Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

ISLAM'S FUTURE
New York Post ^ | 8/13/02 | DANIEL PIPES

Posted on 08/13/2002 1:41:35 AM PDT by kattracks

Edited on 05/26/2004 5:08:07 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

August 13, 2002 -- 'I AM surprised at your lack of courage, Mr. Pipes," one reader scolded me. "Your point of view is for people who believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus," opined another. "You really dropped the ball on this one!" "I hope you are not beginning to lose your nerve." "Totally wrong." Or, more charitably: "Maybe your hope is overshadowing your understanding of the truth."


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 08/13/2002 1:41:35 AM PDT by kattracks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: kattracks
The problem with Pipes' approach is that Islam is par excellence a religion of the sword. It has subjugated, destroyed and smashed into oblivion pre-Islamic cultures wherever it conquered. And afterwards any peoples not forcibly converted to Islam where treated as minorities complelled to live in a state of humiliation and degradation whose lives were in ever present threat of extinction and to whom anything could be done by their Muslim overlords. If Islam had its equivalent of the Reformation, the above unpleasant facts would not matter, but since it is unreformed, hostile, xenophobic and totalitarian and willing to employ even the most extreme means of disposing of its adversaries the above facts about the religion are central to confronting it. An important correction to Pipes' treatment of Islam can be found in Bat Yeor's Islam And Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide. Only if Islam's dark side is apprehended will it be possible to convert a savage foe into a civilized culture capable of dwelling in harmony with the rest of the world.
2 posted on 08/13/2002 1:56:03 AM PDT by goldstategop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop
Islam is more or less exactly where Christianity was 1350 years after its founding.
3 posted on 08/13/2002 2:10:27 AM PDT by TheConservator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: TheConservator
Yup. Its still more or less in the Middle Ages.
4 posted on 08/13/2002 2:15:27 AM PDT by goldstategop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
"The religion must adapt to modern mores."

Why is that, Mr. Pipes? Why indeed?

They've had over a dozen centuries to "modernize"; hasn't happened yet.

To what do you attribute this belief that they must adapt? All I see from the Muslim world is an intense desire to remain in the 7th century and kill anyone who doesn't share their views.

At the rate they're going, the only thing they'll "adapt" to is annihilation.

5 posted on 08/13/2002 2:23:04 AM PDT by RightOnline
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TheConservator
No, it isn't. Jesus never uttered the earthly hatred and strife contained in the Koran, the two are incomparable.
6 posted on 08/13/2002 2:29:21 AM PDT by Darheel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
Conversely, if one sees Islam as irredeemably evil, what comes next? This approach turns all Muslims - even moderates fleeing the horrors of militant Islam - into eternal enemies. And it leaves one with zero policy options. My approach has the benefit of offering a realistic policy to deal with a major global problem.

Finally a more reasonable approach to be heard.

7 posted on 08/13/2002 2:42:01 AM PDT by bluester
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TheConservator
Christianity, as an organized religion, came into being as an afterthought. The Gospels weren't written down until nearly 80 years had passed. The Nicene Creed, which was the first "official" statement of doctrine, was adopted 400 years after Christ walked the earth. It was the powers and principalities of the world, notably the Roman and Byzantine empires, which gave Christianity its outward forms. The indictments against Christianity are rarely indictments against Christ; they are usually against people with names like Borgia.

Mohammed, on the other hand, packaged Islam ready to franchise from the git-go. It had a source of funds, the Haj. It had a military arm, the Companions. It had a form of government, the Caliphate. It had a legal system, sharia. And a body of written scripture. You can argue that Osama Bin Laden is practicing Islam right out the box. Mohammed would have done Colonel Sanders proud.

Pipes is arguing, not that Islam isn't so, but that it need not remain so. The alternative is a war of extinction. Perhaps he is right; Turkey being the counterexample to the proposition that all Muslims must die. But the task of learning to live in peace with people like Osama is so alike to all-out war as to defy distinction.

Yet if we hold ourselves Christians and warriors too, we must accept that losing one's life is not the only thing that can happen on the battlefield. We must emerge with our souls intact too to make it worth the candle. Pipes may be right: there is another road, but it is also a hard one.
8 posted on 08/13/2002 2:45:20 AM PDT by wretchard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: KeyWest
bttt
9 posted on 08/13/2002 3:14:49 AM PDT by KeyWest
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
....if one sees Islam as irredeemably evil, what comes next? This approach turns all Muslims - even moderates fleeing the horrors of militant Islam - into eternal enemies. And it leaves one with zero policy options.

The light dawns. But, it is too frightening for Pipes to contemplate.

My approach has the benefit of offering a realistic policy to deal with a major global problem.

The triumph of fear and appeasement over judgement.

In conclusion, a reflection: Americans have acquired an impressive knowledge of Islam. Contrary to the incessant bleating by apologists for militant Islam about American ignorance of this topic, my readers know what they are talking about. Their critiques are sometimes erudite .... sometimes eloquent .....

These readers, surely, are not typical of American opinion, but their informed antagonism to Islam bears remarking. It is likely to have a larger political role as Islam ever-more becomes central a topic of discussion in the West.

As the Germans say Wissen ist Macht -- knowledge is power.

10 posted on 08/13/2002 3:52:27 AM PDT by CatoRenasci
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
Allow me to ring in on this.

Islam's past and present are horrifying, almost too awful to contemplate. Despite what some have said here and elsewhere, it presents no parallel with Christianity, which never animated a program of continental conquest. The Inquisition was a fleeting blot on Christianity's escutcheon, and is regretted universally today. The Crusades were a response to the Muslim penetration of Eastern Europe, a matter which Dr. Pipes would appreciate. That that response was overenthusiastically endorsed by temporal rulers anxious to export their domestic brigands to some faraway place has nothing to do with the religious matter.

Dr. Pipes would have us judge Islam not on its past or present, but on its potential future. Yet the events and trends of the day give us no reason to believe that Islam will become anything other than what it currently is: a brutal, misogynistic, totalitarian code that explicitly obstructs both material and political progress.

Either Islam is impeding the development of the cultures it dominates, or it provides a rationale under which they can refuse to accept their backwardness. In either case, it stands in the way. As practiced and interpreted from its sacred documents, neither of these influences can be corrected. Therefore, the question before us is not whether Islam can be reformed, but whether it can be replaced.

What would replace it?

Whatever religion might supplant present-day Islam -- and it might go by that name -- to make it fit for human consumption, it would have to share the fundamental moral underpinnings of Judaism and Christianity: basically, the Ten Commandments. It would have to inform its adherents that they are not superior to non-adherents, nor possessed of superior rights, simply because they accept it. To become the full moral equal of the other great faiths, it would have to incorporate the ethic of benevolence, the desire to see good in and do good to all men, provided only that they respond in kind: Christ's version of the Golden Rule.

Have I said that it must become Christianity? Not quite. Christianity incorporates certain doctrinal requirements about the divinity of Christ and His purpose in becoming a man. Though illuminating and inspiring, these tenets are not necessary to the detoxification of Islam. (In fact, the Trinitarian assertion was the entering wedge by which Mohammed established his new creed, since the Monophysite Christians among whom he preached did not accept the triune nature of God as proclaimed by orthodox Christianity.) Christ did not come to Earth to proclaim a new Law, but to remind us of the old one. He said so Himself: "I come not to overthrow the law, but to fulfill it."

If Dr. Pipes envisions some other transformation of Islam that would render it a safe neighbor for us of the Judeo-Christian West, he'd better make it explicit. For my part, I doubt that any other satisfactory evolution is possible.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com

11 posted on 08/13/2002 4:15:36 AM PDT by fporretto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
Dr. Pipes,

How do we get there from here?

How do we and the moderate Muslims beat back the Islamists?

You cite Turkey as a civilized example, and rightly so. A modern republican form of government was imposed by Atatürk nearly a century ago and continues to be enforced with the help of the military. But it seems that the Turkish example is not transferable to elsewhere in the Muslim world, especially not to Arab countries.

Take Algeria as an example, where the government has its back against the wall in a desperate war with the Islamists. The Algerian government is not lacking in resolve. But no matter how harshly it cracks down on the Islamists, they always manage to reach new levels of atrocity. And they could not do so without the support of broad segments of society who think as they do.

So it is not useful to point to Turkey as an example of how Islam can be modernized. The prescription must fit the disease, and it is most virulent in the Arab countries, where all attempts at a "Turkish solution" have failed.
12 posted on 08/13/2002 5:24:09 AM PDT by tictoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wretchard
It was the powers and principalities of the world, notably the Roman and Byzantine empires, which gave Christianity its outward forms.

I agree."We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

Those evil powers have used earthly powers to 'form' Christianity and most of it is man-made religious organization. systems of activity that come from man with the help of evil forces.

The Father did not have this in mind for the Church. The Church is governed by the Holy Spirit....HIS Holy Spirit and we are doing a poor job today of listening to Him.

13 posted on 08/13/2002 5:38:44 AM PDT by Jackie222
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
These readers, surely, are not typical of American opinion, but their informed antagonism to Islam bears remarking. It is likely to have a larger political role as Islam ever-more becomes central a topic of discussion in the West.

I hope so!

14 posted on 08/13/2002 5:43:43 AM PDT by kapn kuek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
My response, however, is that no matter what Islam is now or was in the past, it will be something different in the future. The religion must adapt to modern mores.

Well, islam has not changed in 1300 years! Why would it change now? To protect the "feelings" of teary-eyed, bleeding-heart, left-wing liberals and modern mores?

NOT A CHANCE!

15 posted on 08/13/2002 5:49:24 AM PDT by texson66
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kapn kuek
Islam is just a violent bloody death cult. It must be totally extirpated from the world.

Christianity was not really founded or intended by ANYbody on Earth, it seems. It just came to be because it was needed so badly. It is a spontaneous growth becuase Greco-Roman, European culture needed a religion so badly, and so does it now, for that matter, and had better get back to its foundation.

America without Christianity is something that the Jews who have been willing that, will not like to see, let us hope they do a 180 in time.

16 posted on 08/13/2002 5:51:52 AM PDT by crystalk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: TheConservator
Hardly.

A cursory examination of Spanish history under the scimitars of the muslim slavemasters will enlighten you otherwise.

Screwing female children (ala the prophet Mohammed) wasn't a part of Christian culture. (Priests screwing male children is a sinister manifestation of Vatican II-and to the delight of the proponents of a homosexual agenda- when the Church heirarchy conspired with satan to make sweeping changes that included allowing gaggles of homosexuals into the priesthood.) Islam and the homosexuals belong in the same category.

Your statement is, in total, false.

17 posted on 08/13/2002 5:51:53 AM PDT by elcaudillo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: tictoc
Perhaps we will have to impose the republic ourselves, meaning that an American Empire will have to exist for the speace of 50-100 years.

18 posted on 08/13/2002 5:53:54 AM PDT by hchutch
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: fporretto


19 posted on 08/13/2002 6:14:39 AM PDT by dennisw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
I know this runs counter to many of the posters on this forum's ideas about Muslims, but because I had a Muslim professor (from Bangladesh), I realize that not all Muslims are the same. He was an excellent teacher (climatology) and expressly wished to disassociate himself from the murderous Mideast nuts who slaughter Israelis and westerners. Pipes is correct...not all Muslims are savage fiends. My professor even invited the class to his apartment for dinner and to meet his wife and thoroughly westernized son.

Islam can be reformed, but tough love may be needed. When many of the Islamist maniacs who are killing innocents now are hunted down and destroyed, you might see a modernization of other Muslim societies. It won't be easy, but I refuse to believe that all Muslims are evil. If you knew my ex-professor, you'd know that to be true.

20 posted on 08/13/2002 6:25:59 AM PDT by driftless
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightOnline
sounds like he has been muzzled.
21 posted on 08/13/2002 6:31:32 AM PDT by TLBSHOW
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: driftless
I think you are confusing what most of are saying, that Islam itself is evil, with the proposition that all individuals who are Mahometans are evil. The latter statement is not true, nor does it logically inhere in the former statement. That would be the same thing as saying all Germans are evil because Nazism was evil.
22 posted on 08/13/2002 7:35:02 AM PDT by CatoRenasci
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: tictoc
So it is not useful to point to Turkey as an example of how Islam can be modernized.

Ahh, but it is. Military defeat, loss of an empire, and military invasion of the heartland tend to open one's mind to new paradigms.

23 posted on 08/13/2002 7:43:04 AM PDT by TomSmedley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
I find it inconceivable that those who most earnestly seek the face of God have invaribly wound up killing His (by His own admission) greatest achievement -- mankind. We are told in all religious variations of Judaism (of which the Muslims and Christians are the two) that the taking of human life is forbidden, yet lives are wasted like yesterday's newspapers. Catholics killing Protestants in Northern Ireland and vice versa. Muslims killing Jews and Christians in the Middle East and Northern Africa and vice versa.

I submit for your consideration that God is life and life is sacred. The opposite of God is Satan. Satan is death and death is sacred. Those who believe it is in dying that they achieve God's purpose are following a mistaken theology. Dying is easy. Living is the challenge. Living is jihad. Those who seek to kill and destroy are serving their god and will live eternally in his presence. Those who serve life, serve their God and will live eternally in His presence. There is no middle ground.

Until all mankind reveres and holds sacred the gift of life, there will be no peace. Until mankind makes the enemies of God their footstool, there will be no return of Goodness. Until all adherents of one God stand together against evil, this horror will continue, and that, my friends, is what Satan counts on most. His time is up when we figure it out and implement the belief.

24 posted on 08/13/2002 10:59:55 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
The religion must adapt to modern mores.

This can be done. One recent example: In May, the Turkish religious authorities ruled - completely contrary to Islamic custom - to permit women to pray next to men and to attend mosque services while menstruating.

Anyone want to have a stab at what century of civilization they have entered with such a grand gesture?

And to think that some American parents got upset about a surprise "thong check" for violations of a school dress code.

25 posted on 08/13/2002 1:15:06 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
If Turkish theologians can execute such changes, why not theologians in other countries, too?

The two biggest tasks for arab nations to consent to are open practice of other religions and conversion from islam to other religions.

Anything else betrays the notion of islam being a peaceful religion. If the citizens are not free to choose their faith and exercise it (under penalty of death) then they are not free. Their religion dominatates that freedom.

26 posted on 08/13/2002 1:19:13 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
My approach has the benefit of offering a realistic policy to deal with a major global problem.

Sounds like the reasoning of a lib who refuses to accept a fetus as being a living being. It's much easier to solve the problem of unwanted or improper pregancies if we just take that concept off the table.

27 posted on 08/13/2002 1:21:58 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: goldstategop
From Ask The Imam last year: Is Osamah bin Laden is really a hero of Islamic Ummah? Do Taliban government of Afghanistan done right by demolishing the Buddah statues?

1. Usama ibn Laden is a practising Muslim, and thus, our brother in Islam. He has made many sacrifices for the Deen, in particular, the Jihaad of Afghanistan. While we respect him for this, we do not raise any person to any position, except that which Allah Ta'ala wishes.

2. He himself has denied involvement. Why should we then doubt him? Even if a billion Kuffaar say the opposite, the word of a single practising Muslim is more acceptable to us.

3. It was an Islamic duty for the Taliban to have destroyed the idols.

Don't think that they respect our Christian monuments/sites/buildings/etc. any more than the Buddahs.

Remember that hostage situation at the Church of the Nativity?

28 posted on 08/13/2002 1:29:25 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: TheConservator
Islam is more or less exactly where Christianity was 1350 years after its founding.

Their calendar isn't much farther ahead than that figure either...

29 posted on 08/13/2002 1:31:23 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: wretchard
Could we have gone to the German people and pleaded with them to remove Hitler, drop out of their military campaigns, and become the "pro-Western" nation that a part of Germany did following WWII?

Or do you knock out the leader. Kill their followers (the ones who empower them) and instill your own reforms?

30 posted on 08/13/2002 1:35:30 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: wretchard
Revelation 13

1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.


It's a family feud,

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, on down to David and to Yeshua.

Abram, Ishmael, on down to Muhammad and to...

31 posted on 08/13/2002 1:35:59 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: tictoc
How do we and the moderate Muslims beat back the Islamists?

So far (nearly a year later from 9/11) I have yet to see/hear/read any PR campaign from the muslims distancing themselves from the Islamists. I'd heard a few people say that it is just the actions of a few individuals but there has been no denouncement of the actions of the Islamists.

I've been exposed to PR campaigns that the Palestinians children just want to grow up to be wonderful people like Albert Einstein, Charlie Chaplin, John Lennon, and Ghandi but they can't because of violent Jews. I've been exposed to PR campaigns that the arab states want peace if only Israel would come to the table and sign their treaty. I've been exposed to PR campaigns that "I am an American".

Nothing to say: "We do not support the destruction of the ancient buddah statues". "If my nation goes to war, I'll fight side by side with you against the Islamists".

32 posted on 08/13/2002 1:44:12 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: texson66
We need to export liberalism to the nations of Islam. Either the libs will be slaughtered as infidels for their vile Western ways or their culture will hit a tremendous shock. Send them a nekkid hippies sex festival with live performances by Rage Against My Allowance, Madonna, Michael Jackson, Marilyn Manson, Barbara Streisand, and celebrity hosts like Rosie O'Donnell, Alec Baldwin, Robert Altman, Bubba Clinton and his half-brother Rog', Albert Gore Junior and his wife Tipper (someone has to show them how to kiss), Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, Hugh Hefner, and Bill Maher.

They can't hate us any more than they already do...

33 posted on 08/13/2002 1:51:43 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: CatoRenasci
But islam/muslim is a belief system as were the principles of nazism. All arabs are not evil, all Germans are not evil. Not all muslims are evil but those who follow Islamism are; their goal is domination. 100% compliance is not required to dominate.

There may have been some principles of nazism that were "positive" but I'm not going to go looking for them. Some socialists would be proud of the notion of improving transportation (and creating the "peoples" car), funding state sponsored arts, etc..

34 posted on 08/13/2002 2:01:27 PM PDT by weegee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson