Glocks are not cheap.
Glocks are VERY reliable.
I own two (2); you own none. I know plenty about them; you know nothing about them.
Stay safe; stay armed; smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Posted on 08/23/2002 2:24:12 PM PDT by archy
Defects in NYPD handguns
Half subject to jamming
By BOB KAPPSTATTER and ALICE McQUILLAN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Tuesday, August 20th, 2002
More than half of the Police Department's handguns are subject to jam without warning, a potentially dangerous flaw that can leave the weapons as "useless as paperweights," police sources said. Although the jamming is rare, the NYPD has been concerned enough to order a recall of 24,000 semiautomatic Glock handguns so they can be refitted.
This problem affects the Glock Model 19S - the gun carried by about 60% of the department's 39,000 officers. The flaw, in which the shell casing fails to eject, has only arisen during practice and tests at the NYPD firing range, police officials say.
"Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario...we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."
However, during an actual gun battle in Brooklyn, two Emergency Service Unit officers reported that their Glocks failed. Collins said that after an investigation of the October 2000 incident, ballistics experts said whatever problem those guns had, it was not the jamming malfunction that is the subject of the current recall.
To correct the problem, the Austrian-based Glock company has sent engineers to the NYPD's firing range at Rodmans Neck in the Bronx. Since June, they have repaired 3,200 weapons in a procedure that takes about an hour. Immediately afterward, officers tested the refitted weapons at the range, where the results have been excellent, Collins said. The process will continue until all 24,000 Glocks are fixed, he said.
There is a delay in fixing all the weapons, sources said, because cutbacks and the redeployment of officers to special details have made it difficult for cops to schedule time to have their guns repaired.
Sources also said that some of the Glocks have a different problem - locking. When a gun locks, a user can get it functioning again by removing the clip holding the ammunition and manually moving the slide to eject the stuck shell casing.
In that scenario, the source said, "You can be back in the gun battle in a matter of seconds, as opposed to the total jam where the guns become [as] useless as paperweights."
From link above:
Retired NYPD MOS Pat Rogers reports upon personal observation that Glock, Inc. has set-up a mini-CAD CAM machine shop with technicians supplied by Glock in a rented trailer at Rodman's Neck where it will be on station for at least one year, and possibly longer.
A milling machine capable of handling eight (8) slides at a time, is performing two cuts, one on the breach face, and another at the ejection port. Some of the newest Models 19 already have one of those cuts done at the factory, and unconfirmed information suggests that Glock, Inc. will be incorporating these changes across their entire product line.
Glock has acknowledged that these cuts are not so much to prevent the malfunction as they are to make it easier for the operator to clear them when they occur. That seems to be barely one step beyond Glock's offer when the Phase Three problems first surfaced, to produce an instructional video on P3 clearances.
While the Glock 19 has been purchased in higher numbers (25,000 units) than either the S&W 5946 or Sig-Sauer P226 DAO variant, approximately two-thirds of NYPD's last academy class chose a handgun other than the Glocks as their duty weapon. DS
That said, I have NEVER seen one jam.
I thought needed to be repeated.
OK, let's look at reality. Glocks are purchased by police departments because they are low-cost weapons, not for any other reason. Would you want to trust your life to the lowest bidder?
Based on all the testing they've done on the range I don't believe limp-wristing is the problem. There's a problem in the engineering itself and Glock isn't addressing it. Mr. Glock tends to discourage criticism of his guns, is what I hear. Glock better get on with serious work IMO.
If this is true, the New York Police Department may have the world's most reliable pistol.
Either that or ammo problems. I've tested most all of the Glock line - with no jams nor other malfunctions.
I'm not enthusiastic about Glocks. Grip ergonomics is poor; bite on recoil common on some models.
GUN REVIEWS free from ad-money bias - emphasizing woman-friendliness of tested guns!
I had the same problem with a glock 9mm I bought in 94. I took it back to a deputy that worked part time at the gun store and told him he sold me a lemon. He loaded it up ran the whole clip with no problems. It jammed progressively less for about a year and hasn't had a problem since then.
Glocks are not cheap.
Glocks are VERY reliable.
I own two (2); you own none. I know plenty about them; you know nothing about them.
Stay safe; stay armed; smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Probably not. They saw the problem and replaced it. Rather than destroying the weapon they sold it to the public.
Did you get a good deal on it?
I recall no jams, misfires, or other malfunctions.
Ever.
Glocks are VERY reliable.
You're entitled to your opinion, I have mine. The NYPD didn't buy the HIGH bid weapon BTW.
so naturally, it must be the firearm.
Which is great if yours is the one that jams at the 450,000 mark - but really sucks if it jams at the start, just as you're using the weapon to defend yourself.
And don't they also shoot a special load for NYPD? Its factory ammo but a lower velocity than sold over the counter to everyone else I think.
The one and only IDPA match I've ever been to had a mix of guns, but by far the Glock was most prevalent, followed by the 1911. The Glocks I witnessed shooting, including my own G17 and my friends G19 were flawless. I can't say that for the others though. I watched several FTF and FTE from 1911's. All the malfunctions came from what appeared to be reloaded ammo, but the Glock guys were shooting reloads to.
No one single instance is indicative of a problem. I would place the blame on the NYPD and their weird requirements of guns and ammo than blaming it on any pistol deficiencies.
That's a pretty good description. Other systems work much better IMO. The Glock was intended to replace revolvers used by police officers who (it was said) would have trouble transitioning to a self-loading magazine-fed weapon.
The objective was to capture the market with a low-cost "safe" weapon. It has been successful for Mr. Glock in the police market but that doesn't make it a good weapon. If it takes 2,000 rounds before it's reliable that's not a weapon to put into service until it runs right.
My preference is the Sig P-220, but it's not for everyone.
Of course, I personally carry a HK USP as primary weapon, a Sig 239 as backup #1 (both with Hirtenberger FL +P+ Police ammo), a Walther PP Super 9x18 as backup #2 and a 7.65 PP as backup #3.
Of these the only one that jams is the PP, if you feed it cheap hollowpoints.
Before 1994 the primary weapon was a Walther P1, backup #1 was a P4 - I switched because the P38 line doesn't like to feed all hollowpoints (but they do like the FL ammo - it was designed for it) and you don't always know what ammo you will be able to get.
If you are really worried about jams & can't clear them carry a .38 Detective Special - that is what I bought my sister.
10,000 rounds through my G21 (.45) and counting.
5,000 rounds through my G19 (9mm) and counting.
1,000 rounds through my newly bought G30 (.45) and counting.
Still waiting to see my first malfunction of any kind.
Those underpowered reloads can be a b!tch. I had to fix a Browning BDM that a guy blew up shooting reloads that he made without knowing what he was doing. If he hadn't been wearing glasses he would have lost both eyes. The barrel was bulged so bad I had to cut the takedown lever apart with a dremel tool to get the gun apart.
Not just IDPA. I shoot at three different ranges in the local area. Competition, training and just plain plinking at paper targets. And the vast preponderance of semi-auto handguns I see are Glocks.
Now most of these people are civilians, but the outfit I train with is run by LEOs, and this group absolutely swears by them.
The State of California is down on Glocks for two reasons: 1) The state doesn't like the lack of an external safety and 2) Glock didn't cave in and cut a deal with the Justice Department to avoid the liability lawsuits the Clinton regime tried to ram down the industry's throat.
California just loves Smith and Wesson, for obvious reasons, and mandates them as the standard duty weapon for a lot of LEO agencies.
The Glock's action is AFAIK completely unique. Indeed, I would like to see the terms "Single Action (SA)" and "Double Action (DA)" replaced with four terms, defined as follows:
If one reversed the functionality of the brake pedal (so the breaks would be engaged except when pressure was applied) that might be sorta right. But IMHO the Glock's safety is the easiest one to use properly. Just three rules:
I was using Wolf ammo. Upon firing, the case split, wedging itself firmly into the barrel, which required disassembly of the gun to get the @#%$^ thing out. My local gunsmith told me it's the third problem he's seen with Wolf ammo doing bad things in glocks (one of the other two, it blew up the glock).
Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk
one in 450,000.
let's see here... i shoot idpa... tell me that a 1911 won't jam in 450 shots... just nine boxes...
BWAHAHAHAHAHA... AHHH HAHAHAHA HA.
oh gosh. please stop, you're killing me here.
Glocks are not cheap. - FACT
Glocks are VERY reliable. - FACT
Allow me to give you an example. The sun is hot is a fact. The sun is pretty in an opinion.
Stay safe; stay armed.
My Glock only fires when I pull the trigger. My Glock ALWAYS fires when I pull the trigger.
I am beyond the point of needing a "beginner" gun.
Stay safe; stay armed.
Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk
I've seen similar problems with the mini-Glocks using aluminum-cased *Blazer* ammo from CCI, cheap for inexpensive practice and a neat technological step forward, but far from perfected, it seems. I have had six Glocks since they were introduced, and am now down to two; they've been very reliable and servicable for me, and I have no complaints, but I've gone back to the original full-size Glock 17 9mm and a mini-Glock 30 in .45 for concealment use.
I'd be very interested in knowing what tmodel of Glock you observed your difficulties with, and any more details you might share about your pal's Glock blowup, being known more and more commonly by the less precise term *Glock kaBOOM.* But it's also worth noting that military-issue M1911A1 had difficulties with WWII issue steel-cased ammo too, often found with the headstamp *EC43* from the E/vansville C/hrysler plant where it was produced by the millions. Various stoppages and extractor breakage have been reported, as has ejector battering and ejector pin shearings, though the ammo reportedly functions fine in .45 Thompson and M3/M3A1 submachineguns, in which its use was really intended.
But my dad carried it in his Air Corps-issue .45 with which he guarded Norden Bombsights and classified target analysis documents, and my paternal grandada carried the stuff in the Reising submachinegun with which he guarded a critical railway bridge when there were well-deserved concerns about enemy saboteurs landed by submarine. So the stuff was around then, and sometimes still shows up as closeouts of leftover wartime stocks, nearly 60 years after the fact.
The lesson is clear: a good handgun deserves good ammo. And Glocks are also known to be very intolerant of imprecicely reloaded fodder, so stick with high quality factory ammunition.
-archy-/-
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