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Defects in NYPD handguns [Glocks jamming]
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS ^ | Tuesday, August 20th, 2002 | BOB KAPPSTATTER and ALICE McQUILLAN

Posted on 08/23/2002 2:24:12 PM PDT by archy

Defects in NYPD handguns

Half subject to jamming

By BOB KAPPSTATTER and ALICE McQUILLAN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Tuesday, August 20th, 2002

More than half of the Police Department's handguns are subject to jam without warning, a potentially dangerous flaw that can leave the weapons as "useless as paperweights," police sources said. Although the jamming is rare, the NYPD has been concerned enough to order a recall of 24,000 semiautomatic Glock handguns so they can be refitted.

This problem affects the Glock Model 19S - the gun carried by about 60% of the department's 39,000 officers. The flaw, in which the shell casing fails to eject, has only arisen during practice and tests at the NYPD firing range, police officials say.

"Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario...we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."

However, during an actual gun battle in Brooklyn, two Emergency Service Unit officers reported that their Glocks failed. Collins said that after an investigation of the October 2000 incident, ballistics experts said whatever problem those guns had, it was not the jamming malfunction that is the subject of the current recall.

To correct the problem, the Austrian-based Glock company has sent engineers to the NYPD's firing range at Rodmans Neck in the Bronx. Since June, they have repaired 3,200 weapons in a procedure that takes about an hour. Immediately afterward, officers tested the refitted weapons at the range, where the results have been excellent, Collins said. The process will continue until all 24,000 Glocks are fixed, he said.

There is a delay in fixing all the weapons, sources said, because cutbacks and the redeployment of officers to special details have made it difficult for cops to schedule time to have their guns repaired.

Sources also said that some of the Glocks have a different problem - locking. When a gun locks, a user can get it functioning again by removing the clip holding the ammunition and manually moving the slide to eject the stuck shell casing.

In that scenario, the source said, "You can be back in the gun battle in a matter of seconds, as opposed to the total jam where the guns become [as] useless as paperweights."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Georgia; US: New York
KEYWORDS: banglist; cops; donutwatch; glock; jam; malfunction; nypd; phasethree; rhodesia
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see info *here* for additional Glock *Phase three malfunction* info.
1 posted on 08/23/2002 2:24:13 PM PDT by archy
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To: archy
we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired.
2 posted on 08/23/2002 2:25:56 PM PDT by ibbryn
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To: archy
Judging from the shooting ability that NY cops have demonstrated the guns may be more lethal as clubs. Besides pistols are illegal for anyone but cops to own therefore the police really don't need guns! ( There is no gun crime . . . . . right?)
3 posted on 08/23/2002 2:27:25 PM PDT by Nov3
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To: jdogbearhunter; alieno nomine; Xphantasos
Ping
4 posted on 08/23/2002 2:29:51 PM PDT by phasma proeliator
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To: *bang_list
Here we go again! ;)
5 posted on 08/23/2002 2:32:29 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: ibbryn
we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired.

From link above:


Retired NYPD MOS Pat Rogers reports upon personal observation that Glock, Inc. has set-up a mini-CAD CAM machine shop with technicians supplied by Glock in a rented trailer at Rodman's Neck where it will be on station for at least one year, and possibly longer.

A milling machine capable of handling eight (8) slides at a time, is performing two cuts, one on the breach face, and another at the ejection port. Some of the newest Models 19 already have one of those cuts done at the factory, and unconfirmed information suggests that Glock, Inc. will be incorporating these changes across their entire product line.

Glock has acknowledged that these cuts are not so much to prevent the malfunction as they are to make it easier for the operator to clear them when they occur. That seems to be barely one step beyond Glock's offer when the Phase Three problems first surfaced, to produce an instructional video on P3 clearances.

While the Glock 19 has been purchased in higher numbers (25,000 units) than either the S&W 5946 or Sig-Sauer P226 DAO variant, approximately two-thirds of NYPD's last academy class chose a handgun other than the Glocks as their duty weapon. DS

6 posted on 08/23/2002 2:33:30 PM PDT by archy
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: em23
...something about an eight or ten pound trigger pull, I heard.
8 posted on 08/23/2002 2:46:05 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: archy
GOT COLT?
9 posted on 08/23/2002 2:50:30 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: archy
I dont like the trigger/safety mechanism on a glock.

That said, I have NEVER seen one jam.

10 posted on 08/23/2002 2:51:21 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: archy
And people wonder why I love 1911's and revolvers :)
11 posted on 08/23/2002 2:51:34 PM PDT by Centurion2000
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To: archy
"In the worst-case scenario...we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."

I thought needed to be repeated.

12 posted on 08/23/2002 2:58:37 PM PDT by cruiserman
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To: Ford Fairlane
. . . . I have NEVER seen one jam.

OK, let's look at reality. Glocks are purchased by police departments because they are low-cost weapons, not for any other reason. Would you want to trust your life to the lowest bidder?

13 posted on 08/23/2002 2:59:20 PM PDT by toddst
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To: toddst
Sounds to me like they're "limp wristing". This allows the recoil to be absorbed by the arm and elbow(instead of functioning the action).You can do this with a 1911 or any other semi-auto handgun if you try hard enough. Maybe the NYPD should get more training for the sissies amoung 'em.
14 posted on 08/23/2002 3:03:54 PM PDT by chadwimc
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To: archy
For the record, IMHO, Chief Michael Collins of the NYPD is a moron and should be relieved. Any auto loading pistol that operates properly 449,999 out of 450,000 times is 99.9998% effective, about as close to perfection as is humanly possible. The members of the NYPD should be on their knees every night, thanking God, that they have Glocks. Chief Collins should spend some time improving the shooting skills of his officers, that might actually be of some use.
15 posted on 08/23/2002 3:13:51 PM PDT by Agent Smith
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To: Marine Inspector
Ping.
16 posted on 08/23/2002 3:30:30 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: chadwimc
Sounds to me like they're "limp wristing".

Based on all the testing they've done on the range I don't believe limp-wristing is the problem. There's a problem in the engineering itself and Glock isn't addressing it. Mr. Glock tends to discourage criticism of his guns, is what I hear. Glock better get on with serious work IMO.

17 posted on 08/23/2002 3:44:39 PM PDT by toddst
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To: Ford Fairlane
Yes... I don't have much interest in a Glock myself. They just don't fit my hand right. I prefer the 1911 style single-stack magazine. But: everyone I know that owns a Glock raves about it. Particularly: reliability. Sounds like maybe Glock had a bad batch or a late-model tweak to the engineering that isn't working out.
18 posted on 08/23/2002 4:19:54 PM PDT by Ramius
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To: archy
"Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario...we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."

If this is true, the New York Police Department may have the world's most reliable pistol.

19 posted on 08/23/2002 4:21:58 PM PDT by J Jay
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To: chadwimc
Bingo!
20 posted on 08/23/2002 4:23:52 PM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: Ford Fairlane
I jammed one on the range using an underpowered reload.My stupidity for using reloads in a Glock.I frequently fire a Colt Series 80/Mk4 Officer's Model and a Browning Hi-Power 9mm.I have never had either jam other than an occasional stovepipe,easily cleared.Police departments are loathe to authorize single action autos,in the modern vein of acomodating the lowest common denominator rather than demanding excellence.I don't see the great advantage to the Glock "safe action trigger"-it is no improvement over single action.The whole DAO thing started over police agencies irresponsible jerks in the last ten years or so.I learned to fire a .45 auto in the service at age 18 and it is still my favorite.
21 posted on 08/23/2002 4:24:40 PM PDT by steamroller
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To: Ramius
Ive owned 1911s , SIGs, Glocks, Berettas, Steyrs, and Hi Powers in a variety of calibers...they all jam once in a great while...the trick is to practice clearing those jams...
Murphys Law states that when you need it the most it will fail...so practice clearing the failure
It also helps to clean them on occasion.. The Glock 17 and 19 will go on forever without jamming in my experience..
22 posted on 08/23/2002 4:27:42 PM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: chadwimc
"Sounds to me like they're "limp wristing". This allows the recoil to be absorbed by the arm and elbow(instead of functioning the action)."

Either that or ammo problems. I've tested most all of the Glock line - with no jams nor other malfunctions.

I'm not enthusiastic about Glocks. Grip ergonomics is poor; bite on recoil common on some models.

GUN REVIEWS free from ad-money bias - emphasizing woman-friendliness of tested guns!

23 posted on 08/23/2002 4:28:19 PM PDT by glc1173@aol.com
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To: archy
From what I've seen in the way cops care for their guns, it's a wonder that they don't have more problems than they do. Check out police trade-ins some time or if you have any police friends, check out their weapons.

I bought a police trade-in shotgun, cleaned all the gunk & mucus & burger grease off of it, replaced the pistol grip with a stock, sighted down the barrel and found that it could be used to shoot around corners due to the barrel being severely bent. Hope no cop had to rely on that gun to save his butt.
24 posted on 08/23/2002 4:51:07 PM PDT by chuknospam
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To: archy
As far as I know all glocks are subjet to feed failures and smoke stacks when they are new. My theory is that some flashing remains on the injecttion plastic molded parts and this is the source of problems. I have heard others say it is caused by springs that need to break in. In any case after after you run about 2000 rounds through the gun the problem goes away and never returns.

I had the same problem with a glock 9mm I bought in 94. I took it back to a deputy that worked part time at the gun store and told him he sold me a lemon. He loaded it up ran the whole clip with no problems. It jammed progressively less for about a year and hasn't had a problem since then.

25 posted on 08/23/2002 4:58:58 PM PDT by SSN558
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To: toddst; dix; TheMom; humblegunner
OK, let's look at reality. Glocks are purchased by police departments because they are low-cost weapons, not for any other reason. Would you want to trust your life to the lowest bidder?

Glocks are not cheap.

Glocks are VERY reliable.

I own two (2); you own none. I know plenty about them; you know nothing about them.

Stay safe; stay armed; smoke 'em if you got 'em.


26 posted on 08/23/2002 5:05:16 PM PDT by Eaker
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To: chuknospam
Hope no cop had to rely on that gun to save his butt.

Probably not. They saw the problem and replaced it. Rather than destroying the weapon they sold it to the public.

Did you get a good deal on it?

27 posted on 08/23/2002 5:07:16 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon
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To: Ford Fairlane
Saw one "stove-pipe" once when it was still new. Understand it was never a problem again once the pistol had been "broken in".
28 posted on 08/23/2002 5:13:45 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: Eaker; toddst; dix; TheMom
Well, I am not a big handgun person, but I do have observations.
I have been to the shooting range numerous times with
a friend of mine who is a Glock enthusiast.. We pumped I guess
about 200 rounds through those weapons, each time.

I recall no jams, misfires, or other malfunctions.
Ever.

29 posted on 08/23/2002 5:36:05 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Eaker
Glocks are not cheap.

Glocks are VERY reliable.

You're entitled to your opinion, I have mine. The NYPD didn't buy the HIGH bid weapon BTW.

30 posted on 08/23/2002 5:42:53 PM PDT by toddst
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To: archy
The flaw, in which the shell casing fails to eject, has only arisen during practice and tests at the NYPD firing range, police officials say.

so naturally, it must be the firearm.

31 posted on 08/23/2002 6:22:20 PM PDT by galt-jw
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To: ibbryn
we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired.

Which is great if yours is the one that jams at the 450,000 mark - but really sucks if it jams at the start, just as you're using the weapon to defend yourself.

32 posted on 08/23/2002 6:32:30 PM PDT by Tennessee_Bob
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To: toddst
It was recently stated on another BBS that the Glock Safety was akin to placing the gas pedal on top of the brake…

TMMT Proud P7M8 owner
33 posted on 08/23/2002 6:46:12 PM PDT by The Magical Mischief Tour
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To: em23
glocks are great, but arent the nypd glocks modifided with "new york triggers"

And don't they also shoot a special load for NYPD? Its factory ammo but a lower velocity than sold over the counter to everyone else I think.

34 posted on 08/23/2002 6:47:01 PM PDT by Copernicus
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To: archy
What I find interesting about this "phase 3" failure is that the civilian market has bought up far more Glock G19's than NYPD will in the next 100 years. And yet they are concidered very reliable, durable guns.

The one and only IDPA match I've ever been to had a mix of guns, but by far the Glock was most prevalent, followed by the 1911. The Glocks I witnessed shooting, including my own G17 and my friends G19 were flawless. I can't say that for the others though. I watched several FTF and FTE from 1911's. All the malfunctions came from what appeared to be reloaded ammo, but the Glock guys were shooting reloads to.

No one single instance is indicative of a problem. I would place the blame on the NYPD and their weird requirements of guns and ammo than blaming it on any pistol deficiencies.

35 posted on 08/23/2002 7:02:52 PM PDT by Double Tap
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To: The Magical Mischief Tour
It was recently stated on another BBS that the Glock Safety was akin to placing the gas pedal on top of the brake…

That's a pretty good description. Other systems work much better IMO. The Glock was intended to replace revolvers used by police officers who (it was said) would have trouble transitioning to a self-loading magazine-fed weapon.

The objective was to capture the market with a low-cost "safe" weapon. It has been successful for Mr. Glock in the police market but that doesn't make it a good weapon. If it takes 2,000 rounds before it's reliable that's not a weapon to put into service until it runs right.

My preference is the Sig P-220, but it's not for everyone.

36 posted on 08/23/2002 7:34:43 PM PDT by toddst
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To: toddst; All
The glock isn't that cheap. I have cleaned & serviced quite a few & they are good weapons.

Of course, I personally carry a HK USP as primary weapon, a Sig 239 as backup #1 (both with Hirtenberger FL +P+ Police ammo), a Walther PP Super 9x18 as backup #2 and a 7.65 PP as backup #3.

Of these the only one that jams is the PP, if you feed it cheap hollowpoints.

Before 1994 the primary weapon was a Walther P1, backup #1 was a P4 - I switched because the P38 line doesn't like to feed all hollowpoints (but they do like the FL ammo - it was designed for it) and you don't always know what ammo you will be able to get.

If you are really worried about jams & can't clear them carry a .38 Detective Special - that is what I bought my sister.

37 posted on 08/23/2002 9:41:38 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: Ford Fairlane
That said, I have NEVER seen one jam.

10,000 rounds through my G21 (.45) and counting.

5,000 rounds through my G19 (9mm) and counting.

1,000 rounds through my newly bought G30 (.45) and counting.

Still waiting to see my first malfunction of any kind.

38 posted on 08/23/2002 9:46:05 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: glock rocks
Bump. Thought you might find this of interest.
39 posted on 08/23/2002 9:49:04 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: steamroller
The Colt .45 rules. I started carrying 9mm's because .45 ammo was hard to get in some countries outside the U.S.

Those underpowered reloads can be a b!tch. I had to fix a Browning BDM that a guy blew up shooting reloads that he made without knowing what he was doing. If he hadn't been wearing glasses he would have lost both eyes. The barrel was bulged so bad I had to cut the takedown lever apart with a dremel tool to get the gun apart.

40 posted on 08/23/2002 9:51:02 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: Double Tap
The one and only IDPA match I've ever been to had a mix of guns, but by far the Glock was most prevalent, followed by the 1911.

Not just IDPA. I shoot at three different ranges in the local area. Competition, training and just plain plinking at paper targets. And the vast preponderance of semi-auto handguns I see are Glocks.

Now most of these people are civilians, but the outfit I train with is run by LEOs, and this group absolutely swears by them.

The State of California is down on Glocks for two reasons: 1) The state doesn't like the lack of an external safety and 2) Glock didn't cave in and cut a deal with the Justice Department to avoid the liability lawsuits the Clinton regime tried to ram down the industry's throat.

California just loves Smith and Wesson, for obvious reasons, and mandates them as the standard duty weapon for a lot of LEO agencies.

41 posted on 08/23/2002 9:54:50 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: Ford Fairlane
> I have NEVER seen one jam

I have an original 9MM model 17, it jammed once about halfway through the first magazine I ran through it, but since then it has worked just fine. Probably limp-wrist, like some have said here.

The trigger safety? Well, it is different, but in operation it just doesn't bother me. It's a decent and (at least mine was from the kitchen table FFL next door) inexpensive little gun.

Dave in Eugene

42 posted on 08/23/2002 11:21:34 PM PDT by Clinging Bitterly
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To: steamroller
I don't see the great advantage to the Glock "safe action trigger"-it is no improvement over single action.

The Glock's action is AFAIK completely unique. Indeed, I would like to see the terms "Single Action (SA)" and "Double Action (DA)" replaced with four terms, defined as follows:

Single Action
Nearly all of the energy for the hammer is imparted during cocking; pulling the trigger does not add any appreciable energy to the hammer.
Double Action
All of the energy for the hammer is imparted by pulling the trigger. On any gun I'd call double-action (see below), repeated trigger pulls produce repeated hammer strikes.
Intermediate Action
Some of the energy for the hammer is imparted by cocking, but some is added by the trigger. IAO pistols tend to have shorter trigger pulls than DAO's, but they cannot repeat-strike a primer in case of a misfire.
Glock Action
Much of the energy for the first shot comes from the first trigger pull. Unlike most DAO or IAO pistols which decock or half-decock themselves after each shot, however, the Glock remains fully cocked as the action is cycled. Fully releasing the trigger will cause the Glock to be half-decocked. Releasing it only slightly, however, will reset the sear mechanism while leaving the hammer cocked, allowing for what is almost a single-action trigger pull for the follow-on shots.
Comparing Glock Action to DAO, SA/DA, and SAO pistols... The Glock's 'trigger safety' has only three rules for observation; even a novice should be able to master them: What's so "advanced" about that?
43 posted on 08/24/2002 3:40:59 AM PDT by supercat
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To: The Magical Mischief Tour
It was recently stated on another BBS that the Glock Safety was akin to placing the gas pedal on top of the brake…

If one reversed the functionality of the brake pedal (so the breaks would be engaged except when pressure was applied) that might be sorta right. But IMHO the Glock's safety is the easiest one to use properly. Just three rules:

  1. If you pull the trigger, it goes bang.
  2. If you don't pull the trigger, it doesn't go bang.
  3. If you don't want it to go bang, don't pull the trigger.
      What's so hard about those?

44 posted on 08/24/2002 3:47:43 AM PDT by supercat
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To: archy
I've had my glock jam up like their talking about exactly once: two weeks ago

I was using Wolf ammo. Upon firing, the case split, wedging itself firmly into the barrel, which required disassembly of the gun to get the @#%$^ thing out. My local gunsmith told me it's the third problem he's seen with Wolf ammo doing bad things in glocks (one of the other two, it blew up the glock).

Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk

45 posted on 08/24/2002 3:52:54 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor
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To: Euro-American Scum; Squantos
Thought you might find this of interest.

one in 450,000.

let's see here... i shoot idpa... tell me that a 1911 won't jam in 450 shots... just nine boxes...

BWAHAHAHAHAHA... AHHH HAHAHAHA HA.


oh gosh. please stop, you're killing me here.

46 posted on 08/24/2002 4:22:26 AM PDT by glock rocks
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To: toddst
Look up the terms "opinion " and "fact" in the dictionary and then repost a response.

Glocks are not cheap. - FACT

Glocks are VERY reliable. - FACT

Allow me to give you an example. The sun is hot is a fact. The sun is pretty in an opinion.


Stay safe; stay armed.


47 posted on 08/24/2002 6:11:02 AM PDT by Eaker
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To: The Magical Mischief Tour
It was recently stated on another BBS that the Glock Safety was akin to placing the gas pedal on top of the brake…

My Glock only fires when I pull the trigger. My Glock ALWAYS fires when I pull the trigger.

I am beyond the point of needing a "beginner" gun.


Stay safe; stay armed.


48 posted on 08/24/2002 6:13:37 AM PDT by Eaker
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To: Eaker
BUMP !!
49 posted on 08/24/2002 6:40:48 AM PDT by glock rocks
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To: SauronOfMordor
I was using Wolf ammo. Upon firing, the case split, wedging itself firmly into the barrel, which required disassembly of the gun to get the @#%$^ thing out. My local gunsmith told me it's the third problem he's seen with Wolf ammo doing bad things in glocks (one of the other two, it blew up the glock).

Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk

I've seen similar problems with the mini-Glocks using aluminum-cased *Blazer* ammo from CCI, cheap for inexpensive practice and a neat technological step forward, but far from perfected, it seems. I have had six Glocks since they were introduced, and am now down to two; they've been very reliable and servicable for me, and I have no complaints, but I've gone back to the original full-size Glock 17 9mm and a mini-Glock 30 in .45 for concealment use.

I'd be very interested in knowing what tmodel of Glock you observed your difficulties with, and any more details you might share about your pal's Glock blowup, being known more and more commonly by the less precise term *Glock kaBOOM.* But it's also worth noting that military-issue M1911A1 had difficulties with WWII issue steel-cased ammo too, often found with the headstamp *EC43* from the E/vansville C/hrysler plant where it was produced by the millions. Various stoppages and extractor breakage have been reported, as has ejector battering and ejector pin shearings, though the ammo reportedly functions fine in .45 Thompson and M3/M3A1 submachineguns, in which its use was really intended.

But my dad carried it in his Air Corps-issue .45 with which he guarded Norden Bombsights and classified target analysis documents, and my paternal grandada carried the stuff in the Reising submachinegun with which he guarded a critical railway bridge when there were well-deserved concerns about enemy saboteurs landed by submarine. So the stuff was around then, and sometimes still shows up as closeouts of leftover wartime stocks, nearly 60 years after the fact.

The lesson is clear: a good handgun deserves good ammo. And Glocks are also known to be very intolerant of imprecicely reloaded fodder, so stick with high quality factory ammunition.

-archy-/-

50 posted on 08/24/2002 7:43:54 AM PDT by archy
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