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Great Wall of America (China)
FEER ^ | By Murray Hiebert/WASHINGTON with Ben Dolven/SHANGHAI

Posted on 08/22/2002 5:57:00 PM PDT by maui_hawaii

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1 posted on 08/22/2002 5:57:00 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: belmont_mark
bump
2 posted on 08/22/2002 5:57:56 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: All
First step: open free trade with Singapore and create a working relationship with Indonesia. We get our cheap labor, and goods flow and profits are made.

Step Two: Raise taxes on all technology imports from China to say 5 times their current level. Also raise income taxes for all corporations importing from China. Call it 'the China penalty'. It won't hurt the corporations, it will just have them comply with moving to somewhere better and more productive, and as to not have such a trade imbalance.

Step three: realize that the internal China market is not peechy and rosy. If you manufacture 90% of your products in China, and sell to the Chinese, with no tarriffs, your sales and profits will be far from stellar. The trade off is not worth it.

Do a study. Find out about their massively 'huge' market. Learn about it tip to tail. Sort through facts vs propaganda, or the whole dot.com 'we hope China is a big market' vs what really goes on. Publicize all the numbers including all the profits, all the losses of all corporations doing business in China. That way we aren't running an ideological battle.

You will find that every China apologist businessman will FEAR such a study.

After that, work on steps one and two.

3 posted on 08/22/2002 6:10:01 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: All
I want actual spending, sales, revenue, margins, profits, losses, etc numbers.

It will take one act of congress to settle this debate. That act will be to have open and transparent and PUBLIC disclosure of corporate operations in China using all of these new found accounting standards.

It will take minor retooling, such as requiring the numbers to seperate out what is exported revenues vs what is actual in country sales. Also seperate out what is sold to other US corporations, as well as what is sold to the government.

Instead of looking at this big mass and fighting over "China", why not look at the nuts and bolts, just like they do everywhere else, except in China of course.

4 posted on 08/22/2002 6:18:18 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: All

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5 posted on 08/22/2002 6:18:36 PM PDT by Bob J
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To: soccer8; JohnHuang2
Everywhere in the world is supposed to survive scrutiny. With China though, its 'hands off'.
6 posted on 08/22/2002 6:22:37 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
Clearly an objective look at the numbers will show that the great Chinese market is not a good place to make money but the real lure for corporations is labor that works for nothing producing products taht can be sold worldwide fro huge profits. If those products can not be imported into the USA without tarriffs then the investment does not make sense. further, every business doing business in China should examine the risk factors involved if there is a confrontation with the USA.

Let investment decisions be based on real risk evaluations and real rates of return.

Stray well - Stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

7 posted on 08/22/2002 7:38:15 PM PDT by harpseal
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To: maui_hawaii
It's equally suspect on the supply side. I would be willing to bet anyone that I could put on my old commodity manager hat and get initial contracts and cost reductions from suppliers in the Americas that would be on par or better than anything having to do with the PRC. I could even do it for suppliers in the Philippines, Thailand and possibly even Malaysia. When you add up the hidden costs such as E & O exposure, in transit queue length, overhead of supplier managers, etc. the PRC is not at all the cheapest place to buy. But then again, I suppose it's a whole lot more exciting for the supplier selection teams to go party in Hong Kong versus the same old boring drive across the border at Otay Mesa!
8 posted on 08/22/2002 7:47:43 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: maui_hawaii
Raise taxes on all technology imports from China to say 5 times their current level. Also raise income taxes for all corporations importing from China. Call it 'the China penalty'. It won't hurt the corporations, it will just have them comply with moving to somewhere better and more productive, and as to not have such a trade imbalance.

You sound more communist than the Communist Chinese.

9 posted on 08/22/2002 8:12:13 PM PDT by faulkner
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To: belmont_mark
Taiwan's own hi-tech CEO's say China is a big market in itself for everything from cell phones to PC's. It's not just about China's having lower production costs.
10 posted on 08/22/2002 8:18:04 PM PDT by faulkner
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To: harpseal
If those products can not be imported into the USA without tarriffs then the investment does not make sense.

Let investment decisions be based on real risk evaluations and real rates of return.

Most capitalists would argue against, not for, tariffs. Investment decisions are best made without tariffs and other anti-capitalist measures.

11 posted on 08/22/2002 8:21:40 PM PDT by faulkner
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To: faulkner
no no. not by a mile. I say companies should do business where free markets can and DO reign, not where they are manipulated and contorted for the quick buck and to prop up a Communist regime.

China is a dot.com scheme in process and we are all buying shares.

For long term sustained economic growth we have to be extremely careful about China.

We will be a whole lot better off somewhere else.

12 posted on 08/22/2002 8:28:41 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: belmont_mark
Looks like we have another stupid faulkner in here making noise...

You are spot on IMO. Good post.

Another thing too...China's size is not a plus, its a negative. Especially combined with an authoritarian government.

In a place without as much labor pool available, incomes rise at a much faster pace. As incomes rise, so does consumer consumption. The right to form a union to get higher wages (albeit often abused in the US sometimes), in these developing countries is fundamental to their healthy growth. Higher incomes, limited government taxation, and increased consumption mean good business.

The Chinese government is too busy trying to stay on top of everyone.

With China though 'private' means 49.9% govt owned. The govt hoards the money, then spend it on govt projects. The government IS China...They ARE the market.

Its not a place focused on the individual consumer which is not the kind of economics anyone is used to, or works.

There are so many things fundamentally wrong with business in China.

13 posted on 08/22/2002 8:39:48 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: belmont_mark
China is trying to replace fundamental individualism with government hoarding and spending.

Our corporations need to learn that cost cutting is not growth. Growth means an outward growth, meaning adding the number of consumers, which means fundamental individual rights and individualism. Thats directly opposed to the CCP way of doing things. Yet for the quick buck, corporations are not challenging their system.

I am all for trade as long as its on those terms.

Thats how Korea got rich, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc.

Those have been some good investments.

14 posted on 08/22/2002 8:46:32 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: harpseal
Bump!

Also check out #13 and #14

Our corporations are becoming tools of the communist party.

Their short term interests are in serving Beijing. Beijing makes certain of it.

15 posted on 08/22/2002 8:50:07 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: faulkner
Most such CEOs are the sons of KMT who either illegally immigrated to Formosa 1945 - 1949 or after, as refugees once Formosa became the R.O.C. In truth, the "huge market" they allude to is the same "huge market" that all the US businesses attempting to appease the PRC via reciprocity (e.g. by having either suppliers or their own manufacturing) and thereby gain entry to this supposedly "huge market."

Unfortunately, the market is limited to the small fraction of the population in coastal cities in the SE part of the country, and to a certain extent, Beijing, who have any sort of disposible income. It's ususally break even at best and mostly for market presence and the access to the labor market in the chase of the vanishing point known as contuniuous cost reduction via external overhead reduction.

I suspect there is also another motive from the standpoint of the KMT industrialists. Many of them (and mind you, I know some of them) believe that they will be able to carve out a niche on the mainland at some point for themselves and their families. They have lost their martial spirit and have been duped by the move from Marxism to Stalinist Fascism that they will be happy as wealthy subjects of the Forbidden City. In other words, they now believe in convergence of a sort. That's why they are at odds with the DPP, who are Western facing and want to restore the de facto pre Victorian era independence of Formosa, with a fall back position of rejoining Japan, who had annexed Formosa in the late 1800s and kept it until 1945.

Reading from PLA writings regarding unrestricted warfare, one of the dimensions of successful war under high tech conditions is to use the opponent's economic position against them. I am afraid to say that the war between the PRC and Taiwan (and the US for that matter) began some time ago.

16 posted on 08/22/2002 8:55:30 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD
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To: maui_hawaii
I say companies should do business where free markets can and DO reign.

Capitalism is gonna do whatever it's gonna do, regardless or what you or anyone else thinks "should" happen.

17 posted on 08/22/2002 10:07:36 PM PDT by faulkner
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To: maui_hawaii
Its not a place focused on the individual consumer which is not the kind of economics anyone is used to, or works. There are so many things fundamentally wrong with business in China.

Perhaps you think business conditions in Third World republics like India, Brazil, and Argentina are better? Come on, in India, despite 50 years of democracy, they have yet to enact basic labor and land reforms that allow private businesses to hire and fire people as they wish to or buy property when they want to.

18 posted on 08/22/2002 10:11:40 PM PDT by faulkner
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To: maui_hawaii
Our corporations need to learn that cost cutting is not growth. Growth means an outward growth, meaning adding the number of consumers, which means fundamental individual rights and individualism. Thats directly opposed to the CCP way of doing things. Yet for the quick buck, corporations are not challenging their system.

I am all for trade as long as its on those terms.

Thats how Korea got rich, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc.

Those have been some good investments.

For your information, US firms outsourced manufacturing to Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. over the past few decades for "cost-cutting" reasons as well. It's only because these places have become rich themselves and their labor rates so high that manufacturing is now being transferred to mainland China, where labor wages are still low. Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. all developed middle-classes through decades of exports, and China today is merely following the same path (including politically, as all these places had one-party rule).

19 posted on 08/22/2002 10:16:25 PM PDT by faulkner
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To: belmont_mark
Unfortunately, the market is limited to the small fraction of the population in coastal cities in the SE part of the country, and to a certain extent, Beijing, who have any sort of disposible income.

You're talking about approximately 100 mil. people here (a "small fraction" in China is still a large number of people), who enjoy a standard of living on par with Taiwanese or S. Koreans. 100 mil. people is almost as big as Japan's entire population or the entire US workforce. Those 100 mil. new bourgeois didn't even exist 20 years ago. As time goes on, you can expect about another 100-200 mil. Chinese to join China's middle class each decade. China is already the world's largest market for cell phones, refridgerators, air conditioners, light bulbs, etc. Pretty soon, it will replace Japan as #2 in PC's. In the meantime, today's Third World republics are so chaotic and dysfunctional they need one IMF bailout after another. Representative democracy in Third World countries is largely dysfunctional around the entire world.

20 posted on 08/22/2002 10:26:33 PM PDT by faulkner
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