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Tape-Recorded Conversation between James Traficant and Richard Detor (Morford Corruption)
The Business Journal Online ^ | August 30, 2001

Posted on 08/07/2002 5:41:24 PM PDT by PJ-Comix

StoRe: U.S. VS. JAMES A. TRAFICANT, JR.
CASE NO., 4:01 CR 207

TRANSCRIPT OF TAPE-RECORDED CONVERSATION BETWEEN CONGRESSMAN JAMES A. TRAFICANT, JR., AND RICHARD DETOR, FORMER EMPLOYEE OF U.S. AEROSPACE, MANASSAS, VIRGINIA, ON AUGUST 1, 2001.

TAPE PREPARED BY LISA C. NAGY-BAKER, A NOTARY PUBLIC WITHIN AND FOR THE STATE OF OHIO ON THIS DATE, AUGUST 28, 2001, FROM A TAPE SUPPLIED BY CONGRESSMAN TRAFICANT.

MR. TRAFICANT: Hello.
MR. DETOR: Returning the page.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah. How you doing?
MR. DETOR: Well, having fun.
MR. TRAFICANT: I know. I got some information to give you. I got it straight form Chance's son that J.J. did perjure himself in the Chance trial, and that's what they did. He went ahead and lied on me to save his ass.
MR. DETOR: Yeah.
MR. TRAFICANT: So I don't know. What's happening with you? What did you hear?
MR. DETOR: I have been threatened, intimidated, essentially tried to mold into being forced to lie. If I speak to anybody, they'll come arrest me immediately. He told me that he had me on perjury, although I've never provided a statement to him. They said that I'm wearing Union pants (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and I either need to become wise and tell them what they want to hear, or they're going to name me August 15 as a co-conspirator.
MR. TRAFICANT: Okay. They want you in essence to lie, don't they?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: All right. Let me ask you; the reason why is, this is the good news. I've got two people now that were both told the same thing, and I've got one of them who said it in front of a witness; and I'm going to make a motion for prosecutorial misconduct on their threatening and intimidation; and I'm going to do that, and they may call you as a witness.
MR. DETOR: I've been threatened with the IRS. They told me that the IRS was immediately going to investigate me and that they were holding the IRS off, and I've been threatened with going and being six weeks in trial. They realize that I would lose my security licenses and I would lose my (UNINTELLIGIBLE) license if their were any kind of a Federal charge if found guilty, which would reasonably come, in all likelihood. And they have called and been on me and tried every threat, and they've gone all through my wife, what kind of salary, why I bought the house I bought, why I drive the kind of car I drive, you know, what my background is.
It has just been a nightmare of unbelievable proportions. I really feel that I'm living in Red China.
MR. TRAFICANT: Okay. Let me ask you this. They more or less said to you that they wanted you to lie, didn't they?
MR. DETOR: What they did is when they asked the question, they say, well, this is what you're saying; and they change what you're saying; and you stop and you go, no, that is not what I am saying.
MR. TRAFICANT: They want you to more or less admit to the way they're interpreting it, which would be a lie, wouldn't it?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: But they give you the impression that if you more or less accept their version, you'll have no more problems.
MR. DETOR: Give immunity. They won't get the IRS. No questions. No ifs ands or buts. I'm dealing with an attorney named Plato Cacberis, right their in Washington; and I was dealing with one law firm. I said this is not acceptable. This is not the United States. They can't sit there and try to ask me to lie. They can't even suggest it. They told me they subpoenaed all my bank records in the blind and all my IRS stuff. You know, I mean I've listened to one story after another from the Assistant U.S. Attorney.
Q What was his name?
MR. DETOR: Morford.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah. He's the one doing the threatening?
MR. DETOR: Yeah.
MR. TRAFICANT: And he basically wants you to lie, and he'll let you alone, won't he?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: Let me ask you something. I'm having a hearing because I am going to call and give notice of the courts to call Morford as a witness; and I have to have a hearing on his behavior, and I will have three people that will be testifying to the same thing you will testify to; and if you were an attorney you'd lose your license, wouldn't you?
MR. DETOR: Oh, absolutely. This is not ethical. I've gone through hell. I have literally gone through hell.
MR. TRAFICANT: What I'm going to tell you is I am going to subpoena you in this process against Morford; and all I want you to do is tell the truth that if you would lie, they would lay off you; and that's the bottom message they gave you. Isn't that a fact?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: Are you going to show up if I subpoena you for such a hearing?
MR. DETOR: You have to handle it through the attorney's name is Plato Cacberis.
MR. TRAFICANT: Could you give me that so I can write it down. Hold a minute. Spell that.
MR. DETOR: It's C-A-C-B-E-R-I-S.
MR. TRAFICANT: Plato?
MR. DETOR: Yeah, Plato Cacberis. 202-775 ­ hold on a second. I got to find his card here in my pocket. I forget the last four digits. They said if I talked to anybody, they'd come arrest me immediately. If I did this ­ it's just been unbelievable. It's 755 8700.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, but I'm my own attorney, and I have a right to talk to individuals that are being investigated.
MR. DETOR: That's correct.
MR. TRAFICANT: Did they say you couldn't talk to me?
MR. DETOR: Yeah, well, nobody. What they've done is violated my Constitutional rights. I've to gone to Plato and asked Plato to go up to the public ethics group to bring this to their attention.
MR. TRAFICANT: Did he?
MR. DETOR: He's doing it now. He's in the process of doing it.
MR. TRAFICANT: Let me ask you this; if you would do this, if you would file a lawsuit against them ­ I can't advise you ­ I'm not an attorney; but here's what happened with another guy who come out, and I'm having lunch with the guy ­ I think I told you this, Richard ­ he come out and he was in a Rotary meeting. He sat down and said, Jim, I love you; I apologize for what's happening. I said, well, tell the truth. What did you tell the Grand Jury? He said, I told the Grand Jury the truth; that we really didn't do anything wrong.
MR. DETOR: All right. You need ­
MR. TRAFICANT: But the bottom line was my attorney told me that if I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear in the words they wanted it said, they were going to indict me. My attorney said you don't need this shit. He was a businessman; you understand?
MR. DETOR: My attorney told me the same thing. Do you want to spend $200,000 defending yourself, or is this person susceptible? And I said I cannot lie. I cannot place myself in any situation that I heard anybody ask or request for papers or anything. And the attorney reviewed it; he looked at it and he said the meals, they're all below $6; there's not even ethics violations. There's nothing wrong with it.
MR. TRAFICANT: I paid for some of those meals.
MR. DETOR: That's what he said.
MR. TRAFICANT: It showed, didn't I? I paid for a lot meals.
MR. DETOR: Yes, and even the purchase of the boat. The boat, there is no issue; there is no problem.
MR. TRAFICANT: I'll call the ethics committee about it. And you remember when J.J. was so happy he wanted to buy the boat, and I said J.J. you don't need this boat; but Al does want this boat, and I don't want your money; do you remember?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: How about contract; did you ever get the contract on that boat? I never got it.
MR. DETOR: Yep, I got it.
MR. TRAFICANT: Could you send me a copy of it?
MR. DETOR: Yes, I'll do it through the attorney.
MR. TRAFICANT: Do that and do that fast. Here's what I'm telling you. You let your attorney know that I'm going to move for a hearing for Morford, on Morford, that he has done this now; and if you come up and testify to that, this son of a bitch may go to jail because what they're doing, this is Gestapo shit.
MR. DETOR: It is. And I never thought it could exist, and I would never have been able to be convinced. I would never have believed it in a million years. But it's exactly what they're doing. It's exactly what they've been doing to me. I mean, they have just ruined my life.
MR. TRAFICANT: How about Al Lang?
MR. DETOR: Haven't heard a peep from him.
MR. TRAFICANT: But you know that's what they did to him; and, shit, he don't have the balls; he'd probably said anything, wouldn't he?
MR. DETOR: I have no idea, but the thing is I've talked to other people, and they've all looked at me and they've said you can only tell the facts. You can't stand before a judge and lie to him. You can't do it. We know the type of person you are. They said we also know the type of person you are; if you thought there was anything unethical or anything wrong, you would have had nothing to do with it. I said their was not even a question of anything wrong or any improper actions at any time in my mind in any way, shape or form, nor did I ever hear anybody ask for anything in any way, shape or form for anything.
MR. TRAFICANT: And you were there at everything we did, weren't you?
MR. DETOR: Well, everything I know of.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, I never met with Cafaro; and when I did, you know, this business about him giving money, he was such a damned liar; he lied to everybody; but to save his ass, he would lie and say anything, wouldn't he?
MR. DETOR: Well, when they asked me, I said I'm not even aware of him getting any money from the boat at all. I said I thought Al sunk the boat, ruined it and he's stuck with it with no value on it now.
MR. TRAFICANT: That's exactly what he did.
MR. DETOR: I said the boat was professionally appraised. It had a value. I said he was buying it for less than that value. I said he ruined it. He damaged it and just walked from the deal. I said, I'm not aware of dollar one that went to anybody other than the money that he spent on doing the repairs and then decided to go ahead and he was out of it. I said if there had been any kind of a fee for favors or anything else, somebody would have bought it; it would have been all the way; it would have been a done deal. They wouldn't have spent a year­
MR. TRAFICANT: I would have taken the $26,000 check from J.J., wouldn't I?
MR. DETOR: Yep.
MR. TRAFICANT: God damned right; he was so happy; but that's the bottom line, what they have on J.J. is he perjured himself with the Chance gate, and you've got that impression when he was going through that period of time, didn't you?
MR. DETOR: I was told that.
MR. TRAFICANT: Who told you?
MR. DETOR: Came through an attorney.
MR. TRAFICANT: Do you remember the name of the attorney?
MR. DETOR: It was one of the attorneys ­ oh, you know who it was? The attorney's name was J. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and he was advised of that by Al Lang.
MR. TRAFICANT: I see. And evidently Al Lang had known that J.J. had perjured himself?
MR. DETOR: Yeah.
MR. TRAFICANT: While the guy sits in jail, Chance had told his son and his son had told me that the attorneys had set him up to get J.J. to lie. He didn't know until after he saw my national TV show and talk show that, in fact, that Leonardo (phonetic spelling), his attorney, was working with the Feds and they set Chance up. Chance said he never got the $13,000 from Strollo; but his attorney is the one that convinced him he had to find somebody that was a legitimate rich businessman and recommended Cafaro. Could you imagine that?
MR. DETOR: Unbelievable.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, so anyway. I think you're on good grounds. If they indict you, you're not going to lie for these bastards, are you?
MR. DETOR: No.
MR. TRAFICANT: I think we're going to have a hell of a fight here, but anyway, I'm going to have a hearing, and I'm going to call you as a witness in that hearing.
MR. DETOR: Yep,. That's fine. I'll grab the attorneys that were, you know, present with me.
MR. TRAFICANT: But having known this and having know now that there are others that I could call, you should sue them; believe me, Richard.
MR. DETOR: We're going up to talk to public ethics to talk to everybody we can because it's out of control.
MR. TRAFICANT: You should also write a letter to the U.S. Attorney General.
MR. DETOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MR. TRAFICANT: You should also write a letter to the U.S. Attorney General about what they're doing because this speaks to what they've done with everybody in this case. You've got people lying. They either have something to gain or something or lose, and they've made mountains our of molehills. They've made half truths into felonies. They've made loans into kickbacks, and I've had it.
MR. DETOR: Yep.
MR. TRAFICANT: And you know I wouldn't accept any money. You personally know that?
MR. DETOR: No.
MR. TRAFICANT: I mean, J.J. wanted to give me money over that car deal; remember that 6,000? And I wouldn't take no money from J.J., and I told him I wouldn't remember?
MR. DETOR: And I guess the stuff that Al Lang handled it in that corner of it, I don't really have any knowledge of. They jumped all over me trying to ask about the $12,000. I said this is ridiculous. I've got witnesses of where I returned it to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, I know that; but I mean, you do know that after that car we thought was only going to be 1,000 that I rented to go to Louisiana which turned out to be 6,000, that J.J. wanted to give me money and I would not accept it. You knew that?
MR. DETOR: Well, I knew you wouldn't accept anything.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, I told you to tell them I don't want their money.
MR. DETOR: Yeah, you wouldn't accept anything on anything. All you wanted J.J. is to do what he agreed to do.
MR. TRAFICANT: And that was to do what?
MR. DETOR: To purchase the vehicle.
MR. TRAFICANT: He wanted to purchase the vehicle. You have those papers, don't you?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: I want a copy sent to me of those; and second of all, the only thing I wanted from J.J. was he would move not only the company but the headquarters up to Youngstown.
MR. DETOR: Correct.
MR. TRAFICANT: That's about where it is. So anyway, I'm going to have this hearing and, Richard, I'm going to be calling you. Give me your address. I don't have your address.
MR. DETOR: You know what, it's through Plato Cacberis because they said they would arrest me instantly if I talked to anybody. If you hear an attorney so I understand that you're representing yourself so I can ­
MR. TRAFICANT: You can refer me to your attorney.
MR. DETOR: The best thing to do is to handle the rest of it right through Plato. He'll deal with it. We are going to public ethics. We're going t o everybody. I've had threats on me. They called my little girl, the nine-year old, little Kaitlyn.
MR. TRAFICANT: Who called her?
MR. DETOR: I don't know, but they told her that I'm going to be dead. All kinds of things. I have literally ­
MR. TRAFICANT: How do you know it was the Feds who did it?
MR. DETOR: I don't know who did it, but all I know is my life has gone to hell, and when I brought it to their attention when they interviewed me, they laughed about it and blow it off.
MR. TRAFICANT: Even the threats to your daughter?
MR. DETOR: Yes. That's my daughter. If I answer, nobody talks. If she answers, they talk to her, and they tell her that daddy's going to be dead. Daddy's bad; all kinds of things. It's devastating her. It's making her a nervous wreck.
MR. TRAFICANT: And you suspect it's the government?
MR. DETOR: I don't know who it is.
MR. TRAFICANT: You wouldn't suspect it to be Al Lang doing that, would you?
MR. DETOR: No, I can't figure out what beef he has.
MR. TRAFICANT: And what would Cafaro have from doing that?
MR. DETOR: The thing is when they tried to tell me Al Lang's saying things, who the hell is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) buying all those God damned boats for it. I never heard anything to the contrary in my entire life.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah.
MR. DETOR: Has he lost his mind?
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, and I think it's very important and I want you to talk to your attorney. If you could send me all those documents that I've asked for, and tell him what we've talked about and that he should go ahead and sue the bastards because I'm going to have them into court; and that would be a hell of a thing with you suing them and me having them into court for their behavior with another guy. He can deny all he wants, this other guy. I have a witness that heard this other guy say those things/
MR. DETOR: Have you talked to any of the Congressional ethics groups or anything on any of this stuff?
MR. TRAFICANT: I can't because it's a criminal thing, and I'm just going to go through the courts; and they've got a couple people that are really lying through their teeth. I've been targeted, I told you that, for all these years. You know that. You could tell by the way they're treating you.
MR. DETOR: Right.
MR. TRAFICANT: But Morford was the one that did the threatening?
MR. DETOR: Yeah.
MR. TRAFICANT: And he wanted you, in essence, to lie?
MR. DETOR: That's what came out because it could not be understood any other way; and then when they didn't like what I was saying, they said, well, we didn't want to say this and we didn't want to shake you up, but the IRS has a lot of interest. We've subpoenaed all your records in the blind, which I find is unconstitutional and illegal (UNINTELLIGIBLE); but they tell me they've subpoenaed all my records in the blind and they the IRS wants to launch an audit against me immediately and that there were significant issues there; and they told me that I was going to be arrested and taken out of my office; that I would be taken to Cleveland to be arraigned. I'd have to post a bond, and then I'd have to spend a significant amount of money defending myself.
I keep going over these issues and issues and issues, and none of these make any sense. I don't even know where there's anything even done wrong; and they said ­ well, they do on and on and on.
MR. TRAFICANT: You basically told them that I did nothing illegal?
MR. DETOR: Pardon me?
MR. TRAFICANT: You basically told them I did nothing illegal?
MR. DETOR: I didn't either. There's nothing illegal.
MR. TRAFICANT: I know that. They would not accept it, would they, Richard?
MR. DETOR: Oh, no. Absolutely no.
MR. TRAFICANT: Well, I'm telling you, I can't advise you but I would get your attorney to file a lawsuit immediately knowing know ­ have your attorney call me ­ and knowing now that I'm moving to have him called as a witness in this trial. Morford; and she's going to call a hearing on it to see whether or not I can call her; and I will call you as a witness to show his prosecutorial behavior. This is illegal.
MR. DETOR: This is illegal.
MR. TRAFICANT: They were extorting you.
MR. DETOR: Yes, they were.
MR. TRAFICANT: And if they've done this to you, what do you think they've done to others?
MR. DETOR: I mean, the thing that I told them, I said, I can't speak for the individual in any way other than when I was with him; and I find this unbelievable to think anything to the contrary. I said I find it unbelievable that any staff member could be doing anything to the contrary because they are so, they seem so sound and straight and narrow with things being done right and things being done properly. I said, I don't see it any other way. I said I'm sorry; I just don't see anything.
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, but the bottom line is Morford let you know in no uncertain terms if you lied, your problems would all go away; and if you didn't, boy, you were going to end up in jail?
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: That's the bottom line.
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: All right. Well, listen, you have your attorney get in touch with me; and I'm recommending to you that you consider filing a lawsuit against him because I'm going to have a hearing on Morford's behavior.
MR. DETOR: I think, to tell you the truth, that the whole thing needs to be thrown out.
MR. TRAFICANT: Well, this may lead to that, your participation.
MR. DETOR: It's out of control.
MR. TRAFICANT: They're either going to screw you, me, or they're going to get away with it or they're going to get their ass in a sling; and maybe it's their ass in a sling and everybody's afraid to go after them. And I'm one of the few in America, Richard.
MR. DETOR: Yeah, I know.
MR. TRAFICANT: And I'm afraid to death. I'm not talking big. I'm afraid to death, but I'm going after these bastards. This is not what America's supposed to be. We shouldn't have to fear our God damned Gestapo government.
MR. DETOR: Well, they referred to me as collateral damage; and if I wasn't smart enough to get out of the way and decide whether I was wearing a Union shirt or Confederate pants ­ that's what he said to me quote-unquote, you're wearing Union pants and Confederate shirt or something of that nature. They're shooting at you from both sides. You better make sue you know which side you're going to be on, but you better be on the winning side because you're in a lot of trouble. I said to them, I'm sorry; I don't see what I'm in trouble for. I didn't see anything happen. I wasn't aware of anything. I didn't see one transaction of anything that you're alleging. And then they said, well, he took $40,000 on his boat. I said that's nonsense. That is absolute, 100 percent nonsense. I said I'm not aware or ever heard anybody say anything about it. And they said J.J. Cafaro gave him money out in Youngstown personally and the finally the FBI steps in and (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I had no knowledge of that.
MR. TRAFICANT: Oh, but you know that Cafaro was such a lair. You know that J.J. wasn't giving me cash. If he was going to give me cash, he would have brought in 26,000 to buy a boat, wouldn't he?
MR. DETOR: If J.J. Cafaro wanted to go do something in a way, he would have just gone and done it. There's no doubt in my mind. J.J.'s proven to be a lair through and through. He induced my family to down here. He fraudulently did it. Damn it, my family was able to hang on to the house by my wife's working, by me working. You know, I've got security plans. In my entire life I have never done one thing wrong in any way, shape or form. I respect the government; I respect the government offices. I respected the Congressional bodies, the executive bodies, everybody. I've worked for benefits for this government to a degree; and to hear this and ­
MR. TRAFICANT: And to be threatened that if you don't lie, you're going to go to jail, that doesn't sound American, does it?
MR. DETOR: It's not. It absolutely is ­
MR. TRAFICANT: And that's the bottom line, isn't it, Richard?
MR. DETOR: Yep.
MR. TRAFICANT: Okay. Well, listen. If you file that suit, that suit should also be filed against Cafaro when you do it, or do you have one filed against him?
MR. DETOR: I've got one filed against him now. And the other thing that I was requested to do was drop my charges against Cafaro or settle it because they did not want me in court with Cafaro before this case.
MR. TRAFICANT: You know why? They know that J.J. is a liar. J.J. called them a liar on the stand in the Chance trial, and this is what they're worried about it. This is why they got to have somebody. They know what they're doing and it's completely illegal. They're forcing you not to, in fact, make yourself whole over an illegal act by Cafaro. He broke the law in Virginia.
MR. DETOR: Yeah, what they have is ­ well, I've got him (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he was writing all these bad checks, and I had even gone to the Commonwealth attorney to make sure that nobody had given their (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah, and here they are trying to protect Cafaro because Cafaro to save his own ass from perjury is lying about me.
MR. DETOR: What kind of witness does Cafaro really make when the reality comes out that the guy's lying ­
MR. TRAFICANT: Well, he's going to have Al Lang to make him look like he's telling the truth, but they can't handle the fact that you are so upright and upstanding a man of integrity, and it's going to blow their case; do you understand?
MR. DETOR: Yeah, they tried to tear me apart, IRS. They tried then saying that I committed fraud in order to obtain my house, which is nonsense because the bank told them I qualified for the house before I even moved. I was all prequalified. They tried to tell me that I was trying to support my wife's lavish lifestyle. They had no idea that my wife has worked 20 years, worked her way through college and that her family is very financially well off; and we have never sought money from anybody. And when I moved from New Jersey, I was carefully, carefully debt free and had no obligations to anybody; and the thing about having to commit fraud with a bank in order to obtain a mortgage is pure nonsense. That's where they've gone. They've gone after me in every way, shape or form.
MR. TRAFICANT: And Cafaro lied to you from day one, didn't he?
MR. DETOR: Yes, he did.
MR. TRAFICANT: And everything he said was a lie?
MR. DETOR: And I have numerous other witnesses where he lied to them. He lied about their employment.
MR. TRAFICANT: Who were some of those witnesses?
MR. DETOR: You got Lonnie Sikowski, 30 years at the FAA. You got Walt Allison, former CIA, top level clearances. You have Amanda Simon. You've got a guy named Jim Phillips who sold the airplane to Cafaros, and then they try to say they're not responsible when I was right there in a meeting where they said it was Cafaro Company's. See, they're using it against me saying that they're not Cafaro Company. (Names are phonetic spellings)
MR. TRAFICANT: Have your attorney send me a list of those names, too. Listen, I'm going to let you go, but keep in mind I'm going to be calling you because I'm taking this son of a bitch to a hearing.
MR. DETOR: Like I said, I can only tell the truth. I fear of my children's lives. I'm scared to death.
MR. TRAFICANT: You're going to be subpoenaed by me.
MR. DETOR: Do it through the attorney.
MR. TRAFICANT: I will.
MR. DETOR: The threats and intimidation; I'm willing to go the media. I'm willing to go anyplace, you know.
MR. TRAFICANT: File your lawsuit and go to the media and say in their zeal to get Traficant, they wanted me to lie. That's the bottom line; and they pressured me to lie and made it known very clearly from what you told me that if I lie, all my problems would go way.
MR. DETOR: I didn't lie. They wanted me to. I refused. I just said I keep calm. I've discussed it with my wife. I discussed it with other associates. They said that I was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the IRS. I basically couldn't even speak, and my family members sat there with me, and they said, Rick, we know you; you won't lie; you don't lie; don't lie. Don't be coerced into lying. I said they're telling me they're going to ruin my life if I don't.
I basically am at a breaking point. I'm mentally running, I mean to tell you the truth. I'm really to just go ahead and blow my head off. It is so bad, if it wasn't for my kids and the strain it would have on my kids, I'd be gone.
MR. TRAFICANT: Richard, why don't you go public. Talk to your attorney; go public, file the lawsuit when you do, and I'm calling for a hearing on his conduct, on Morford's conduct. Listen to me carefully and you won't have any more problems because the truth sets us free.
MR. DETOR: Yes, it does.
MR. TRAFICANT: I'll get back to you. Thanks, big guy. All right. Have your attorney call me. Is he involved with any law firm or is that his firm?
MR. DETOR: Plato Cacberis is in Monica Lewinsky's attorney.
MR. TRAFICANT: He was.
MR. DETOR: Yes.
MR. TRAFICANT: How do I reach him, his own number in the phone book?
MR. DETOR: Yes, that phone number I just gave you.
MR. TRAFICANT: Very good.
MR. DETOR: All right.
MR. TRAFICANT: Thanks, guy. Have him send me the documents. Bye now.
MR. DETOR: Bye.
MR. TRAFICANT: That was Richard Detor,. This is Wednesday, August 1, 2001, and it's approximately 1:18 p.m. This conversation involved the behavior of the government, the FBI, and U.S. Attorneys and their extortion.

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
I HEREBY CERTIFY that the above and foregoing is a true and correct transcription of the tape-recorded conversation represented to be recorded on August 1, 2001. This record was prepared from a tape recording provided by Congressman James A. Traficant, Jr.

Lisa C. Nagy-Baker
Registered Diplomate Reporter
Notary Public, State of Ohio
My Commission Expires 12/03/03


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News
KEYWORDS: craigmorford; jamestraficant; richarddetor
MR. DETOR: I've been threatened with the IRS. They told me that the IRS was immediately going to investigate me and that they were holding the IRS off, and I've been threatened with going and being six weeks in trial. They realize that I would lose my security licenses and I would lose my (UNINTELLIGIBLE) license if their were any kind of a Federal charge if found guilty, which would reasonably come, in all likelihood. And they have called and been on me and tried every threat, and they've gone all through my wife, what kind of salary, why I bought the house I bought, why I drive the kind of car I drive, you know, what my background is. It has just been a nightmare of unbelievable proportions. I really feel that I'm living in Red China.

MR. TRAFICANT: Okay. Let me ask you this. They more or less said to you that they wanted you to lie, didn't they?

MR. DETOR: What they did is when they asked the question, they say, well, this is what you're saying; and they change what you're saying; and you stop and you go, no, that is not what I am saying.

MR. TRAFICANT: They want you to more or less admit to the way they're interpreting it, which would be a lie, wouldn't it?

MR. DETOR: Yes.

MR. TRAFICANT: But they give you the impression that if you more or less accept their version, you'll have no more problems.

MR. DETOR: Give immunity. They won't get the IRS. No questions. No ifs ands or buts. I'm dealing with an attorney named Plato Cacberis, right their in Washington; and I was dealing with one law firm. I said this is not acceptable. This is not the United States. They can't sit there and try to ask me to lie. They can't even suggest it. They told me they subpoenaed all my bank records in the blind and all my IRS stuff. You know, I mean I've listened to one story after another from the Assistant U.S. Attorney.

Q What was his name?

MR. DETOR: Morford.

MR. TRAFICANT: Yeah. He's the one doing the threatening?

MR. DETOR: Yeah.

MR. TRAFICANT: And he basically wants you to lie, and he'll let you alone, won't he?

MR. DETOR: Yes.

And Craig Morford is now being considered for appointment to U.S. Attorney? BEAM ME UP!!!

1 posted on 08/07/2002 5:41:24 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: PJ-Comix
If I am not mistaken, threatening a witness with the IRS is a felony, is it not? If so, Ashcroft has a sworn duty to take action on this.
2 posted on 08/07/2002 6:02:36 PM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
No. The DOJ is in the process of recommending Morford for PROMOTION.
3 posted on 08/07/2002 6:03:56 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: PJ-Comix
This tape "supplied by Mr Traficant" is chock full of self-serving, manipulative baloney, proving exactly nothing.

It is unfortunate that Traficant speaks many political truths, but is a corrupt bottom feeder.

Conservatives should run away from him at least ... if not loudly condemn him.

4 posted on 08/07/2002 6:15:09 PM PDT by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: PJ-Comix
bump
5 posted on 08/07/2002 6:20:34 PM PDT by Raymond Hendrix
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
Do you realise that all of Traficant's major contributors were audited by the IRS? All I'm asking for is an investigation. I'm not even talking high profile. If nothing vindicates him, ok.
6 posted on 08/07/2002 6:21:46 PM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
IF that tape was such baloney, why didn't the 'honorable' members of the hearing allow more witnesses? It looks like a railroad job best I can tell. Don't be surprised if he gets re-elected from jail. Then they can't remove him again, not unless something new happens. It would be quite a fiasco.
7 posted on 08/07/2002 6:26:09 PM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
This tape "supplied by Mr Traficant" is chock full of self-serving, manipulative baloney, proving exactly nothing.

Just how did Traficant force Detor to say the following:

MR. DETOR: I've been threatened with the IRS. They told me that the IRS was immediately going to investigate me and that they were holding the IRS off, and I've been threatened with going and being six weeks in trial. They realize that I would lose my security licenses and I would lose my (UNINTELLIGIBLE) license if their were any kind of a Federal charge if found guilty, which would reasonably come, in all likelihood. And they have called and been on me and tried every threat, and they've gone all through my wife, what kind of salary, why I bought the house I bought, why I drive the kind of car I drive, you know, what my background is. It has just been a nightmare of unbelievable proportions. I really feel that I'm living in Red China.

8 posted on 08/07/2002 6:28:01 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
This tape is as manipulative as any that comes from somebody wearing a wire. That's the whole idea. You want to coax out as much information as you can, so it gets on tape. I don't see where Traficant is asking this guy to lie. Rather I see Traficant trying to get this guy Detor to articulate in his own words as much information as possible. Traficant does ssem to get a little pushy in spots (I can't believe Detor couldn't figure out he was being taped) but that's the nature of the beast.
9 posted on 08/07/2002 6:38:24 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: PJ-Comix; Alamo-Girl
In a statement, Plato Cacheris said: "We, as counsel for Monica Lewinsky, have reached an agreement today that for her full and truthful testimony she will receive transactional immunity in this case."

10 posted on 08/07/2002 6:39:35 PM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March

Do you realise that all of Traficant's major contributors were audited by the IRS? All I'm asking for is an investigation. I'm not even talking high profile. If nothing vindicates him, ok.

So what if all his major contributors were audited? That is a separate issue.

Whether his contributors were audited has nothing to do with this tape ... a conversation between two criminals who are eager to exonerate each other under circumstances which bogusly strive to seem "real." Apparently these two con artists have succeeded in fooling some folks.

11 posted on 08/07/2002 6:56:28 PM PDT by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
Funny how Morford has presented NO PHYSICAL evidence in this case. However, he has presented the testimony of a perjurer known as John Cafaro. So was Cafaro lying before or was he lying now or both times?
12 posted on 08/07/2002 6:59:12 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: PJ-Comix
Just how did Traficant force Detor to say the following ... [self serving blather]

Traficant did not need to "force" anything.

These are two criminals helping each other out. It is the most usual thing in the world for criminals to claim they are being railroaded ... the truth of their crimes is very helpful in "railroading" them.

Traficant uses political truths to garner sympathy. In this respect, he has always treated conservatives as chumps.

14 posted on 08/07/2002 7:04:23 PM PDT by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
Traficant not railroaded? Funny but the husband of the Judge in his case had business dealings with the prosecution's chief witness (Cafaro). Why did the judge not RECUSE herself from the case?
15 posted on 08/07/2002 7:07:30 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: Lancey Howard
This tape is as manipulative as any that comes from somebody wearing a wire. That's the whole idea. You want to coax out as much information as you can, so it gets on tape. I don't see where Traficant is asking this guy to lie.

If you notice, Traficant coaxes ZERO from his fellow criminal. It is a criminal love-fest, where they both blame the gov't for their misdeeds ... superficially attractive to conservatives who are rightly sceptical of gov't ... but a load a baloney which should be condemned by conservatives.

16 posted on 08/07/2002 7:07:58 PM PDT by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: Urbane_Guerilla; PJ-Comix
If this case is appealed and won by JT I suspect Urbane_Guerilla could be be named as an accomplice in that U_G is leaving enough evidence on this post to convict him.
17 posted on 08/07/2002 7:16:05 PM PDT by It'salmosttolate
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To: It'salmosttolate
If this case is appealed and won by JT I suspect Urbane_Guerilla could be be named as an accomplice in that U_G is leaving enough evidence on this post to convict him.

Pardon? Would you care to explain yourself? "Accomplice" to what? And what "evidence"? And convict me of what?

I am curious when someone accuses me of criminal acts.

18 posted on 08/07/2002 7:22:50 PM PDT by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: PJ-Comix
MR. DETOR: Give immunity. They won't get the IRS. No questions. No ifs ands or buts. I'm dealing with an attorney named Plato Cacberis, right their [sic] in Washington; and I was dealing with one law firm. I said this is not acceptable....

Plato was Moanica's attorney for awhile if I'm not mistaken.

19 posted on 08/07/2002 7:25:17 PM PDT by Fred Mertz
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
I apologize for and amend my previous statements. I have no proof Mr Detor is or was a criminal. My thoughtless mistake.
20 posted on 08/07/2002 7:30:43 PM PDT by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
I am saying that IF JT appeals, wins, and finds criminal behavior by the gov't, ie destroying evidence, and you are doing all you can to continue to cover it up, you could be an accomplice to a crime. Wheather you are just someone who doesn't like JT or you are agov't employee would make the difference to a jurry.
21 posted on 08/07/2002 7:30:47 PM PDT by It'salmosttolate
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To: PJ-Comix; small voice in the wilderness; Arthur Wildfire! March; MinuteGal; big bad easter bunny; ..
I assume this was not admitted in trial? Or was it.

This article, from last August, is a must read.

22 posted on 08/07/2002 7:31:31 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: PJ-Comix
A judge would say, "Counsellor, you are leading the witness." How many times in this tape did Traficant attempt to put words in Detor's mouth? How many times did you detect real concern in Traficant's questioning for Detor's plight. Did he not turn each of Detor's complaints into another plea for Deator to do something for him?

In my opinion you are making a fool of yourself for this scuzzy criminal.

23 posted on 08/07/2002 7:40:08 PM PDT by billhilly
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To: an amused spectator
Thanks for the heads up!
24 posted on 08/07/2002 7:59:51 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: dubyaismypresident
Detore didn't testify at the trial. Given that he would take the 5th, the judge wouldn't allow him on the stand. And I don't believe this was admitted as evidence because there's no possibility Detore could be cross-examined.
25 posted on 08/07/2002 8:07:00 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw
Hopefully he can be cross-examined during the appeal. I'd like them to get out all the truth.

Let the chips fall where they may.

26 posted on 08/07/2002 8:09:10 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: dubyaismypresident
He won't be testifying during the appeal. The appellate case consists of briefs and possibly oral arguments based on what's set out in the appellate briefs, but no testimony from witnesses. Even if Traficant puts this into his appellate case, the court of appeals is going to ignore it because Detore did not testify during the trial.

It's only if the court of appeals (or Supremes, if Traficant gets them to take the case) orders a retrial would Detore get a chance to testify--and he could still invoke the 5th.

27 posted on 08/07/2002 8:13:03 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw
Thanks for the legal expertise.
28 posted on 08/07/2002 8:16:13 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: dubyaismypresident; PJ-Comix
"...a must read."

Reads more like a depositon by a non-attorney...and a very self-serving one at that. Even at that, I don't see where it exonerates Traficant in the slightest, although it may provide grounds for some sort of appeal if Detor's testimony was critical in convicting Traficant.

PJ...I didn't follow the trial closely at all, did Detor testify? And if he did, was his testimony critical in convicting Traficant. If not, how does this transcript provide any proof of Traficant's innocence?

FReegards...MUD

29 posted on 08/07/2002 8:21:33 PM PDT by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
He did not testify at Traficant's trial.
30 posted on 08/07/2002 8:24:41 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: dubyaismypresident
Then I don't see where this transcript helps Traficant make a case for his innocence; although it could get Morford and others in trouble for prosecutorial misconduct.

FReegards...MUD

31 posted on 08/07/2002 8:30:06 PM PDT by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
If Morford got others to lie (by threating to unleash the IRS on them) and if he did that to Detore (again I say if) it wouldn't be a leap to say he may have done it to other witnesses. Between that and Judge Well's husband's business relationship with witness JJ Cafaro. This could not have been a fair trial.

I will grant you I used a lot of IF's

32 posted on 08/07/2002 8:32:05 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: dubyaismypresident
"If Morford got others to lie (by threatening to unleash the IRS on them)..."

Granted, if those other folks' testimony was used to convict Traficant, an appeal would have to be granted to Traficant. Now you've got me using that big "IF"...LOL!!

FReegards...MUD

33 posted on 08/07/2002 8:37:04 PM PDT by Mudboy Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
Granted, if those other folks' testimony was used to convict Traficant, an appeal would have to be granted to Traficant. Now you've got me using that big "IF"...LOL!!

Given that there was zero physical evidence....not one fingerprint or taped conversation, all he could be convicted on was the testimony of the government's witnesses.

I hope he gets his appeal and may the chips fall where they may.

34 posted on 08/07/2002 8:41:48 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: dubyaismypresident
No, there wasn't a shred of physical evidence. Zero. And this "case" against Traficant smells because of it.

Of course, who needs actual physical evidence when moralistic posturing will do?

35 posted on 08/07/2002 11:28:10 PM PDT by Reactionary
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To: dubyaismypresident
For a humorous take on Morford's (and Judge Wells') corruption, take a look HERE.
36 posted on 08/08/2002 4:28:40 AM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: dubyaismypresident
W, you're working too hard. You can take me off your ping list. I'm pretty good at finding what I need and you're half of my comments (I'm a lonely guy, but not too lonely).
37 posted on 08/08/2002 9:10:30 AM PDT by breakem
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To: breakem
You got it.
38 posted on 08/08/2002 9:14:38 AM PDT by NeoCaveman
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To: Reactionary
There is a poll going on now over whether Traficant should be allowed to run for Congress from jail.

Vote HERE.

39 posted on 08/08/2002 4:06:02 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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