Milosevic Trial Resumes

NYT ^ | 8/25/02 | MARLISE SIMONS

[andy_card]

Shows your card there in that statement

Actually, I was doing a little baiting there. I anticipated a reaction. And, so far, Milosevicists on this thread have refused to accept any evidence from any media outlet, from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, from the International War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, or from anybody else for that matter. So please tell me: what sources are unbiased? It seems you only trust official press releases of the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS).

[andy_card]

it ignores the documentation that western military forces -- admittedly German and British, not US as far as I can tell -- were training the KLA in 1998

I don't profess to be an expert on the Balkans, so I'm not familiar with the evidence. Do you have a source?

Let's face it, the KLA has proven an embarrassment and is fast becoming a threat, so now it's expedient to pretend that the marriage was one of convenience instead of mutual lust for Serbian blood.

While I have a deep respect for Serbs and Serbia, I have never been able to understand the Serbian persecution complex. Nobody, outside the Balkans, has a lust for Serbian blood, with the possible exception of the Germans. Yet the Serbs continue to memorialize defeat and persecution by canonizing such events as their defeat to the Turks in 1389. Really, its been over six hundred years, get over it!

As for massacres, I'll pay attention when Messrs _card and Ranger show as much outrage over the mass graves in Afghanistan populated by Talibans who were suffocated by America's allies there.

Ok, I'll be consistent. I want to see General Abdulrashid Dostum punished for his crimes, just as I'd like to see punishment meted out to certain elements of the KLA and Serbian Army and police.

[DTA]

>>>>>Shpendw BOGUJEVCI Male 12 years...Source: Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)<<<<<

Andy, I told you in personal communication to shape up otherwise you will not last long on FR :-) . And you keep sinking in the quicksand of lies. Among dead There were no persons younger than military age in Cuska

Are you referring to this OSCE report?

See what it says about Cuska village:

Cuska-1/Cyshk, Pec/Peje Municipality

42 bodies were discovered buried in a grave. According to an eyewitness 38 bodies were burned to ashes, four were untouched by fire. Two members of the family of a local UCK Commander were among those killed (see below). OSCE visited and documented site on 24th June.

List of identified bodies:
----------------------------------- Name/ Surname/ Sex / Age /
Agim CEKU Male Unknown
Kadri CEKU Male Unknown
-----------------------------------
Isn't it curious that the age of Agim Ceku's father (KLA chief in command) is not known? (Btw. Ceku's father is Hasan, not Agim)

What about others? If they are indeed from the Cuska village, why there are no names in OSCE report?

You know what kids say: Liar, liar, pants on fire

See what professional liars from HRW (Morton "Bin Laden's daddy" Abramowitz et al.) say about Cuska "massacre"

Briefly:

-NO MEN YOUNGER THAN MILITARY AGE
-NO AGIM CEKU FROM OSCE REPORT

Thanks for motivating me to dig this gem out.

Two more strikes and you will demoted to the Court Jester of the Balkans front :-) . We need more sharp guys here, not Bozos.

[The-Olovo-Order]

Not a Slobo-supporter. I know what he has done and should be persecuted in Serbia.

I do not believe sources that outright lie like the OSCE has done. Do you believe what Clinton has said in his testimony, while under oath?

I never trust the SPS, I only answer to Serbia, not an individual. Same as I do for the US. I answer to the constitution, not an elected official, especially if I did not vote for him.

Where is your outrage of the massacre of Afghans by our pilots? Whether that is right or wrong, it is a double edge sword.

What about the massacre of over 1000 Iraqi soldiers by US crossing into Kuwait? You have outrage their?

[joan]

He doesn’t show any connection between these boys names and the May 14 Cuska report he uses which quoted boys as being killed. I can't find these boys names in any report on Cuska. He says in post #58 that the names are taken from an OSCE report, but he doesn't identify where the boys were from and when they died. I asked about his May 14 Cuska quote, and he can't seem to show any boys killed in that attack.

No. House Last Name (Father's Name) First Name Age Notes

1 A Gashi (Shaban) Musë 64
2 B Gashi (Bekë) Emin 60
3 C Gashi (Shaban) Brahim 60
4 E Gashi (Kadri) Isbish 56
5 B Gashi (Dervish) Halil 55
6 D Gashi (Azem) Sylë 49 forced to translate for serbs
7 B Gashi (Azem) Jashar 47
8 C Gashi (Rustem) Ahmet 35
9 D Gashi (Dervish) Skender 37
10 B Gashi (Dervish) Ramê 60
11 A Gashi (Ramê) Xhafer 42
12 Gashi (Dervish) Brahim 56 killed in own house
13 Gashi (Adem) Selim 42 killed in Haki's house
14 Gashi (Nurê) Haki 38 killed in own house
15 B Kelmendi (Dinë) Ibër 52
16 B Kelmendi (Dinë) Skender 46
17 C Kelmendi (Dinë) Besim 36
18 C Kelmendi (Skender) Erdogan
19 19 C Kelmendi (Sylê) Brahim 40
20 B Kelmendi (Isufë) Demê 41
21 C Kelmendi (Shaban) Mentor 23
22 Berisha (Shaban) Avdi 64 killed in own garden
23 F Rama (Hysen) Rasim 40
24 F Shala (Isa) Muhamet 50
25 Ceku (Brahim) Hasan 69 killed at own house
26 Ceku (Ahmet) Kadri 68 killed at own house
27 C Lushi (Haxhi) Sefedin 41
28 B Lushi (Haxhi) Osmon 47
29 A Lushi (Lush) Xhafer 46
30 A Lushi (Lush) Skender 44
31 A Lushi (Lush) Avdulla 60
32 B Lushi (Lush) Ukë 57
33 C Lushi (Lush) Ramiz 41
34 Lushi (Drustem) Qaush 51 outhouse/wc
35 A Lushi (Qaush) Arian 20
36 B Audylaj (Bekë) Gani 42 Guest from Gorozhdevci
37 C Audylaj (Metë) Hasan 40 - 11 -
38 A Shala (Shaban) Isuf 50 Grabol
39 A Krashiqi (Zenel) Emrush 49 Vranoc
40 B Dinaj (Zekë) Ismet 32 Raushiq
41 A Aliaj (Quest) Zequir

There are 41 names listed as being killed in Cuska (it is interesting to note that 14 members are men of the Gashi family, and there are multiple killed from other family members.) It makes me wonder if it was KLA rivalry - as there was some of this that went on after the Serbs were long gone, and the attackers are said to be in mixed uniforms speaking Albanian. Also, attacking other Albanian families in their houses was done fter the Serbs were cleared out:

MUSA FAMILY: WE WERE ATTACKED

Zëri on page five carried the story of Sadik Musaj, who claims to have thrown a grenade at the Haradinaj brothers, who he said came with about 40 people to attack his family.

"It was about 0100 hours, I was at that moment in the bathroom. One brother was awake, while the other part of the family was asleep. They came with 10-15 vehicles, there were 7-8 jeeps and other vehicles. One jeep had Tirana license plates; there was also a red Audi. There were about 40 people. They came from all directions through both gates and over the wall. Ramush Haradinaj was the first, accompanied by Daut, Lieutenant Idriz Balaj, Faton Mehmetaj, the self-proclaimed chief of security for Dukagjin area. A brother saw them from inside and told us to wake up because we are surrounded by the KPC. I was only half-dressed and I came out the door. Ramush directed the laser weapon at me and told me: 'Don't move or you and your family will be liquidated,' then Daut and the Lieutenant reacted and together with Faton Mehmetaj and Bekim Zekaj, they surrounded me."

"I considered myself dead, but I knew that someone from my family was killed, because the automatic weapons hit the windows. At the moment I had revolvers and automatic weapons on my head. I took the grenade the Lieutenant held in his hand, and he was left with the ring. I quickly went backwards, Bekim Zeka (Daut's bodyguard) directed his weapon at me. I removed his hand quickly; the bullets hit the wall and I jumped quickly on the other side, I hided behind the car and threw the bomb. It was a matter of seconds. The bomb exploded near the chair and from its explosion Ramush, Daut and others were wounded, who are probably being treated privately. Then there was a lot of firing from automatic weapons and different arms, and another bomb exploded. All this lasted two hours. My brother jumped from the stairs and scuffled with one of them, took his automatic weapon. He had a revolver in his hand and after a scuffle he luckily escaped. Then they started to withdraw. Later they withdrew the wounded with much difficulty. During all this time, the firing never stopped from both sides. Then, I came to the street to stop somebody to inform KFOR and UNMIK. First came UNMIK and later KFOR. This lasted from 0100 to 0300 hours. When people from UNMIK came, they verified the event, saw the blood of the wounded and somewhere they found the official permit of Ramush. After the search, they verified the blood was theirs and that we were attacked in our yard," said Musaj…

http://www.osce.org/kosovo/documents/reports/hr/part1/p5pec.htm

Early on 14 May many more people were killed in a larger assault a few hundred metres away in Cuska itself. According to witnesses, Serbian forces in mixed uniforms, including local Serbs who were recognized [who were the Serbs recognized, the ones identified were simply identified and not said to be at the scene, as far as I can tell] and some of whom spoke Albanian, came to the village. The forces were apparently after members of a family with connections high in the UCK, and they killed members of that family, as well as many members of another family. On 24 June, the OSCE-TFK documented a grave, where local witnesses said that the remains of 42 local Kosovo Albanians were buried; 38 of the bodies had been burned. The bodies had been found in six houses in an area spread over about 200 metres. Remains of burnt ID cards and empty casings were found.108

http://www.hrw.org/press/1999/oct/kos1025.htm

Villagers positively identified in photographs two individuals they claim were present in Cuska on May 14. [They claim they were in Cuska – but do they claim they were at the scene of the attack?] Witnesses named one man, Zvonimir Cvetkovic, and other sources identified the second man, Srecko Popovic, from these photos. Other witnesses recognized a third man who was present in Zahac on the same day, Slavisa Kastratovic. While none of these men are known to have opened fire on the ethnic Albanians, their presence in the villages means that they should be able to identify the perpetrators, as well as the commanders of the unit.

It doesn’t even seem that the identified men are connected with the scene – simply that villagers are aware of who they are, and that undated photographs taken in different places were shown around to see if anyone simply knew of them.

[andy_card]

I do not believe sources that outright lie like the OSCE has done. Do you believe what Clinton has said in his testimony, while under oath

What? Bill Clinton is affiliated with the OSCE? I think not.

I never trust the SPS, I only answer to Serbia, not an individual. Same as I do for the US. I answer to the constitution, not an elected official, especially if I did not vote for him.

What sources do you trust? Is there any evidence I could show you, from any source, that could persuade you to think otherwise? I suspect I know the answer.

Where is your outrage of the massacre of Afghans by our pilots? Whether that is right or wrong, it is a double edge sword.

Afghan civilians were not intentionally massacred by our pilots, Noam Chomsky to the contrary notwithstanding.

What about the massacre of over 1000 Iraqi soldiers by US crossing into Kuwait? You have outrage their?

Are you telling me you see no difference between the wartime killing of enemy combattants and the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians?

[medved]

Near as I could tell, Milosevic had morphed into a sort of a legitimate national socialist, i.e. what somebody like Hitler or Mussolini might have become if they'd been basically honest and decent people.

There were a half dozen or so real-world rationales for the Kosovo action, none of which had anything to do with Albanian kosovars and all of which together did not add up to a case; the pentagon strongly advised Slick and Albright not to do it.

The real overriding reason for the Kosovo operation was the absolutely necessity (from Klintler's point of view) of getting the Juanita Broaddrick story off the front pages of our journals. There were newspaper accounts and pictures of Slick and his cronies doing high fives and talking about hitting a "home run" with Kosovo two weeks after it started. I say again, I do not want my tax dollars being used to hit home runs which involve bombing innocent Christian nations into the stone age for the benefit of muslims, particularly when the muslims in question are basically gangsters and thugs.

[The-Olovo-Order]

KLA was, is and currently a recognized narco-terrorist outfit. Isnt the US in a war against Terrorism? Therefore, any "kilings" is ok according to your logic. My gosh, the Serbs are scot-free, let em all go with innocence....

OSCE, will not further that discussion as I will refer you to our residential FR info-man...destro

I prefer to bear credibility from others that were there during the episodes of history.

Tropoljac was there, and someone on here I know personally was there. Credible sources of information from them- I do trust.

[Antonius Block versus Death]

bump

[duckln]

Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war... Bwahahahaha.

You sound like a latecoming paid hack who's not interestered in any facts. Over the last 6 months' Milosevic has defended himself against the 'fanatic' leaning NATO Tribunal. Anyone watching would agree that the charges you spout are all political fabrications.

But you have one thing right, it's the western Christian soldiers defending themselves against 'Islamis' bent on ridding the world of people where the only ones left standing are mullahs.

[andy_card]

Near as I could tell, Milosevic had morphed into a sort of a legitimate national socialist, i.e. what somebody like Hitler or Mussolini might have become if they'd been basically honest and decent people.

Thank you Medved, for entertaining us. I love the idea of "Slobo, the decent Nazi."

The real overriding reason for the Kosovo operation was the absolutely necessity (from Klintler's point of view) of getting the Juanita Broaddrick story off the front pages of our journals

If that were true, and Klintoon manufactured the whole thing, then why did European countries take action before us?

[andy_card]

But you have one thing right, it's the western Christian soldiers defending themselves against 'Islamis' bent on ridding the world of people where the only ones left standing are mullahs.

You'd be suprised how few Mullahs there are in the Balkans. These people may be barbaric on occaison, but they're hardly Muslim fundies.

[The-Olovo-Order]

Sta Radis?

[Antonius Block versus Death]

Watching the action...

[The-Olovo-Order]

What is your basis on that statement?
Where u ever in Bosna/RS?

[andy_card]

Sta Radis?

Nuk kuptoj, nuk marr vesh. Nista ne ostaje do da se umre. Naten e mire.

In case you couldn't tell, my knowledge of Serbo-Croatian is limited in the extreme.

[The-Olovo-Order]

To: andy_card you're denying that the Serbs, under Milosevic's direction committed a vast number of war crimes, both in Bosnia and in Kosovo, you're living in a fantasy land. What's also true is that Bosnian Muslims, Kosovar Albanians, and, especialy, Croats committed acts of similar barbarism, albeit on a somewhat smaller scaleHey hotshot, were you there at all during the conflict? How do you learn your information, from NYT, CNN and that sort? You like for me to tell you about the destruction of a "muslim village" the Serbs did commit? I can do my best to recall the name, you want to know why the Serbs destroyed this village, hotshot? 54 posted on 8/26/02 7:38 PM Eastern by The-Olovo-Order

You still have not answered nor replied to the above, hotshot. Trepid you are of fact?

[duckln]

When W demanded Afganistan surrender Osama, 100 Clerics (mullahs) congegated in Kabuh and refused. They should have been atacked and strung up. Then the Taliban taken on, as it was.

It appears that the Islamists can't claim a religeous foundation, they are head choppers and a scourge on the earth. And Milosevic is their enemy.

[andy_card]

Where u ever in Bosna/RS?

Yes, but not since the breakup. I've been in Albania fairly recently, however, where they practice a non-fundamentalist form of Islam. In my experience, however, Albanian religious moderation does not translate into intelligence.

[andy_card]

It appears that the Islamists can't claim a religeous foundation, they are head choppers and a scourge on the earth. And Milosevic is their enemy.

If you think that the same thinking governs Tirana, (Albania) and Qandahar (Afghanistan) you've been living in a hole too long.