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A friendly reminder: Bill O'Reilly takes aim at Saddam Hussein, Gerhard Schroeder
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Thursday, August 8, 2002 | Bill O'Reilly

Posted on 08/07/2002 11:18:32 PM PDT by JohnHuang2

There is a life lesson in watching how America's alleged allies are dealing with the Saddam Hussein situation. Just this week, Germany and Saudi Arabia said flat out that the United States could expect no help from them in attempting to remove the Iraqi tyrant. The Saudi behavior was predictable, as that nation has proved over and over it will not cooperate with America's war on Islamic terror. But Germany's stance is extremely interesting.

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is up for re-election this fall and things are not looking good for the big burgomaster. He is running behind in the polls to a conservative candidate, and his only hope is to galvanize the anti-American German left. So Schroeder is putting his political career ahead of doing the right thing – supporting his friends the Americans.

There is no question that Saddam Hussein is a murderous thug. He has started two wars, gassed Kurdish children, fired Scud missiles at Israeli civilians, and killed and tortured thousands of his own people – including his son-in-law. According to defectors, Saddam has highly paid scientists working on biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Does anyone believe the man is not capable of handing over deadly germs to al-Qaida operatives?

Still, we hear the drumbeat of skepticism about Saddam's intentions and capabilities. This same drumbeat was heard 65 years ago in Germany itself. It was in the late 1930s that journalists like William Shirer began reporting on the murderous intentions of Adolph Hitler. Yet many refused to believe the Third Reich was bent on world domination and savagery. President Franklin Roosevelt and Ambassador Joseph Kennedy scoffed at early reports of mass executions by the SS and the Gestapo. Millions of Americans wanted to see more "proof."

Saddam Hussein is not nearly as powerful as Hitler was, but his mindset is similar. He hates the Jews, hates the decadent West, hates just about everyone. Yet millions clamor for more evidence that Saddam is a danger.

Of course, this is foolish and dangerous. And it is exactly the way the United States handled Osama bin Laden in the '90s. The Clinton administration thought it could contain bin Laden after he ordered the bombings of two American Embassies in Africa and the attack on the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen. The men captured and tried for those crimes gave up bin Laden, but the United States did not aggressively go after him because of the perceived political damage killing him would have caused in the Arab world and Afghanistan.

U.S. intelligence rightly concludes that it is just a matter of time before Saddam finds a delivery system for whatever weapons he is able to develop. We know from Czech intelligence that one of Saddam's top spies met with 9-11 hijacker Mohammed Atta in Prague a few months before the attack. We also know from Russian intelligence that former Soviet weapons experts are on the Iraqi payroll.

Gerhard Schroeder knows all this as well. But he is calculating that Saddam will not attack his country, and Schroeder seems to be ready to accept a first-strike by Saddam somewhere else. Danke, Gerhard.

For sheer, colossal ingratitude, it is hard to beat Germany. America rebuilt that country after World War II and protected the majority of Germans from the Soviet Union. We have spent trillions over there and now, when we need them, the Germans are not there for us. This is a very vivid lesson that generosity does not always swing both ways.

Even if Schroeder and his countrymen have doubts about the wisdom of America's Saddam policy, they should give the United States the benefit of the doubt. Don't they owe America that much after all it has done for them?

It disturbs me greatly that so many people all over the world are willing to play Russian roulette with the likes of Saddam Hussein. They are comfortable betting that this madman might not strike them. That if he attacks, somebody else will bear the brunt of the carnage. This is cowardly and unacceptable after 3,000 American civilians were killed last September.

The Gerhard Schroeders of the world are terrorist enablers. There is no reason on this earth why a man as dangerous as Saddam Hussein should be able to continue to operate. The rest of the world may not have the courage to deal with Saddam but America knows that with weapons of mass destruction a "one strike and you're out" policy is simply irresponsible. Saddam has to go. And so does Schroeder.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
Thursday, August 8, 2002

Quote of the Day by F.J. Mitchell

1 posted on 08/07/2002 11:18:32 PM PDT by JohnHuang2
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Even if Schroeder and his countrymen have doubts about the wisdom of America's Saddam policy, they should give the United States the benefit of the doubt. Don't they owe America that much after all it has done for them?

The Germans "owe" intelligent dialogue and discussion. Not blind obedience. As a German radio commentator said to O'Reilly on Tuesday's show, a proper ally brings up the possibility of alternative courses of actions. It doesn't simply rubber-stamp the "senior partner" in whatever that State chooses to do. And Germans have earned the ability to be skeptical about how war may, or may not, solve matters.

O'Reilly steamrollered right over all this, not wanting anyone to get in the way with his blasts against the supposedly puerile and fraidycat Germans, those "ingrates." Anyone who dissents from the let's-rush-to-war viewpoint was connected, not so subtly, by O'Reilly with those who may have sympathized with Hitler.

Bill O'Reilly has become a hectoring demagogue who is patently uninterested in discovering the truth, or in weighing alternatives he may disagree with. Nowhere is this more evident, these days, than on how he lectures anyone who disagrees with him on TV, as he redefines "no spin" as "no dissent from my talking points." He has become painful to watch, or even to listen to in the background when I'm facing the computer and reading FR on my monitor screen.

By the way, on the same Tuesday show, Michael Newdow stood up to O'Reilly and said, in effect: "No, you're not going to put words in my mouth to suggest I'm lying about my daughter (in the Pledge case), and I did use her situation in public school as a matter of gaining legal standing, and it was within my parental prerogatives to do so." He was confident, wouldn't give any quarter to O'Reilly's obsessions about judging his personal behavior, and O'Reilly the bully backed down. I admire Newdow for that, whether or not I agree with him otherwise (I mostly do agree).

2 posted on 08/08/2002 1:35:50 AM PDT by Greybird
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To: JohnHuang2
Funny, the old Cold War enemy is now the US friend, first to offer aid, even before the British. The old Cold War closest allies are all fair weather friends at best. In other words...things are returning to normal...now that the old ideological struggle is gone and the natural order of nations is back. The US needs to relearn these lessons. Who was the US's former pre WW1 friends...those are going to again be it's closest allies...and most of W. Europe was never on that list.
3 posted on 08/08/2002 1:42:08 AM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Greybird
As a German radio commentator said to O'Reilly on Tuesday's show, a proper ally brings up the possibility of alternative courses of actions.

Option 1: We can take out Saddam.

Option 2: We can continue to die.

4 posted on 08/08/2002 4:16:08 AM PDT by TomB
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To: Greybird; JohnHuang2; swarthyguy; TomB; Thud; goodieD; PsyOp; VaBthang4; okimhere
I totally agree with you when you say that what the German's owe is intelligent dialogue and discussion not blind obedience! Although i was personally a little shocked initially at the fervence of the German denial of aid to the US, after some thought it dawned on me one of the reasons they said no. Simply because Germany is a sovereign nation with self government and independent from the domain of external nations. Secondly Germany would be sending its citizen soldiers to help in the fight against Saddam, which means Schroeder would have to have a viable reason to tell the German citizens why he was sending their sons and daughters into the fray of war, and it seems like Schroeder did not find a valid reason for one cause or another!

Also just as the US did not involve itself in the fracas that afflicted Germany in the 70s and 80s (the Red Brigade terrorists that were virtually bombing and shooting all and sundry in W. Germany) because we did not feel that was pertinent to the US in any way, maybe the German Chancellor believes Iraq is not pertinent to Germany and hence he might have distanced himself. Which is interesting since he seems to be for us 100% in the war against terrorism, but he must see Iraq as moot for reasons only he can explain.

And think about Israel when they went into the Palestinian enclaves a couple of months ago and Bush was telling the Israeli leadership to cease its activities. I remember this Israeli government official coming up on Fox then and saying our POTUS's statements were for naught because Israel was self-governed and needed to do what was best for ITS interests, and at that time the Israeli leadership felt heading to Jenin and similar cess pools of terror was the way to go. The thing with the greatest impact that guy said was that sovereign nations have to ensure their own best interests before ensuring the best interests of others, and that Israel had to go and take care of these terrorists instead of ceasing just because GW told them too (he also went ahead to say him and his govt were still with the US, but that GW needed to let Israel take care of a threat that was killing their citizens every other day instead of ceasing just to appease the international public and garner support for the US led war on terror).

Hence I would say the German position is similar. Does Schroeder automatically follow what we say or does he first listen to what the German people want and then weigh that against international interests (the US included)? I guess Schroeder went with listening to Germany first and the rest later.

And although personally i feel he 'abandoned' us i believe that in his position i would do the same exact thing. Up to now we have not released evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Iraq has anything to do with global terror, and although I personally think Saddam might have had something to do with terror the german chancellor Schroeder needs more than mere assertions from our White House for him to send German soldiers into war. After all if any died he would have to explain to his public why they died, and for now he really has no way of doing that.

And i think additional reasons for his actions are that German unemployment has gone up for the 17th month in a row up to the current 9.7%, plus he faces re-election this September (22nd) which means he is under added pressure to take care of national politics before tackling 'international' issues. And his rivals are already attacking him for 'leaving the german people behind,' which is why i guess he is taking a Germany first objective. That (politics) coupled with the lack of concrete evidence against Iraq is probably why he backed off.

I guess that is why he said, and i quote: I will not help the White House go off on an adventure!

Actually the thing that worries me is the current British position! Although the UK seems at present to be for us there have been some rumblings and some shifts that have been rather 'interesting' if i can sue that word.

A good example is when Foreign Office minister Mike O'Brien said the international position would be "very different" if Baghdad agreed to readmit U.N. weapons inspectors. Asked by BBC Radio 4's Today programme about the likelihood of military action against Iraq, he said: "It is not imminent and it is not inevitable. Nobody wants war for the sake of it. "We understand there are issues in relation to Iraq. In particular we need to make sure the inspectors go in. "The ball is now in Saddam Hussein's court. He must ensure that the inspectors go into Iraq and that international law is complied with." Then he added war with Iraq is not ineveitable.

On top of that polls show most Britons are against war with Iraq, which could prove to be a troubling political front for Blair. Which is why Mudhafar Amin, the Iraqi representative in England, is meeting with the British government because he says that '"Nobody supports the United States except Britain.If Britain refused to go along with the United States' war against Iraq then I think the American administration would find it very difficult to go ahead."

We do not need any allies, the only reason we use them is for 'international reasons!' We could have taken care of Iraq solo in '91, and we can take care of it alone today if we wanted to. However to make the rest of the world not think we are a hegemony we are usually 'forced' to get allies. And it seems there has been a rash of withdrawal of support for us, and that is something we should rectify (even if we really do not need to). We should.

And one way is for the POTUS to release whatever information, if any, he has against Saddam and do it soon. That would silence all the pro-Iraqi detractors and enforce our zeal around the world. Without that there is the strong chance that even Great Britain, our vaunted ally, will back off.

And although we really do not need anyone such a position would not be prudent in any way.

5 posted on 08/08/2002 6:36:15 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Greybird; All
And dealing with O'Reilly, i enjoy watching him, especially since he is not ranting forth Liberal support like most 'other' channels! However i have major beef with O'Reilly because of what he says. He says :'This is a no-spin zone.'

Based on what i have seen on Mr O'Reilly's show he actually does a lot of spin, more than almost any other person i know (the thing with O'Reilly is that he does not go straight into propaganda, that he does not. But spin he does).

He never seems to think any other viewpoint but his is correct, and i have seen him at varios times totally spin something out of context. And whenever someone seems to be getting the upper hand he at times changes the subject or flips the script. Which is ok since it makes the program very interesting (that coupled with his 'go get 'em persona and aggressive commentary), but he should not say his show is a no-spin zone. It is not. Actually him uttering that statement always makes me smirk, and the word oxymoron keeps flashin in large neon signs in my head.

Actually i just checked out the synonyms for Spin and they are as follows: slant, position, stance, partiality, prejudice, preconceived notion, foregone conclusion, predisposition, bias, preconception, opinion, perspective.

Now, from the above words, does mr .O'Reilly spin or not? Does he have a 'foregone conclusion?' Does he have a certain 'stance?' Does he depict a certain 'predisposition?' Does he have a certain slant, a given perspective, does he show a tendency towards having preconceived notions?

Hmmm, to use a phrase mr O'Reilly seems to enjoy saying, 'I say, you decide!'

6 posted on 08/08/2002 6:54:50 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Geez, relax. It's O'Reillys show, he can decsribe it anyway he wants.
7 posted on 08/08/2002 6:59:59 AM PDT by over3Owithabrain
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To: over3Owithabrain
LOL, i am fine with senor O'Reilly and i love his show. I just find it rather hilarious when he says with his baritone voice: "You are entering a No-Spin zone!.'

That always makes me either have a smirk, break out in giggles, or just burst out in outright laughter.

I especially like the seriousness in his face when he says it. As if it was gospel truth (or maybe due to the fact he knows he is spinning spin but he has to have a facade or else even he will burst out laughing). I can actually swear i have seen moments when his eyes start to sparkle as if in silent laughter when he utters that phrase (or maybe it is because i am laughing so hard that i see his eyes laughing when they are not).

Hmmmm. :D

8 posted on 08/08/2002 7:05:55 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: over3Owithabrain
And what is even funnier is that everyone spins. That is a fact. Some just put more spin or their spin, some turn it into outright propaganda, while others keep as as low as they can. However i virtually every conversation everyone has an opinion or a preconceived notion which they consciously or unconsciously subscribe to and bring out, and in essence that is spin.

Hey, i even admit to spin! Right now i am trying to assert that O'Reilly spins in his no-spin show, and in the process of writing this down i am spinning in the process.

That is not to say it is not true, it just means there is a point i am trying to prove and by the very process am spinning stuff. Why? Because i have this 'position' that O'Reilly spins, and that notion is spin in itself.

However O'Reilly's spin is simply amazing (although very entertaining which means Mr O'Reilly, if you are reading this, spin spin spin away).

9 posted on 08/08/2002 7:11:14 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: JohnHuang2
Isle Ike Billow Rye Lee !!! {How's that for keepin' it pithy ???)
10 posted on 08/08/2002 8:12:41 AM PDT by GeekDejure
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To: Greybird
FWIW I believe that dialogue is great when you have a rational adversary. When an opponent demonstrates over decades that they have but one aim and that is your annihilation, the options for the situation are drastcally reduced to "them or us." Even if we could find some way of pressuring the specific Arab countries into compliance, they would just be waiting for another opportunity. They aren't "sneaky," they've told us, "we want your defeat and elimination." They teach their children in mosques and saturate their populace with the appropriate propaganda until, like zombies, they know only one thing: death to America, America is evil and so on. There is a time for constructive, diplomatic dialogue, this is not it.
11 posted on 08/08/2002 9:05:02 AM PDT by elephantlips
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To: Greybird
Did Iraq start two wars? Did Iraq use unconventional weapons on the Iranians? Did the leader of Iraq have his son-in-law killed? Is the leader of Iraq seeking weapons of mass destruction? Is the leader of Iraq seeking a delivery system for weapons of mass destruction? Has the German business community not sell weapons to Iraq after the 1991 war?

O'Reilly, for all his faults, is right on. Germany owes us, big time!!! But this is a good thing also. It shows who your friends are. So here we are, the United States, about to get into a bar fight, and no one has our back. That's fine. It will take a little longer but we can do it. Then we turn our attention to thus who deserted us. You are either with us or with the terrorists. Those words will come back to haunt certain people and countries.

12 posted on 08/08/2002 9:22:05 AM PDT by 7thson
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To: JohnHuang2
Has Germany forgotten how we rebuilt them after we kicked their Nazi A$$es? I guess so.

Next time the Germans need help, let's just let 'em fry and drown in their own liberalism. Future problems solved.....

13 posted on 08/08/2002 9:51:42 AM PDT by AmericanCompatriot
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To: spetznaz
My head is spinning...
14 posted on 08/08/2002 2:53:09 PM PDT by over3Owithabrain
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To: over3Owithabrain
:)
15 posted on 08/08/2002 3:11:57 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: AmericanCompatriot
My favorite quote from this weeks show:

"Blank you, Mr. Chancellor." -- FNC's Bill O'Reilly, on German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder coming out against an attack on Iraq, "O'Reilly Factor"


I almost stood up and cheered!
16 posted on 08/08/2002 3:38:21 PM PDT by knuckles
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To: spetznaz
"Also just as the US did not involve itself in the fracas that afflicted Germany in the 70s and 80s (the Red Brigade terrorists that were virtually bombing and shooting all and sundry in W. Germany) because we did not feel that was pertinent to the US in any way, maybe the German Chancellor believes Iraq is not pertinent to Germany and hence he might have distanced himself. Which is interesting since he seems to be for us 100% in the war against terrorism, but he must see Iraq as moot for reasons only he can explain."

Hold on there Pilgrim. I was stationed in Germany while the Red Brigades were running rampant from 80 to 83. We were involved up to our eyeballs fighting them because U.S. soldiers and installations were the primary targets of their chickenshit tactics. I can't begin to tell you the number of alerts we went on becasue of them. We even found one of their explosives planted on our airfield during a major gathering of senior NATO commanders. That statement you made is dead wrong.
17 posted on 08/09/2002 11:15:46 AM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp; All
We were involved up to our eyeballs fighting them because U.S. soldiers and installations were the primary targets of their chickenshit tactics.

I was not privy to that info Psyop and when i wrote that post i was not aware that the Red Bridage used to target our posts over there. The reason is that all the info i had on the R.B indicated that they used to target W. German targets that they did not 'deem' worthy to let live. For example how they would kidnap high ranking German diplomats using highly complex abduction strategies, use them as pawns in a bid to release some of their imprisoned, and then kill them and dump their bodies in some damp cellar or in a car trunk. If you do most 'conventional' research on the R.B the mention of US involvement in thwarting their activities is strangely absent.

The Red Brigades, in particular the Red Army Faction (the reason i emphasise this one is to differentiate it from the ones that used to be rife in Italy and concentrate on Germany) was merely the successor of the Baader-Meinhof gang which orginated as a student protest movement and grew into a mix of Marxism and Maoism!

Actually id di have some info on the RAF (Red Army Faction) attacks ont he US, but these started occuring later on in the life of the RAF. Reports list the RAF coming into being in the 1960's, and it is still in existence altough mostly in hiding. Their last known operation was in 1993 when they destroyed a prison that had just been built with 600 pounds of explosives (and a shhotout with GSG-9 operatives). And before that during the Gulf War they had shot up the US embassy in Bonn with assault rifle rounds.

Apart from that there is very little (actually nothing I could get) depicting the RAF as a big threat to the US. The official description of the RAF is 'an ideological armed cadre of Marxist Maoist adherents whoe are small and well-disciplined and carried out bombings, assasinations, robberies and kidnappings in a bid to further propaganda, logistical support and armed struggle in support of global communism. They concentrate on domestic targets, specializing in German security and Justice officials, and officials involved in German and European unification.'

The only reference to the US i saw was the attack on our embassy in Bonn during the Gulf war.

However since you were there in person your experience with them must be the most reliable (since after all when some kook comes at tries to plant explosives at your installation you immediately acquire first hand info on the group, whether or not that occurence is reported as it should). And obviously when i think of it if th RAF were advocates for communism that would make them automatic enemies of the US and the US installations in Germany then.

However when i initially wrote that post i was just going on what i had, however based ony our statements it makes sense that the RAF would target our installations. Why they are listed as 'purely domestic' is beyond my understanding. Maybe someones ele might have a better answer to that.

And by the way the post was merely my speculation on why Mr. Schroeder would be saying no to assisting us in the anti-Iraq war, and why he would go as far as saying he will not help the White House go on some 'adventure.' My inclusion of the Reds was just pure speculation on my part, as well as my assertions that it might be due to politics involving his re-election campaign this September as well as the lack of a definite body of evidence from GW to Germany. All of it was speculation. The German Chancellor's reasons might be totally different from the ones i listed ....who knows, he might just have woken up on the wrong side of his bed.

Anyway let me take this opportunity to apologze to you for not realizing your important work in Germany ('80-'83) where you were trying to negate the threat of the RAF. I did not mean to take away from your work. Hope you accept my apology.

18 posted on 08/09/2002 12:16:43 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
" I did not mean to take away from your work. Hope you accept my apology."

None needed. You are usually pretty well on target with your info. My post was meant as friendly correction not a torch job. Baader-Meinhoff and the red-brigades targeted NATO in general and Americans in particular. I heard that Delta trained and worked with GSG9 who had primary responsibilty for tracking them down and dealing with them.

On the day we had the bomb threat, I was coming on to base when I noticed an APC with a manned M-60 on top, and sand-bagged M2 .50 cal. off to one side of the gate (a bit more security than usual). An LT. and a Staff Sergeant were conducting vehicle searches. In the car ahead of me was a German national with a bunch of cardboard boxes in the back of his OPEL wagon (I recognized him as a civilian who worked at the PX).

The LT. told him that he needed to inspect the contents of the boxes. The German fellow, already upset at the long delay getting onto base, threw the car door open, knocking the LT back. The LT and the Ssgt. hit the ground, rolled and came up with their .45s drawn, the guys with the MGs racked the charging handles back and swung their weapons around. As my life flashed in front of my eyes I noticed that I was looking down the muzzle of the .50, who's round were a half-pound of trigger-pull from vaporizing the hapless PX employee before coming to rest in my vehicle. I managed not to wet my pants as I dove for the floor of my car. Our German friend suffered a loss of bladder control, however.

The Red Brigades bombed several US bases. The worst was when they exploded a bomb in the US military terminal at Frankfurt Intl. Airport where all new military personnel arrive in country.

Their favorite trick was to pack fire extinguishers with explosive and then swap them for the real ones in buildings they could gain access to, while posing as fire-marshalls or maintenance personnel.

They also planted fire-extinguisher bombs under cars in military housing areas. They killed or seriously injured one soldiers wife and kids and killed at least one soldier who was going to work in the morning.

Another incident in Germany was when one of our Generals had his car shot at with an RPG. As I recall, it hit the car but didn't seriously hurt anyone because the truck absorbed the blast.

There was also the Saturday night they called us all back to base on alert. A Red Brigade cell had stolen a Leopard II tank off of a rail car. The Germans keep their tanks armed with a full basic load of ammo when being transported. We dropped our beer, drove back to base and started arming a couple of Cobras to go and hunt them down. They later found the tank in barn with most of the ammo and machine guns stripped. They had apparantly tried to remove the main gun, too (after their miss with the RPG they probably figured they needed something bigger and more accurate).

Things were bad enough that U.S. soldiers were warned to use the buddy system when travelling or going out on the town. There had been attacks on individual soldiers caught alone, that were attributed to RB and their thug sympathizers. I have no idea how much, if any of this was ever reported at home, but I get the impression that, except for the attack at the airport in 81 (?), little was reported.

Regards, Psy.
19 posted on 08/09/2002 2:35:16 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
There was also the Saturday night they called us all back to base on alert. A Red Brigade cell had stolen a Leopard II tank off of a rail car. The Germans keep their tanks armed with a full basic load of ammo when being transported. We dropped our beer, drove back to base and started arming a couple of Cobras to go and hunt them down. They later found the tank in barn with most of the ammo and machine guns stripped. They had apparantly tried to remove the main gun, too (after their miss with the RPG they probably figured they needed something bigger and more accurate).

Things were bad enough that U.S. soldiers were warned to use the buddy system when travelling or going out on the town. There had been attacks on individual soldiers caught alone, that were attributed to RB and their thug sympathizers. I have no idea how much, if any of this was ever reported at home, but I get the impression that, except for the attack at the airport in 81 (?), little was reported.

-Psyop

All i have to say is Whoa! I have heard of some rather 'interesting' stuff, however someone stealing a fully armed tank (especially a Leopard 2) is something that you do not see everyday! And then trying to strip the main gun! Ai yi yi ......that is what i refer to as ambitious!

However what astonishes me is that most of the stuff you are saying is complete news to me! The only info i had about the Red Army Faction pertinent to US personel was the attack on our Bonn Embassy during the gulf war. Everything else refers to them as 'domestic' which is quite weird. If anything was reported it must have been 'watered down.'

However another strong possibility is that in 1981 i was only 2 years old (LOL) and although even as a child i was given high marks when it came to IQ and such stuff the fact still remains that when you are two years of age attacks by groups that go by the moniker 'Baader-Meinhoff' and Marxist-Maoist 'Red Army brigades' really does not have the same impact as an ice cream cone and a multi-colored ball(then multi-coloUred since i lived in Kenya ...for the British tradition and spirit mixed with the cacophonic medley African vivacity and heart)! When you are a kid you really do not follow everything that happens in the globe no matter what 'specialists' say.

Thus there is a great probability that i never got to see the info because i was still suckling and trying to wean on solid food! However i did an internet check and references to US attacks on US officials or installations that alluded to the Red Army faction was only the one i posted on the Bonn embassy attack! Why it is the only one i do not know.

Maybe some people who are supposed to be responsible for keeping such info in the public records probably decided that it was not relevant (which pisses me off since as you said American soldiers were wounded or killed over there).

20 posted on 08/09/2002 2:58:35 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: PsyOp
A Red Brigade cell had stolen a Leopard II tank off of a rail car.

Wow, stealing one of these seems to require a certain modicum of skill that most people simply do not possess (unless of course the German security was extremely lax .....which seems the case if they transport their L-2s fully loaded!!!!)

Imagine a kinetic energy projectile from that main gun! It will DEFINITELY do more damage than any RPG made by man!

21 posted on 08/09/2002 3:10:35 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Greybird
Actually, O'Reilly is right here.

Schroeder is trying to play up to the watermellons and Socialists back home in the Reichstag...

Don't forget, Germany has HUGE financial/business ties to Iraq...and a German company was working with Saddam to build a HUGE long-range cannon that was found during the weapons inspection. The shell were the size of a Volkswagon (no pun intended!)...reall. Look it up!

22 posted on 08/09/2002 3:30:03 PM PDT by Itzlzha
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To: spetznaz
I think you would probably have to do a Nexus search to find that stuff. The Internet was still the realm of government agencies and universities back then.

After looking at the Leo II pics, and after a bit more thought, It was probably a Leopard I that was taken. At that time, the German military's attitude towards the Russians and their Warsaw Pact lacky's was to keep their powder dry and muskets loaded at all times. Memories of the Eastern Front still haunted their senior commanders....

Generally their security made ours look pitiful, but I think what happened was that when the flat cars that the tanks were on pulled into a switching station for the night, a couple of brigade members dressed as rail workers slipped aboard one of the tanks, started it, and drove it off the side of the flat car into some nearby woods before anyone could stop them.

People do not realize just how real the threat was then. Our scout pilots used to train on the border by flying along until Pact ADA locked them up and then practiced using terrain to dodge and break the radar lock.

I went on one of those flights when the radar detector blared over the headset. I looked off to the right, and about 300 yards away was a ZSU 23-4 tracking us that had been hidden under some camo netting. Had it been a shooting war we'd have been a definite kill - shredded by a quad 23mm. That peaked my pucker factor.

Had Reagan not been elected and imediately started to build up our forces and install the Pershing missles, I feel that the Soviets would have decided to throw the dice and go for it. Those first two books by Clancy were spot on. We were vulnerable as hell and the Soviets knew it. They also had the nuclear wherewithal to make nuclear retaliation too risky for a panty-waist like Carter. They played him like a violin in all those arms limitation talks.
23 posted on 08/09/2002 4:12:58 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Wow!

Reading that post gave me the shivers when i realized that for you guys WW3 must have been hot and in progress. Playing chicken with ZSUs and radar locks is something that smacks of amazing daring to me. You guys must have been in a state of constant readiness for a Soviet push towards Western Europe.

Actually i did come across some documents that showed some in the Soviet hierachy had been planning a blitzkrieg style tank rush into Europe, with W. Germany being their first 'stop.' And that the Soviet maneuvre of always moving their MBTs on railtracks (to avoid our missiles from targeting their tanks) had started to drift in a stratagem pattern that would allow the armor to converge in a manner condusive to a sudden thrust.

On top of that i have seen reports that depicted how close a global nuclear conflagration came into becoming reality! For example how Soviet polar radar had locked on some cloud formation and thought it was an American ICBM surprise strike, and that only one guy stopped them from launching their own stuff (this guy, i forget his name for obvious reasons, actually started receiving 'thank you' cards from people in the West for averting a nuclear holocaust once his story was reported). Obviously the US also made similar 'errors' when it came to the confusion of cloud gatherings as Soviet SLBMs!

Anyway it must have been quite stressful to have served in certain sections of the military (eg the ones who actually knew what was going on or were in areas requiring constant vigilance). For you guys you must have been virtually in a state of war 24/7!

And then people over here would practice running under desks as if that would protect them from a thermonuclear detonation! I find it hilarious to tell you the truth when i see the tapes 'teaching' kids how to squat underneath their desks at school if 'they see a flash' or they hear a siren!

The stress must have been almost overwhelming, especially when you consider the foe then was the USSR not some jehadi camp in Afghanistan, and that the concept of M.A.D meant that even the 'winner' lost since there were enough ICBMS and SLBMs (and for you guys in W. Germany IRBMs) on both sides to ensure that even the 'winning' country got sufficient nukes to ensure life as they knew it ceased to exist.

Actually i find MAD to be an interesting concept since i guess it showed that the Soviets(as well as us) had the sense to not launch even preemptive strikes due to the fact of certain reprisal from the other camp. Imagine if some jehadi group like al queda got their mits on a tactical nuke! They would not hesitate to use it, even if it meant certain locales in the mid-east being turned into flat green glass by US reprisals! That is why i am somewhat glad it was the Soviets who were the 'uber-foe' instead of some Islamic nation that was trigger happy and willing to be accepted into 'Allah's bosom!'

But that is not to say the situation you guys faced was not frightening. I am pretty sure you garnered enough stories to write a book.

Anyways kudos for your great work doing your duty in a place that was under constant threat, and managing to do it and do it well.

24 posted on 08/09/2002 5:14:45 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Speaking as a Brit, here's how I think the vast majority here see it. Not the Guardian readers, but say the average Telegraph or Daily Mirror reader.

We actually like fighting, we're extremely good at it on the sort of scale where we normally work and our military in general does better than our soccer teams when it does it's stuff. So basically, given the right proposition, most people here would be up for it in a heartbeat, as long as they were reasonably confident of a favourable outcome. They probably would particularly give a toss whether it was justified or not. Britain has traditionally been very pragmatic about these things. The oil reserves that bankers will actually lend money on (as opposed to the other kind) probably run out in a decade or two. Saudi is very unstable. Clearly there's an argument for taking Iraq away from Saddam.

We just want to see a plan that's actually viable, given the other considerations. Iraq isn't just another godforsaken country in Africa where we can all just walk away if our military presence there turns messy. It's the second largest, and potentially the largest source of the stuff that makes the world economy work. We *have* to have a plan that makes sense for what we do after we've stuck Saddam's head on a pike.
25 posted on 08/09/2002 5:38:40 PM PDT by bernie_g
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To: bernie_g
I completely concur with what you are saying. And actually i took those polls that were saying 'most' Brits are against the war with Iraq with much more than a grain of salt! After all it is a tad bit too simple to 'alter' poll results to portray the image you want them to! They are too subjective.

However going to a more 'important' subject! It pertains to the following statement you made: ....in general does better than our soccer teams ........

Watch what you say, you are speaking to a rabid ardent fan of Arsenal F.C and i have been known to foam at my bits when someone says something that is not appropos about Arsenal! Especially my chums who seem to think (mistakenly ofcourse) that Manchester United is a better team! The sots! The only thing MU has is more funds, otherwise Arsenal rocks.

Anyway let me desist from my ramblings and get back to more pressing tasks.

Nice talking to you by the way. Since i left Kenya it is not everday i chit-chat with a Brit. Thus nice chatting with ya (as long as you are not a MU fan)!

:D

26 posted on 08/09/2002 5:58:43 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Liverpool :)
27 posted on 08/09/2002 6:05:30 PM PDT by bernie_g
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To: bernie_g
At least it is not MU. ;)
28 posted on 08/09/2002 6:17:14 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
The soviets did not believe in the MAD concept (the best explanation of this is Nixon's "The Real War", 1980). They also trained to use chemical weapons as part of their ordinary comabt doctrine. That is why we had a policy that first use of chemical weapons on their part would be treated as a nuclear attacke and retaliated to as such.

In fact, Nuclear weapons did not scare me all that much. I figured it would over with before I knew it. Chemical weapons, on the other hand, scared the heck out of us. Real nasty stuff. And except for the nerve agents, it killed you slowly and painfully.

29 posted on 08/09/2002 6:39:52 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: spetznaz
"WW3 must have been hot and in progress."

When I arrived in Germany in July of '81 I was assigned to an attack helicopter unit in the 3d ID (Mech). The Cobras assigned to us had tail numbers going back to 1968. They were G models with the 40mm grenade launcher and 7.62 mini-gun in the chin turret.

The opinion at that time was that if the Warsaw Pact attacked, we'd last about two weeks before the ammo ran out (if that). Earliest re-supply / re-enforcement (except for the 82d) was estimated at 4 to 5 weeks because of the shortage of air and sea-lift. It didn't take a genius to do that math.

And for those that knew anything about the Soviets, being a POW was not an option. Most of us grew our hair as long as we could, and made sure we knew the way south to switzerland. I had some high-school German and mad a point of becoming as fluent as I could so I could pass as a German national if it came to E&E. There was absolutely no confidence that we could hold off an invasion. The term "Window of Vulnerability" came about at this time and there is a book by the same name that explains it.

By the time I left in the summer of 83, that had all changed. We had new aircraft, Ammo stocks to last till resupply, and the knowledge that we at least stood a fighting chance. During that time Reagan also had the Pershing theater nuclear missles installed in Germany to counter the Soviet SR & MRBM's. Those who say that Reagan had nothing to do with winning the Cold War have not got a clue. The purpose of the Red Brigades was to disrupt this re-armament and turn German public opinion against the U.S. There were also daily rent-a-mob demonstrations against the installation of the Pershings. It almost worked. At one point Reagan quitely threatened to "bring the boys" home. We were actually ordered to start inventorying our equipment in preparation to come home. A week or two later the German Parliament signed on.

In 1980-85 the Soviets had reached their peak in terms of military technology applications. Their military had reached a use it or lose it proposition in terms of advantage. They had done all they could the technology they had stolen and their own industry could not take them further on its own. Meanwhile we were still armed with 50's and 60's military technology that was ten to fifteen years behind what they were fielding.

The Abrams M1, the Improved Cobra, the A-10 and other weapons systems that Reagan fast tracked to close the gap made a huge difference. That and the fact that Reagan proved willing to look them in the eye and not blink. In 1980 they had a clear military superiority. By 1983 we had parity. By 85 we were clearly superior. They could not keep up technologically (the Soviets took Stars Wars very seriously while scoffing at it in public and getting our libs to ridicule it). The Gulf War which pitted our stuff against theirs showed that.

Imagine if we had tried to fight the Gulf War without A-10's, M1 Abrams, Bradleys, Apaches, MLRS, Patriot Missles, etc., and I think you will see my point. And, Warsaw pact soldiers were far better trained in the use of their equipment than the Iraqi's were.
30 posted on 08/09/2002 8:28:16 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
I only have one word to say: Amazing!

I had no idea what you guys went through over there! It is amazing neyond words to say the truth.

And as for Prez. Reagan .....if he is not the best modern POTUS i do not know who is. Without him there is a big chance that the Soviets would have overrun Europe back in the eighties, or that the USSR would still be around and we would still be facing a real Red threat (the Soviets) instead of the fledgling underpowered 'Red' threat of today (China).

Reagan deserves accolades beyond words!

31 posted on 08/10/2002 12:32:34 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: VaBthang4
Hi Vab,

The following is one of the posts i have been getting from a Freeper called Psyop who served our country during the Cold War, and his posts on this thread have been very interesting.

And since i know of your past military service and some of the stuff you told me about your experience in the Gulf i thought you might want to peruse through some of this stuff. The following is the last post i got from Pysop ....follow it back for his other posts.

Freegards,

Spetz!

When I arrived in Germany in July of '81 I was assigned to an attack helicopter unit in the 3d ID (Mech). The Cobras assigned to us had tail numbers going back to 1968. They were G models with the 40mm grenade launcher and 7.62 mini-gun in the chin turret.

The opinion at that time was that if the Warsaw Pact attacked, we'd last about two weeks before the ammo ran out (if that). Earliest re-supply / re-enforcement (except for the 82d) was estimated at 4 to 5 weeks because of the shortage of air and sea-lift. It didn't take a genius to do that math.

And for those that knew anything about the Soviets, being a POW was not an option. Most of us grew our hair as long as we could, and made sure we knew the way south to switzerland. I had some high-school German and mad a point of becoming as fluent as I could so I could pass as a German national if it came to E&E. There was absolutely no confidence that we could hold off an invasion. The term "Window of Vulnerability" came about at this time and there is a book by the same name that explains it.

By the time I left in the summer of 83, that had all changed. We had new aircraft, Ammo stocks to last till resupply, and the knowledge that we at least stood a fighting chance. During that time Reagan also had the Pershing theater nuclear missles installed in Germany to counter the Soviet SR & MRBM's. Those who say that Reagan had nothing to do with winning the Cold War have not got a clue. The purpose of the Red Brigades was to disrupt this re-armament and turn German public opinion against the U.S. There were also daily rent-a-mob demonstrations against the installation of the Pershings. It almost worked. At one point Reagan quitely threatened to "bring the boys" home. We were actually ordered to start inventorying our equipment in preparation to come home. A week or two later the German Parliament signed on.

In 1980-85 the Soviets had reached their peak in terms of military technology applications. Their military had reached a use it or lose it proposition in terms of advantage. They had done all they could the technology they had stolen and their own industry could not take them further on its own. Meanwhile we were still armed with 50's and 60's military technology that was ten to fifteen years behind what they were fielding.

The Abrams M1, the Improved Cobra, the A-10 and other weapons systems that Reagan fast tracked to close the gap made a huge difference. That and the fact that Reagan proved willing to look them in the eye and not blink. In 1980 they had a clear military superiority. By 1983 we had parity. By 85 we were clearly superior. They could not keep up technologically (the Soviets took Stars Wars very seriously while scoffing at it in public and getting our libs to ridicule it). The Gulf War which pitted our stuff against theirs showed that.

Imagine if we had tried to fight the Gulf War without A-10's, M1 Abrams, Bradleys, Apaches, MLRS, Patriot Missles, etc., and I think you will see my point. And, Warsaw pact soldiers were far better trained in the use of their equipment than the Iraqi's were.

32 posted on 08/10/2002 12:36:30 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: PsyOp
I agree, Amazing!

If I'm right, during the early years in the Cold War, the Soviets had at least 3 to 1 tank advantage over the Americans, if not worse. The only reason that they did not overwhelm Europe was because of our nuclear weapons.

Thank God for Reagan and nukes!

33 posted on 08/10/2002 12:39:58 AM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: spetznaz; PsyOp
That was an outstanding post that hits the nail on the head.
34 posted on 08/10/2002 1:08:06 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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