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Greek Complicity in Serb Wars
IWPR ^ | 6 August, 2002 | Takis Michas

Posted on 08/06/2002 4:45:18 PM PDT by Hoplite

There's growing evidence that Greece helped to lubricate Milosevic's war machine

By Takis Michas in Athens

As Greece prepares to take on the mantle of the European Union presidency in January 2003, the time has come for Athens to examine the role it played in aiding the regimes of former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic and his Bosnian Serb associates Radovan Karadic and Ratko Mladic.

Besides a general failure to confront the scale of war crimes perpetrated by Bosnian Serb and Serbian forces during the Nineties, there's mounting evidence of Greek complicity in Yugoslav sanction-busting during the conflicts.

A recent report published by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, ICTY, covering the period 1994-2000, presents damning evidence of Greek and Cypriot involvement in the Balkan wars.

According to the report, both provided the pillars on which the Belgrade regime constructed an international financial structure to sidestep UN sanctions in operation between 1991 and 2000. The Hague investigation has revealed that transactions in excess of 1.5 billion German marks passed through this network.

Greek banking and government officials frustrated ICTY efforts to investigate the matter throughout the Nineties. For example, although the authorities originally agreed to Chief Prosecutor Carla del Ponte's probe, they excluded the central bank from follow-up enquiries in autumn 2001. The report also claimed that its investigators did not receive all the information they had asked of Athens.

In a well-publicised incident, a Greek court of appeals prosecutor refused to cooperate with the ICTY, saying he had "no intention of becoming a detective for The Hague".

The tribunal investigation concluded that eight Yugoslav "front" companies had been operating through the Popular Bank of Cyprus, the Hellenic Bank, the European Popular Bank of Cyprus and a Greek subsidiary of the Popular Bank. Some money passing through these accounts, it said, was spent on arms deals with suppliers from the United States, Russia and Israel.

When asked why money had been taken to Cyprus, former Milosevic customs chief Mikhail Kertes said, "Probably because there was a way out to the world from there."

The funds passing through the accounts are said to have come from the Yugoslav Federal Customs Administration, FCAY. They were found to have transferred large sums to a branch of Beogradska Bank in Cyprus and other Greek and Cypriot banks. The report revealed that representatives from the Beogradska Bank managed the accounts of the front companies and arranged for the transfer of funds to third parties, including arms dealers. In several cases the persons named as directors of the trading companies are said to have had no knowledge of these transactions.

"A financial structure was designed, implemented and maintained to provide funding, equipment and supplies for the army of the former Yugoslavia and the special forces of the interior ministry," the ICTY report said.

Evidence of more direct involvement in the Bosnian conflict is also mounting. Arms shipments to Bosnian Serb forces, the leaking of NATO military intelligence to General Ratko Mladic's Bosnian Serb forces and the presence of Greek paramilitaries among the latter during the Srebrenica campaign are all issues of concern.

The 7,000-page report by the Dutch authorities into the 1995 Srebrenica massacres - publication of which led to the resignation of the government - revealed that large shipments of weapons were transferred from Greece to Mladic's army in 1994 and 1995. Alleged arms consignments in the years immediately before and after could not be verified. Professor Cees Wiebes of Amsterdam University compiled the section of the report dealing with the involvement of foreign secret agencies and governments in the Bosnian conflict. It took five years to write, during which time the professor enjoyed unrestricted access to the Dutch intelligence community and various foreign and UN archives, interviewing more than 90 intelligence officials.

"Lots of weapons were transferred from Greece to the Montenegrin port of Bar, from where they would find their way to the Bosnian Serb army," Wiebes said. The weapons consisted mostly of light arms and ammunition.

At the same time, there are strong indications that Greece was leaking NATO intelligence to Mladic, especially during the period of alliance air strikes on Bosnian Serb forces in August-September 1995. "NATO officials became very reluctant to share intelligence with the Greeks due to fears over leaks to the Bosnian Serbs, and at some point they simply stopped doing so," Wiebes wrote.

In early 1994, Greece incurred the wrath of its European allies by voting against air strikes on Bosnian Serb positions. The country refused to allow NATO to use its air bases in Preveza on the Ionian Sea and declined to provide troops for the UN peacekeeping force in Bosnia.

Meanwhile, a contingent of Greek paramilitaries was formed in March 1995 at Mladic's request. The Greek Volunteer Guard, GVG, as it was known, rapidly became a regular fighting unit with its own insignia - a white double-headed eagle on a black background. In September 1995, four of its members received the White Eagle medal of honour from Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic.

The GVG had around 100 soldiers and was based in Vlasenica near Tuzla. Guard spokesman George Mouratidis said the unit was fully integrated into the army of Republika Srpska and was led by Serb officers.

From talking to veterans of the unit, it appears these soldiers were not simply mercenaries. Most cited religion as their main reason for enlisting.

"I am Orthodox and must help my Serb brethren against the Muslims," said Vagelis Koutakos in an interview at the time. His colleague Spiro Tzanopoulos claimed, "The Vatican, the Zionists, the Germans and the Americans conspire against the Orthodox nations. Their next target after Serbia will be Greece."

The GVG's part in the assault on Srebrenica was reported in the media at home and abroad, and the Dutch government's report describes how the unit hoisted the Greek flag in the town after the takeover. It also cited video footage of the event and excerpts taken from intercepted Bosnian Serb army telephone conversations provided by Bosnian intelligence services.

"One of the intercepted messages was from General Mladic, who asked for the Greek flag to be hoisted in the city," said Wiebes.

The presence of the Greek paramilitaries in Srebrenica appeared to be welcomed by many back home, where their antics were widely reported. The public seemed mesmerised by tales of hardship and danger, their young men fighting the "insidious" Muslims and the bravery of their Serb "brethren". When the Ethnos newspaper ran a two-page spread in August 1995 on the "heroic" exploits of the GVG in Srebrenica, the response was overwhelming. The paper's phone lines were jammed by youths desperate for information on the force.

Despite the widespread media reports, the authorities consistently ignored the open and public recruitment of paramilitaries in Greece and denied that Greek nationals were fighting in Bosnia.

The efforts to lend economic and military aid stemmed from Athens' official policy. Identification of Greece with Milosevic's policies in Belgrade and those of Karadzic in Pale was total and unconditional.

Before, during and after its 1994 presidency of the EU, Greece was the only country to support claims that Serb forces had entered Bosnian territory in response to provocation. In December 1994, after talks with Milosevic in Athens, Papandreou reiterated there was little difference between the Serbian and Greek positions on the Bosnian situation. Athens' criticism of the violence unfolding in Bosnia was almost exclusively directed against NATO air strikes. Even as late as April 1994, when human rights violations by Bosnian Serb forces had been established beyond any reasonable doubt, the then Greek premier Andreas Papandreou blamed only NATO.

"Greece showed indifference to Serb crimes and failed to condemn the merciless bombing of civilian populations [in Vukovar and Sarajevo] or the practice of ethnic cleansing, simply because those acts happened to be committed by Bosnian Serbs," said Alexis Heraclides, now a senior lecturer at Panteion University in Athens, but at the time an official in the Greek foreign ministry.

That indifference also resonated through the Greek media. The assault on Srebrenica was reported by some in Greece as an example of the "heroic advance of Serb forces". The involvement of Bosnian Serb forces in the massacres that followed the seizure of the town was underplayed. To this day, not one of Greece's ten or more television stations has broadcast a documentary on these events.

A few days after the ICTY announced its indictments against Mladic and Karadzic, the Greek-Serb Friendship Society claimed to have collected over two million signatures on a petition calling on the tribunal to drop the charges.

"We collected signatures everywhere," said society treasurer Lykourgos Chazakos. "In factories, offices and on the streets, the reaction was overwhelming. We met representatives from all political parties, who showed tremendous understanding. The people at the ministry of foreign affairs were especially encouraging."

The Greek Orthodox Church was one of the staunchest supporters of Milosevic's policy. It invited Karadzic to a rally in his honour at Piraeus in 1993, which was attended by leading politicians from all political parties and prominent trade unions.

In a 1994 comment, Papandreou said the Balkan wars had "brought to the surface the resonance of Orthodox ties" between Athens, Sofia and Belgrade.

Renowned literary critic Zoran Mutic, famed for his translations of Ancient Greek classics into Serbo-Croat, is bewildered by the extent of support for the Bosnian Serbs.

"When I hear so many journalists, academics, intellectuals and politicians expressing admiration for Karadzic, what can I say? How can they consider him a hero when he bombed hospitals and sent snipers to kill children on the streets?" he asked.

Another effect of this backing for the Bosnian Serb cause was the failure to acknowledge - let alone lend support to - the hard-pressed Serbian opposition parties and non-government media.

Sasa Mircovic of B-92 said the Greek government refused to recognise the role of independent media in Serbia. "They did not know and they did not want to know what was happening in our country," he told IWPR.

Efforts were even made to undermine the Serbian opposition. In the early Nineties, a Greek weekly, closely linked to the foreign ministry, published EC documents listing Serbian opposition organisations in receipt of funds from Brussels.

"This act constituted one of the most serious and dangerous attempts at undermining the efforts of the Serb opposition by presenting its members as being in the payroll of foreign powers," said Mircovic.

A few years before the death in 1997 of prominent left-wing thinker Corenliums Castoriadis, he told how Serb war crimes were being "covered up" in Greece through a campaign of misinformation and lies.

"In my eyes," he said, "Greek politicians, journalists, people who work in the media and the others responsible for this campaign of disinformation are moral accomplices in the cover-up of Serb crimes in Croatia and Bosnia."

Greek foreign office officials have repeatedly denounced the ICTY as partial and anti-Serb. In 1996, then foreign minister Theodor Pangalos asked the tribunal to "stop demonising the Serbs". Again in 1998, during a visit by then Bosnian Serb prime minister, Milorad Dodik, to Athens, Pangalos said the tribunal had "fallen under political influence".

The country's judicial system has been equally unwilling to investigate allegations of serious breaches of international law by Greek nationals and government officials. "In any European country with respect for the rule of law such serious allegations would immediately cause the intervention of the public prosecutor's office," said former trade and industry minister Andreas Andrianopoulos.

Greek premier Costas Simitis and his government have so far failed to condemn the policies of previous administrations. Nor have the authorities shown the slightest willingness to set up a parliamentary investigation into the allegations of complicity in war crimes in Bosnia. Instead, they persist with staunch denials of any wrongdoing.

Last summer, Greek EU commissioner Anna Diamantopoulou told an Athens conference a bright future awaited Greece in Europe. When asked if this future would include those politicians and institutions implicated in the Bosnian, Croatian and Kosovar atrocities, Diamantopoulou said only, "History has proven that Greek policies were correct".

Takis Michas writes for the Greek daily Eleftherotypia. His book "Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic's Serbia" was published in May by Texas A&M University Press.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkans; campaignfinance; greece; serbia; yugoslavia
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To: Ungrateful
The wars lasted a long time, and many of Yugoslavia's armaments factories were in territories no longer under control of Belgrade or it's satellites by 1992 - it's my understanding that Tito concentrated armaments factories in Bosnia, due to it's remoteness and mountainous terrain, and it's advantages given the guerilla war he planned for if Yugoslavia were invaded.

It bears checking, but that's my impression from what I've read over the years.

So while I don't have anything concrete right now, my understanding of the situation doesn't rule out Serbia's wanting/needing to procure weapons/munitions from the international market, and Greece had both the motive (orthodox fraternity) and opportunity (location) to benefit from Serbia's needs.

51 posted on 08/08/2002 5:42:10 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: duckln
Your given examples supporting your position are unassailable - why do I even bother reading IWPR?
52 posted on 08/08/2002 5:43:59 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; pythagorean
But OBL was there wasn't he? Bosnia and Albanian-Kosovo-Tetovo, and in a much larger major capacity than you can cop too. I did read reports that Iran is harboring elements of al-Qaida, no? Those reports must also be mistaken. I will spare you the pain I cause you by posting a link to that report.

The work on FreeRepublic by men like Pericles and others like him I think has had a major impact on the Balkan policy.

53 posted on 08/08/2002 9:44:57 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Hoplite
I commend you on your astute awakening in the recognition of the Mujas presence in BiH. Though, why were "orders" given to give them 100% clearance in their leeways even after the SFOR presence?

Much more needs to be investigated from your end, Hoplite.

Not my presumed area of expertise or interest, but that's my take on the matter. 47 posted on 8/8/02 8:07 PM Eastern by Hoplite Which is your area of expertise?

54 posted on 08/09/2002 7:41:20 AM PDT by smokegenerator
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

To: Destro
The reports you refer to are of recent origin - Iran and the late powers-that-were in Afghanistan shared a mutual hostility which resulted in the murder of Iranian diplomats in the late '90's.

Unfortunately for your efforts, knowledge such as that requires something more than the kiddie pool depth of understanding that you handicap yourself with, so thanks for sparing me from a longer winded response.

And stroke your ego in front of a mirror, kid.
Not on FR.

56 posted on 08/09/2002 2:53:39 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; *balkans
Recent vintage indeed.

Stroke these excerpts:

Terror Alliance Has U.S. Worried

The new collaboration illustrates what analysts say is an evolving pattern of decentralized alliances between terrorist groups and cells that share enough of the same goals to find common ground: crippling the United States, and forcing the U.S. military out of the Middle East and Israel out of Palestinian territory.

"There's a convergence of objectives," said Steven Simon, a former National Security Council terrorism expert. "There's something in the zeitgeist that is pretty well established now."

Although cooperation between al Qaeda and Hezbollah may have been going on at some level for years, the U.S. war against al Qaeda has hastened and deepened the relationship.

The more recent relationship between Hezbollah and al Qaeda first surfaced publicly in testimony in October 2000 by Ali Mohamed, a former U.S. Green Beret who pleaded guilty to conspiring with bin Laden to bomb U.S. embassies in Africa.

He testified to having provided security for a meeting in Sudan "between al Qaeda . . . and Iran and Hezbollah . . . between Mughniyah, Hezbollah's chief, and bin Laden." Hezbollah, he testified, provided explosives training to al Qaeda while Iran "used Hezbollah to supply explosives that were disguised to look like rocks."

Last week, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld accused Iran of sheltering al Qaeda members fleeing Afghanistan. "Iran has served as a haven for some terrorists leaving Afghanistan," he said.

European and U.S. intelligence operatives on the ground in Africa and Asia said they have been trying to convince headquarters of the new alliances but have been rebuffed.

"We have been screaming at them for more than a year now, and more since September 11th, that these guys all work together," an overseas operative said. "What we keep hearing back is that it can't be because al Qaeda doesn't work that way. That is [expletive]. Here, on the ground, these guys all work together as long as they are Muslims. There is no other division that matters."

-----

Hoplite facts of there not being an alliance between Shi'ite and Sunni terrorists are [expletive].

Is that Hoplite drowning in my kiddie pool of knowledge?

57 posted on 08/09/2002 4:40:27 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Destro
Recent, boy.

You are trying to prove a link between Al Quaeda and either the Bosnians or the KLA.

Get back to work.

58 posted on 08/09/2002 4:50:16 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; *balkans
No work at all! It is great fun!

The KLA trained some of its fighters in al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, the Sudan and Alija Izetbegovic's Bosnia.

Shall I take mercy on you and drain some of the water from the kiddie pool or shall I cause you pain and link the FBI's report on the KLA link to al Qaeda?

59 posted on 08/09/2002 5:01:55 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Hoplite; Destro
Agree with Hoplite that "Iran was the prime mover during the Bosnian war when foreign fighters were concerned, they made up the bulk of the mujahadeen" and that Bin Laden - Al Qaeda played a militarily peripheral role. Agree that there is enmity between Iran - Al Qaeda. The relations between Shia - Sunni and those among various groups and countries of the same sect are extremely complex. The fact remains that despite their enmity to other muslim groups, Bin Laden & Co. were active in Bosnia during the war and, unlike the Iranians who left, have continued to use Bosnia as haven and sanctuary for their terrorist activities.

Islamists (but I don't know from which group) are believed to be the perpetrators behind the Sarajevo markets explosions in 1994 and 1995. Ballistic investigations by the UN ruled out Serbian shelling as a cause of the explosions, but the Serbs were blamed and bombed anyway in 1995, with the explosion serving as a fraudulent pretext. It is time that this and other countless crimes perpetrated by the islamist regime and its allies (including Clinton, Albright and others in NATO who bombed and killed Bosnian Serb civilians as "collateral damage") are exposed and brought to justice. The selective demonization of the Serbs in the western press (including the contemptible IWPR) and western political elites must stop. It is a monumental crime against historical truth.

60 posted on 08/09/2002 5:39:55 PM PDT by pythagorean
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Comment #61 Removed by Moderator

To: crazydogz; pythagorean; Hoplite
I have never said that al-Qaeda was the major mover and shaker in Bosnia. Al-Qaeda was a go to group you hired out when you needed work done. I would say al-Qaeda went rogue in Europe and on the USA and went beyond its contracted role.

The Bosnians are held accountable for allowing al-Qeada to set up bases and use Bosnia as the majot hub for its operations in the West, including the 9/11 caper.

Also accountable are the Western leaders who allowed these Islamists into the Balkans that prolonged the war and Western leaders who did nothing as al-Qaeda organized and trained under the nose of thousands of heavily armed NATO troops.

Hell even if al-Qaeda had no role in the Balkans you can onlt hig five the Greeks for helping the Serbs while the US of A (under Clinton) was allowing Iranians(!!) and Arabs to swarm into Bosnia and the Balkans.

62 posted on 08/10/2002 12:14:53 AM PDT by Destro
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To: gitmogrunt
The West got it's "thank you" card from the KLA's number one allie, AL Qaeda, air mail delivery, and the west still doesn't get it.

Oh our government will get it when a nuclear bomb goes off in one of our cities.
63 posted on 08/10/2002 12:23:56 AM PDT by Brush_Your_Teeth
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To: Destro
Great fun huh?

How many of the KLA's fighters were trained by the KLA? We have one documented case of the Australian kid, and I leave it to you to back up your quote (which comes from the author of the article linked, not another source), and compare your findings with the overall strength of the KLA so as to draw a picture of how deep this involvement runs.

Get to work - and while you're at it, you can bring any proof to the table to back up your 9/11 claims, which the FBI report you reference refutes.

Speaking of the FBI report, had you learned to actually read, you'd have noted that I linked to and commented on it in my post #48, but then I suppose I shouldn't expect too much from you - should I.

Hell even if al-Qaeda had no role in the Balkans

No backing down, Destro, you've placed your bets and you can only fold or up the ante now - I'm calling your bluff.

64 posted on 08/11/2002 3:50:51 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: pythagorean
have continued to use Bosnia as haven and sanctuary for their terrorist activities.

I refer you to the aforementioned FBI report, which downplays the role of Al Quaeda in Bosnia.

And Radovan Karadzic is responsible for attempting to pin the blame of the various shelling related mass casualty episodes upon the residents of Sarajevo - somehow in his mind the expenditure of over 1 million artillery and mortar rounds can be conveniently forgotten when one of them actually achieves the purpose of those either pulling the lanyards or dropping the rounds into the tubes.

Your historical truth is that Karadzic out Ustashed the Croats in Bosnia in the 1990's. You might as well try to rehabilitate history's other murderous freaks while you're at it, 'cause you'll get no traction on this anywhere that the facts are known.

And I quote, from Sell's book referenced by Destro...

This time, however, there was little question about the perpetrators. By the next day, UN forces in Sarajevo had "concluded beyond a doubt" that the mortars were fired from Serb territory. The UN investigation, briefed to the Security Council on 13 September, was based on analysis of the impact site by teams from several countries, observations of UN soldiers on duty at the time of the incident, and data from a British artillery tracking radar unit that had been installed in an old Turkish fort overlooking the city after the February 1994 incident. Analysis of the impact craters and the observations of the UN soldiers showed that the five mortar rounds came from the southwest of the city, while data from the British radar indicated that they were fired from a range of 1,550 to 3,500 meters. Since the distance from the impact site to the confrontation line between Bosnian and Serb forces in that direction was 1,050 meters, it was obvious that they had originated within Serb lines. UN investigators also found a tail fin from a 120mm mortar whose design matched those used by the Bosnian Serbs near the impact point of the round that caused most of the casualties
pp 246-7, Sell, Slobodan Milosevic and the Destruction of Yugoslavia

The make isn't conclusive, the telemetry data is.

65 posted on 08/11/2002 4:09:16 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; pythagorean
Cut and dried is it Hoplite? A quote from the rabit anti-Serb Sells close the argument???
http://call.army.mil/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/bosnia2.htm

...the two mortar attacks in Sarajevo's Markale Market Square on February 5, 1994 and August 28, 1995. These attacks snuffed the lives of 68 and 37 unsuspecting people, respectively, and served as the catalyst for NATO retribution from the air in both cases. However, who must shoulder the responsibility for the mean streets of Sarajevo? Both the mortar attacks and the sniping incidents require closer examination.

In an investigative report published in the October 2, 1995 edition of The Nation, David Binder penned a most fascinating and thorough summary of the inconsistencies associated with these two mortar attacks. While stating that the UN "sticks by the conclusions of its inquiry" and blames the Serbs - at least in the second incident - the author nevertheless persuasively enumerated the factors which indicated that the BSA was not responsible.

Binder also notes support for his arguments from some American and Canadian specialists as well as (Russian) Colonel Andrei Demurenko, the Chief of Staff of the Sector Sarajevo peacekeeping unit. (According to an article in The Sunday Times (London), British and French crater analysis teams supported these same conclusions but were overruled by the UN.) No need exists to rehash all of his convincing arguments here, but primarily, they include suspicions about the firing distance, "anomalies with the (mortar) fuse," fields of observation, and trajectory difficulties.7

7
David Binder, The Nation, Oct 2, 1995, p.336. Mr. Binder's article concentrates primarily on the second mortar attack, but the technical factors which he notes apply equally to the first incident. Additionally, some very tough questions remain unanswered from the more devastating Feb 1994 episode. These include: Why were people herded into the area minutes before the attack?; How could a government which consistently justifies its inability to abide by short ceasefires on inadequate communications miraculously notify the press and simultaneously dispatch ambulances to the scene within minutes?; and Why did the tail fin of the mortar shell inexplicably disappear shortly after the attack? (Prior to capturing some BSA stocks during subsequent fighting, the Bosniac government was forced to handmake its mortar and artillery shells. This process meant that every tail fin was distinctive and would have provided conclusive evidence. Interestingly enough, when the initial photos of the second attack were broadcast, someone made certain that a mortar tail fin was prominently displayed in the panoramic shot.) Also see Hugh McManners, The Sunday Times (London), Oct 1, 1995.

VRN

66 posted on 08/12/2002 6:59:15 AM PDT by Voronin
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To: Voronin; Hoplite
Why do they assume the shelling came from the Serb sector? Much like the "bread-line shelling", where the photog's were dress-right-dress for the perfect photo op?

How about them blaming the Serbs for the Muslims placing their Arty pieces inside the Sarajevo Hospital?

Or better yet, blaming the Serbs for going into Gorazde to blow up the water tower to prevent the Musli's from poisoning the water treatment tower for the entire Eastern Bosna?

67 posted on 08/12/2002 7:41:53 AM PDT by smokegenerator
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To: smokegenerator
I found a piece by an journalist called Mark Danner who has his own 'interesting' theory on one of the mortar incidents. Basically he says that the mortar was aimed at the hospital but fell short. We know that mortars are 'area weapons' and are not designed to be pinpoint. Normal technique is to 'walk' the mortars to the target, usually needing 3+ shots to get the range right. The other argument why there was not several 'walking' craters is that the position and the trajectory were already well know - this ignores factors like temperature, windspeed, aerodynamic performance and that the mortar position would have to be identical. Basically, it's OK for Izetbegovic to butcher his own people for the lap dog western media. There is plenty of evidence (mainly from ex SFOR officers)of the Bosniac authorities stopping repairs or cutting off their own water and electricity for propaganda.

VRN

68 posted on 08/12/2002 9:00:44 AM PDT by Voronin
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To: Hoplite
Come off it, Hoppie! Why do you have to insult our Greek friends using disinformation from the Soros-funded IWPR, no less?

Greeks and Greek-Americans who supported the Serbs deserve to be COMMENDED, not condemned!!!! Instead of spreading muslim and New World Order lies and demonizing the Serbs, they called them brothers and supported them and spoke well of them, just as our Lord commanded us on the night of the Last Supper. It is the majority of us "mainline" Christians, who substituted liberal-multicultural "morality" for our Lord's command, and ended up supporting muslim supremacist against Christians, who should be ashamed!!!

Now these same muslim supremacists have turned on America!! That includes the "poor, victimized", "Bosnian" muslims, who have turned their enclave into a base for all sorts of terrorism, money-laundering, funneling of illegal muslim "immigrants" into Western Europe, and other types of subversion, just as Izetbegovic planned from the beginning.

Don't lie to us that there is "no evidence" of al Qaeda involvement in "Bosnia"!!!! There is AMPLE EVIDENCE of such involvement, some of which was posted right here on FR. For example, there were the "Bosnian"-based Algerians who snuck into the US at the end of 1999, attepting to give us a "Y2K surprise"!

Support for the islamic entity in Bosnia is a discredited sham!!!!

69 posted on 08/12/2002 8:35:07 PM PDT by Honorary Serb
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To: duckln
Amazing! No one yet has reiterated that IWPR is a shameless 'rag'. And this article proves it again.

The article was so worthless, why bother commenting.

70 posted on 08/13/2002 10:42:54 AM PDT by nomoreheroes
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To: Hoplite
Greece had both the motive (orthodox fraternity)

That's a favorite fisction of the liberal Hum Warriors. Maybe the Greeks just don't like unjust wars in their neighborhood--would you?

71 posted on 08/13/2002 10:46:11 AM PDT by nomoreheroes
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To: Hoplite
Helps to explain oxi-nato and pericles, I guess.

This is not a secret. Nations took sides in this conflict. Greeks and Russians rooted for Serbs, Germans supported Croats. Saudies, Turks and Iranians supported Bosnian Muslims and KLA Albanians. French could not make their mind. So what is your point?

Why do you use name Hoplite, BTW?

72 posted on 08/13/2002 10:54:36 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Hoplite; Voronin
Voronin posted some good evidence suggesting that Bosnian Serbs were not responsible for the 1994 and 1995 market explosions. For the 1994 incident, A UN report was filed and squarely blamed the Muslims, but was kept secret for obvious political reasons. But the main findings of the report were leaked and, despite some counter-arguments, were deemed convincing by many prominent figures. For example:

"A few days ago Mr. Boutros Ghali informed me that the projectile which hit the Markale marketplace in Sarajevo was an act of (Bosnian) Muslim provocation".
President Mitterrand of France, 1995

The statement refers to the 1994 explosion and is quoted in a book entitled L'Annee des Adieux (The Year of Parting) It has been reprinted by several sources, as a web search reveals.

This and other corroborating testimonies and statements by well respected neutral observers (David Owen, Yasushi Akashi, General Rose, General Briquement, etc) can be found in several sources, e.g. Flame or Balkan Repository Project.

The 1994 explosion, therefore, is acepted by prominent neutral observers (Sell is certainly NOT one of them) to have been a provocation by the Muslims. The case is less clear-cut for the 1995 explosion. The hastily composed report that Hoplite mentions does blame the Serbs but was explicitly contradicted by several experts on the scene, as Voronin notes, and smells of political bias, since it was written with the Clinton administration's blessing with the obvious purpose to serve as a pretext for bombing the Serbs. Apparently Izetbegovic's provocateurs and their patrons in the Clinton administration learnt something from their 1994 fiasco and organized their 1995 explosion somewhat better, denying annoying inquisitive people such as Boutros Ghali the opportunity to spoil their provocation so easily as in 1994.

73 posted on 08/14/2002 8:04:22 AM PDT by pythagorean
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To: Hoplite
You quote Sells without the disclaimer that he is a paid pitchman for the Islamists? That's not very honest.
74 posted on 08/15/2002 6:32:05 AM PDT by eniapmot
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To: A. Pole
Why do you use name Hoplite, BTW?

There is no contradiction for him. He is one of those pointy-head academics who worship the "ancients", and deny any connection between the glory that was Greece, the grandeur that was Rome, and today's greasy reality. If pressed, he will tell you that today's Greeks are either Slavs or Africans.

75 posted on 08/15/2002 6:35:07 AM PDT by eniapmot
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To: pythagorean; Voronin
Stanislav Galic is currently being tried for the 1994 shelling, and I fully expect he'll try to blame it on rogue elements in his command or some other previously used "Serb in the Hague" defence, as the Sarajevo Romanija Corps of the VRS is as good for the 1994 shelling as they are for the 1995 shelling, regardless of Col Demurenko's astonishment at an indiscriminately mortar shell passing between two tall buildings and other's disbelief that it functioned as designed.

And by the way, you both forgot the "the victims had ice in their ears because they were pulled from the morgue and placed in the market", which is my favorite "Radovanism" on the subject, so you might add that to your list of objections.

And the reference was from Louis Sell, not Michael Sells, though he might as well be labelled rabidly anti-Serb just to get it over with and out of the way, right?

76 posted on 08/16/2002 2:46:31 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: A. Pole
Greeks and Russians rooted for Serbs

Perhaps you could explain the phenomenon to nomoreheroes?

D-3-1, Benning School for Boys, Class of '87.

77 posted on 08/16/2002 2:48:25 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: eniapmot
Let's see, your response to me is based upon somebody else's mistake, and your response to A.Pole is an exercise in creative writing that speaks more to your state of mind than anything else.

Don't stop, you're on a roll.

78 posted on 08/16/2002 2:50:14 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
#76, take 2...

blah blah indiscriminately fired mortar yadda yadda

Much better.

79 posted on 08/16/2002 2:54:38 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Hoplite, as usual you resort to citing ICTY indictments to support your point. But every honest person will admit that ICTY is grossly biased against Serbs. On Sarajevo in particular, ICTY is deliberately ignoring the widely acknowledged fact that several (although I admit certainly not all) of the sniping and bombing incidents were Muslim provocations and blames them all on Galic and other Serbs instead of indicting Izetbegovic, Delic and other Muslims who ordered and carried out these calculated murders of their own civilians for an obvious political gain. ICTY indictments are politically motivated and have less factual and moral value than toilet paper.

You continue to evade the issue that an array of respected neutral international figures openly acknowledge that sniping and shelling provocations was a routine Bosnian Muslim tactic. I am not talking about Demurenko. I am talking talking about Boutros Ghali, Mitterrand, General Rose etc.

80 posted on 08/17/2002 3:16:57 AM PDT by pythagorean
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To: Hoplite
That's quite pathetic even for you Hoplite. That's why you remanin an amateur historian. You just can't cut it with anything that doesn't jive with officially sanctioned propaganda. Peddle on dear boy, peddle on.

VRN

81 posted on 08/17/2002 9:34:49 AM PDT by Voronin
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To: Hoplite
Perhaps you could explain the phenomenon to nomoreheroes?

Don't need no 'splainin. Most Greeks I know can't stand the Serbs and Russians. The Greek public opinion has much more to do with the perception that the US conducted an immoral and illegal attack on one of its neighbors.

Do you honestly believe that the US has its hands clean in the Balkans?

82 posted on 08/19/2002 10:26:05 AM PDT by nomoreheroes
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To: pythagorean
Really Pythagorean?

How's about every honest person admitting that the Bosnian Serbs committed 90% of the war crimes in Bosnia and subsequently showing absolutely no inclination to hold the perpetrators accountable for those actions, resulting in the UN's seeing a need to have the ICTY do the job for them?

How's that Serb investigation of the murder of prisoners from Vukovar Hospital coming along?
Yeah, over 10 years later and absolutely nothing.

Ergo, the ICTY.

We appear to differ on the opinion of an "honest person", so I suppose I'll add the adjective "informed" to my definition and we can clear the matter up.

As to specifics, notably Galic's indictment, he is charged with 6 specific instances of forces under his command shelling civilians and 32 specific instances of his forces sniping civilians, so it is up to the defense to attempt to first prove and then work in any instances of self-inflicted sniping or shelling into their strategy, though I don't see how they will mitigate any of the specific counts.

Now, on to the 5 February Markale shelling - your appeals to authority which attribute this shelling to the BiH forces are relying on the preliminary report issued by an UNPROFOR Member, Cpt Verdy, which by the way is not "Secret" and has been brought into evidence in Galic's trial, and has been thouroughly discounted by John Hamill, the author of the subsequent UNPROFOR Team of Experts Report.

To wit, starting on pg. 6097 of the trial transcripts (Yeah, I can see why you hate the ICTY so much):

1 Q. Have a look at the second paragraph of that page. Did you find
2 that the figures used by Captain Verdy were unsound and, therefore, his
3 results were flawed?
4 A. I found his results were totally flawed, totally flawed, totally
5 inaccurate, completely wrong.
6 Q. Did you find that the methodology he used was flawed or not?
7 A. His initial methodology appeared to be relatively good; however,
8 his use of the methodology and his simple arithmetic turned out to be very
9 flawed. In a word, wrong.
10 Q. And you also found that he used tables in respect to the wrong
11 weapon?
12 A. I couldn't believe what I read in his report and what he
13 explained. He used Howitzer tables. Howitzers are a completely different
14 weapon from mortars, for a start, as I explained earlier. But further
15 than that, each individual weapon, of whatever type, has its own specific
16 tables and cannot be used for any other weapon, because they are the
17 result of an arduous scientific process which determines exactly what
18 range is arrived at on any elevation on any specific charge. So using any
19 other weapon, even if it was a mortar - and it wasn't in this case - is
20 completely and totally wrong.
21 Q. So you said using another weapon; you mean using the range tables
22 for any other weapon.
23 A. Yes. Simply cannot be done.
24 Q. Was this your finding or was this a consistent finding of all of
25 the team of experts who went there on the 11th?

Page 6098

1 A. Nobody on the team could believe what had been done. So yes, it
2 was consistent across the team which came from Zagreb.

So General Rose, Mitterand, and anybody else referring to the "Secret Report" which implicates the BiH forces in targeting their own people in regards to the Feb. '94 Markale incident is merely propagating false information, and yes, never mind Demurenko.

83 posted on 08/20/2002 3:57:04 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: nomoreheroes
Your post somehow supposes Greek prescience, as Greece was rooting for Serbia before the US bombed anybody.
84 posted on 08/20/2002 3:58:29 AM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Your post somehow supposes Greek prescience, as Greece was rooting for Serbia before the US bombed anybody

Don't read too much into my post. I thought this thread was an attempt to indict Greek policy and public opinion to be complicit with (mostly ) fabricated Serb crimes in the Balkans.

I say you and most other biased observers of the Balkans read too much into Greek Balkan policies. There is no Orthodox alliance against Muslim populations in the Balkans. That is a fallacy created by interventionist third wayers to destabilize the region. The fact is Greece is a major strategic pressence in the Balkans, and has natural economic and security concerns and interests with its neighbors. Casual observers, or those with an axe to grind often misread Greek intentions.

I restate: most Greek do not like Serbs and Russians, but they sympathise with them because the Third Way is out to get them all.

85 posted on 08/20/2002 6:02:46 AM PDT by nomoreheroes
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To: Hoplite; Voronin; nomoreheroes; A. Pole; Honorary Serb; eniapmot; smokegenerator; Destro; duckln
Says Hoplite:

"How's about every honest person admitting that the Bosnian Serbs committed 90% of the war crimes in Bosnia ..."

... "So General Rose, Mitterand, and anybody else referring to the "Secret Report" which implicates the BiH forces in targeting their own people in regards to the Feb. '94 Markale incident is merely propagating false information, ... "

SIDE 1: ASSORTED INTERESTS PROMOTING "SERB CRIMES" THEORY

Who are the honest persons you are talking about? Clinton? Albright? Holbrooke? Biden? Lantos? Gilman? Dole (the "Senator from Tirana")? The Muslim lobbyists with deep pockets in Washington? Amanpour? The NY Times editorialists? The Ruder Finn professional propagandists who spread the "rape camp" and other related nonsense to naive self-proclaimed humanitarianists? ITN, who fooled the world with Fikret Alic and the fence? Soros and the various outlets he and his friends control, including Human Rights Watch, International Crisis Group, Coalition for International Justice and IWPR? ICTY prosecutors who are given jobs by the aforementioned corrupt politicians as a reward for their "services"? Or ICTY prosecution witnesses of dubious credentials who are carefully picked by the well-funded and well-organized "court" in order to give biased and distorted accounts thus providing a judicial stamp of approval to the official propaganda? Any honest person who does a little search will find out that almost all anti-Serb propaganda originates in one or more of the above quite restricted in number but extremely influential sources, centered largely in Washington, particularly but not exclusively in "liberal" circles.

SIDE 2: THE WARTIME UN LEADERSHIP WITH BOSNIA HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE

On the other side, almost any senior UN figure with authority and experience in Bosnia disagree with Hoplite's statement of 90% Serb guilt and attribute equal or, in some cases, more blame to the Muslim side. Many of them, not only Rose, have explicitly talked and written about the consistent tactic of the Muslims to commit crimes and blame them on the Serbs, as well as to provoke the Serbs by firing from "safe havens" and civilian areas. The ones coming to mind include Boutros Ghali, Owen, Rose, MacKenzie, Morillon, Brinquemont, Nambiar, Akashi, Woodward, Corwin. Do you, Hoplite, really suggest that all these people, who never had a known connection with Serb interests, are propagating false information? Were they fooled by some organized Serb propaganda (if such a thing ever existed outside Serbia)? Do you, Hoplite, really suggest that the likes of Clinton, Soros, their pseudohumanitarian cheerleaders and their ICTY appointees are more reliable than the high ranking UN figures involved in Bosnia? Why should any honest and informed person agree with you and take ICTY seriously?

To the example I quoted above from Mitterrand, I here add 2 more from General Rose's "Fighting for Peace". Note that the reports do not represent Rose's subjective impressions, neither the conclusions of some untrustworthy post-facto investigator probably appointed with political motivation (like John Hamill for the Sarajevo explosion), but objective military information by peacekeepers who happened to witness the crimes and had not any obvious motivation or opportunity to lie.

page 197, " ... More serious were reports we started to receive from the French in the city that the Bosnian forces were sometimes firing on their own citizens. ..."

Page 162:.."The French battalion guarding the airport had managed to pin down one of the firing points that was in the Bosnian held town of Butmir, close to confrontation line. On one occasion, a Fernch soldier had actually seen a mortar fired from Butmir, across the airfield, at aircraft waiting to unload on the dispersal apron. The Bosnian forces were evidently doing this to sustain the image of a city under siege. Ganic (Bosnian Muslim Vice-President) agreed he would stop these attacks, but he never did."

There is plenty of solid evidence of this kind to indict the whole Bosnian Muslim leadership on very serious war crimes and absolve Serbs from many, although certainly not all, of the ones they are accused of and convicted for in this kangaroo court. I do not argue that Galic and other Serbs are guilty of no crime, but the aforementioned Ganic and other Muslims are apparently also guilty, but not prosecuted by the overtly biased ICTY. It is the vicious anti-Serb partiality and propaganda that enrage any non-Serb who is impartial, honest, informed and wise enough to trust Rose and Boutros Ghali more than ICTY, Albright and Izetbegovic.

86 posted on 08/20/2002 9:22:07 AM PDT by pythagorean
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To: pythagorean
Gee Pythag - you forgot to add that John Hamill's report wasn't peer reviewed in the traditional manner before being published.

Are we done reviewing the '94 Markale incident, or do you have more BS to send my way? You seem to fall on your face when we get down to specifics.

87 posted on 08/20/2002 4:34:21 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Insults again?

The 1994 explosion specifics are analysed in the literature I linked to in one of my comments above. See particularly the original writings by David Binder and the conclusions reached by UN officials and Boutros Ghali. I don't see much point in copying the arguments from these sources, since I don't have anything to add. After all my goal here is not to argue with you but to write short analyses that may give ammunition to other freepers in their efforts to debunk the anti-Serbian propaganda whenever they are active outside FreeRepublic. I have to admit that your antagonistic comments sometimes help me in that respect and I appreciate them, like other freepers do.

88 posted on 08/20/2002 7:25:21 PM PDT by pythagorean
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To: pythagorean
You're referring back to material that has been debunked.

Appreciate this: learn to learn - it will help you avoid recursive errors of this type.

89 posted on 08/20/2002 9:09:09 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: nomoreheroes; *balkans
most Greek do not like Serbs...

Now that's an interesting statement. I'm a Serb and it's been my experience that most Greeks love Serbs more than most Serbs love Serbs :-)

As a matter of fact, I've never met a Greek that didn't express some sort of sincere and immediate affection for me the minute they found out that I was of Serbian ancestory.

90 posted on 08/20/2002 11:58:24 PM PDT by getoffmylawn
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To: Hoplite
The case is complex and in order to debunk a view held by a number of bona fide neutral and reliable observers, you need much more than a Mr. Hamill testifying in a court with widely acknowledged political bias. I hope that as the anti-Serb hysteria of the 90's finally subsides and the world gets a more realistic view of the modus operandi of militant Islam and of its tactical alliance with Clinton's Washington, conclusive and indisputable answers for the Sarajevo bombings will emerge.
91 posted on 08/21/2002 6:54:09 AM PDT by pythagorean
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To: Destro
Good posts..........Hoplite and his HumWarrior buddies will never accept the truth, that they supported the bad guys and turned a difficult situation into a tragedy.

Unlike Hoplite, the US military has enough sense to recognize when it has made a mistake and change course. So far, they have arrested virtually the entire KLA officer corps for killing their fellow Albanians.

Hoplite may recall it was Clinton who ordered the USAF to serve the KLA's needs. Well, GWB is trying his best to undo Clinton's errors. When will Hoplite join the rest of the world and admit that Clinton was wrong ?

92 posted on 08/21/2002 12:07:24 PM PDT by vooch
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To: Hoplite
Here is an enlightening insight into the source of the article you posted. It's on their Aims and Activities page. I think anyone who has followed the tragedy of Yugoslavia's dismemberment will recongnise the very precious and specialized language of those who intervene behind the lines:

Aims and Activities

The Problem--

Local media in transitional societies are key agents of change, the essential rallying point in emerging democracies. But journalists often face serious obstacles which prevent them from playing their full role in the process of democratisation and conflict resolution.

They may suffer direct repression and grave personal risk, or may lack basic skills, experience or structures through which they can work effectively.

Our Aims--

IWPR supports recovery and development in crisis zones by providing professional training, financial assistance and an international platform to independent media, human rights activists and other local democratic voices.

Who We Are--

Founded in 1991, IWPR is an independent educational charity based in the United Kingdom. The Board of Trustees includes prominent journalists, peace researchers and regional specialists. Staff are mostly journalists with international or regional backgrounds, many having worked for the BBC, Reuters and other established media.

IWPR's primary beneficiaries are local journalists who participate in its reporting, research and training programmes. We work in partnership with a wide range of media organisations and human rights groups throughout the regions it covers.

Where We Work--

IWPR manages major programmes in the Balkans, Caucasus and Central Asia, with a special project on the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal and a new project on Afghanistan.

It maintains offices in Almaty, Belgrade, Bishkek, Pristina, Skopje, Tashkent and The Hague and has representatives in Baku, Sarajevo, Tbilisi, Tirana, Yerevan and Zagreb. Its headquarters is in London.

How We Work--

IWPR is a pioneer in harnessing the power of the internet to support regional voices and alternative information. The heart of our work is professional collaboration between international and regional journalists - the aim being to enhance the latter's reporting skills. This requires intensive communication (from on-line learning to formal training seminars) and extreme sensitivity to the abilities, background and risks facing participating journalists.

What We Do--

IWPR engages local reporters in crisis areas for training, research and reporting projects. Field offices build local networks, edit reports and host workshops and discussion sessions. IWPR is best known for its award-winning website and electronic publications in five languages. Its material is widely republished in local and international media. In the pre-internet era, IWPR published the highly regarded magazine WarReport.

ACTIVITIES AND COUNTRY PROJECTS.--

IWPR's core work is based on the ten-point Reporting/Training Dynamic. This programme involves intensive collaboration between local journalists and international editors through the entire editorial process, from story development and writing, through editing and publication, to local debate and evaluation and training. The overall programme toolbox is adapted for each country project based on local needs, problems and available resources.....

93 posted on 08/21/2002 12:25:55 PM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: pythagorean
What a pathetic response - you're wrong, the facts prove it, and all you can do is go back to your original disproven sources.

Get a clue.

94 posted on 08/21/2002 2:32:08 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: LaBelleDameSansMerci
How's about spending your time solving the Curuvija case, which speaks directly to the heart of the issue you bring up.

Thanks.

95 posted on 08/21/2002 2:34:54 PM PDT by Hoplite
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Comment #96 Removed by Moderator

To: Tropoljac; getoffmylawn
Ok so an overstatement on my part. It was my resentment over "guilt by association" that many Hum Warriors try to put on the Greeks as they cast about for more evildoers in the Balkans. This article is a perfect illustration.
97 posted on 08/22/2002 10:32:55 AM PDT by nomoreheroes
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To: Hoplite
...90% of crimes...
Congratulations! After repeating this statement you've earned yourself a nickname.
From now on you will be known as the Triple F*.
*Fraudulent, False & Filthy
98 posted on 08/22/2002 12:47:16 PM PDT by Hrebeljanovic
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To: Hoplite
Hey, Triple F,
what position did you play on that Bosnian Muslim soccer team yesterday, "left interference"?
Or were you in the stands waving Suadi Arabia's flag and chanting "Allahu akbar"?
Or you are still busy digging through old Turkish graveyards?
And, yes, you lost 2 : 0.
99 posted on 08/22/2002 12:54:07 PM PDT by Hrebeljanovic
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