding SUV people from 60 Minutes. Also, consider the odds of several passengers getting ball bearings that had been contained in a verystrong race (no sign of the race, either) embedded in them. The energy to rip the bearing assembly apart would do a number on the integrtity of those bodies, too. Occams razor cuts in the direction of shrapnel.

[JohnFiorentino]

Here's the information on the spheres from my other article.....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/713899/posts