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Gun Control From Australia
Email | Unknown | Ed Chenel

Posted on 08/26/2002 7:32:39 AM PDT by ABC123

Gun Control From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:

Australia- wide, assaults are up 8.6%;
Australia- wide, armed robberies are up 44% (yes, 44%!)
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300%.
(Note that while the law- abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break- ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns."

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear your governor or member of the state assembly disseminating this information.

The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens saves lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note Americans, before it's too late!

FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST!

DON'T BE A MEMBER OF THE SILENT MAJORITY AND LET THE VOCAL MINORITY LET THIS HAPPEN IN THE U.S.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: australia; banglist; guncontrol; stats
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1 posted on 08/26/2002 7:32:39 AM PDT by ABC123
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To: ABC123
Why do Australians oil their lawns....?

To prevent their guns from rusting

2 posted on 08/26/2002 7:43:01 AM PDT by spokeshave
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To: ABC123
Do-gooders and the law of unintended consequences.
3 posted on 08/26/2002 7:49:03 AM PDT by AdA$tra
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To: spokeshave; dd5339
LOL!
4 posted on 08/26/2002 7:52:44 AM PDT by Vic3O3
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To: spokeshave; dd5339
LOL!
5 posted on 08/26/2002 7:53:45 AM PDT by Vic3O3
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To: ABC123
In the words of Charleton Heston"They Can Have My Gun When They Pry It From My Cold,Dead Fingers"!
6 posted on 08/26/2002 7:58:48 AM PDT by bandleader
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To: All
Don't bust a gut laughing too hard! It could happen here, if we fail to take the threat seriously. At the moment complacency is our biggest enemy!!
7 posted on 08/26/2002 8:11:12 AM PDT by Destructor
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To: spokeshave
ROFLOL
8 posted on 08/26/2002 8:13:52 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: ABC123
Those on this site who have expressed a migratory interest in Australia should look at this article as a kind of wakeup call.

Australian government has slid so far to the left that they are probably one of the most socialist governments on the planet.

Of course they can find solace in their beer. Some are indeed crying in theirs.

9 posted on 08/26/2002 8:29:58 AM PDT by elcaudillo
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To: ABC123
What is being done to reverse these laws and give Australia a second ammendment. Surely there must be outrage to this. Is the entire country brainwashed, or is the government controlled by a mob?
10 posted on 08/26/2002 10:14:54 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Destructor
It could happen here, if we fail to take the threat seriously. At the moment complacency is our biggest enemy!!

How true. MOLON LABE!

11 posted on 08/26/2002 10:22:10 AM PDT by asformeandformyhouse
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To: ABC123
http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html

Check the difference for yourself.

12 posted on 08/26/2002 11:42:29 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: Destructor
Check the site on #12 and see if this guy is just pushing the numbers. I'm a pro 2nd Amendment as anyone you'll ever find but I wonder which story is the truth.
13 posted on 08/26/2002 11:46:08 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: B4Ranch
Thanks B4, I always thought this was a bogus e-mail.

Regardless, we need to defend our right to keep and bear arms.

14 posted on 08/26/2002 12:27:55 PM PDT by Marine Inspector
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To: B4Ranch
Hard to say Rancher! The government officials of Australia have engaged in their share of "book cooking," so who knows? Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Gun Control is not an effective crime fighting tactic. In fact, crime usually rises, once criminals no longer have to worry about victims being able to defend themselves!

In my opinion, that just seems like common sense. I understand that you don't want our side perpetuating erroneous information, because that undermines our credibility. However, I wouldn't take the other side's bilge as gospel, either!

15 posted on 08/26/2002 1:39:50 PM PDT by Destructor
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To: Destructor
Our thinking coincides quite well. Stay armed and self protected.
16 posted on 08/26/2002 2:40:21 PM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: ABC123
"DON'T BE A MEMBER OF THE SILENT MAJORITY AND LET THE VOCAL MINORITY LET THIS HAPPEN IN THE U.S."

That bears repeating especially since only 5% of all gun owners belong to a pro-gun group. The rest of the gun owners are Freedom Freeloaders, a term created by the NRA.
17 posted on 08/26/2002 2:44:56 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: elcaudillo
..Australian government has slid so far to the left that they are probably one of the most socialist governments on the planet...

Pigeon pucks.

We have a soft right government which is well to the right of, say, California. Cheers, By.

18 posted on 08/26/2002 2:51:18 PM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
"We have a soft right government which is well to the right of, say, California. Cheers, By."

Then how in the hell do you explain the politicos passing such a law?
19 posted on 08/26/2002 2:55:26 PM PDT by demkicker
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To: B4Ranch
....it has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars....

The figures sound correct but the gun buyback was in 1997. Note that the 'personal firearms' were semi-auto rifles and shotguns, plus pump action shotguns. The subsequent jump in crime figures also sound correct although they were released last year, meaning the buyback and crime stats figures have been spliced together. But they still sound accurate. Matter of fact the crime stats are actually more damning than these because gun-related crimes such as home invasion (which have increased dramatically since the gun laws) are often not reported due to the victims' fear of payback. Regards, By.

20 posted on 08/26/2002 3:00:22 PM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie
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To: Jack Black
No, not brainwashed--they are usually 84.7 % drunk every day. They suffer from Foster's beer syndrome. It is a malady that comes from downing a minimum of a six pack a day at the very least. These numbers come from an Aussie with the syndrome and he must be a good source, albiet a very fuzzy one. Under the influence of such a disease, many Aussies fail to vote or can't remember what they voted for.

As for the People's Republic of Australia being far left, try New Zealand. They are left of Mao.

21 posted on 08/26/2002 3:01:38 PM PDT by Paulus Invictus
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To: demkicker
..then how in the hell do you explain the politicos passing such a law?...

You kind of had to be there, DK. We had a psycho kill 30+ people at a tourist resort with an AR-15. The equivalent Stateside would be if someone killed 400 people at Disney World with an M-60. Because he was an alleged nutcase who supposedly should not have had access to guns the press and the pols went crazy with their fingerpointing at Mr Joe Average Gunowner. It was the biggest case of mass hysteria I've ever seen. The laws were rushed through parliament in a frenzy and anyone who opposed them was a 'friend of mass murderers.' A little bit like anyone who opposed the Patriot Act, stateside.

22 posted on 08/26/2002 3:06:40 PM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie
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To: B4Ranch
Assuming the date on Officer Chenel's letter is correct (July 15, 2001), then the response by Ms. Mouzos (who, we should keep in mind, is under heavy pressure as an Australian Government employee to make damned sure those numbers prove the politicians were right) is largely false, and in fact is using the exact tactics that Mr. Break the Chain is accusing Chenel of using: she's a crafty wordsmith who manipulated the statistics to make precisely the point she wanted to.

How so? Easy: Chenel's letter discusses figures comparing July 2000 to July 2001. Only Mouzos's Claim Two even has any 2000 statistics included, much less 2001 stats, and without 2001 stats, it tells us nothing as to whether or not there was a drastic increase of armed robbery with firearms between 2000 and 2001.

Advantage Chenel, unless someone can actually come up with some true 2000-2001 comparisons, and preferably 2001-2002 comparisons as well.

23 posted on 08/26/2002 3:13:30 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: ABC123
Is there any data to back this up? Not that I don't think it's really happening but it would be a lot easier to "prove" that gun control only serves to create victims if we had hard numbers from sources other than Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

EBUCK

24 posted on 08/26/2002 3:21:09 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: Shooter 2.5
That bears repeating especially since only 5% of all gun owners belong to a pro-gun group. The rest of the gun owners are Freedom Freeloaders, a term created by the NRA.

I don't think this is quite fair on the NRA's part, at least not today if it once was in the past. In the 2000 general election, 48% of the people that showed up at the polls owned at least one gun, a number far out of proportion to the ratio of owners/non-owners in general. And while the RATS were concerned with all sorts of other things, almost all of that 48% considered "gun grabbing" to be at or near the top of their list of concerns. It is because of these voters, whether they belonged to the NRA or GOA or any pro-gun group, that caused the RATS to completely drop gun control as an issue in 2000 because their internal polls showed very early that the 2nd-Amendment crowd was huge, angry and ready to vote out anyone they considered to be a threat to their rights. And in the end, they did. It is also because of these voters that gun control has been repealed in so many states and why so many new CCW laws are coming around.

In the end, it doesn't matter so much whether you send the Salvation Army a $10 check ever few months as much as it does when you actually show up at a Salvation Army center and volunteer. Likewise, all the subscriptions to the NRA mean nothing unless people get off their butts and get politically active.

25 posted on 08/26/2002 3:22:06 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: B4Ranch
Thanks for the link. While the letter is mostly correct the 300% claim pisses me off though.

EBUCK

26 posted on 08/26/2002 3:26:12 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: Paulus Invictus
No, not brainwashed--they are usually 84.7 % drunk every day. They suffer from Foster's beer syndrome

No real Australian would be caught dead drinking Foster's unless it was the only beer available for miles around... oh, excuse me, KILOMETERS.

Likewise, while we pay $5 or $6 a botlle for Corona in the US because it's so exotic, Mexicans consider it to be the Pabst Blue Ribbon of their country, if not lower. It's the sort of beer that homeless winos can pick up for the equivalent of 50 cents or so.

And it works both ways: There are plenty of countries where the people actually consider Budweiser to be an outstanding import that's well worth the $7 or so per 16-oz bottle they pay for it, while we can get fourties of Bud from the Quik-E-Mart on the corner for a buck forty-nine.

27 posted on 08/26/2002 3:30:38 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
You kind of had to be there, DK. We had a psycho kill 30+ people at a tourist resort with an AR-15. The equivalent Stateside would be if someone killed 400 people at Disney World with an M-60.

Ironically, it was the massacre at Columbine that finally got gun owners off their butts in this country, because so many politicians were starting to bleat out "ban the guns!" in unison that the 2nd-Amendment crowd realized that it was for real this time, and they could end up losing practially all their gun rights. So they fought back, as I noted in a post above. And they won so overwhelming that most gun control advocacy groups are either in or near bankruptcy, and it will probably be a generation before any serious attempt at gun control ever gets any traction again, except in a few ultraliberal states where we'll probably have to go through another couple of election cycles to vote out the hoplophobes. (9/11 helps immensely in this aspect, though we had already won everything I'm writing about it in this post long before that date.)

28 posted on 08/26/2002 3:36:52 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: EBUCK
Is there any data to back this up? Not that I don't think it's really happening but it would be a lot easier to "prove" that gun control only serves to create victims if we had hard numbers from sources other than Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

I ran ran a search ... The extremely accurate and truly non-partisan Urban Legends Reference Pages has MA href="http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/ausguns.htm">decided the Chenel letter is false, not because they have proof Chenel doesn't exist or that he's a flat-out liar, but instead bases much of its decision on the reasoning that a) all stats can be skewed, as we all know, b) that so few Australians owned guns anyway in the first place (due to no 2nd Amendment-style law ever existing there) that it skews the results, and c) you need a long-term analysis of this sort of data to truly determine the effect, not just one year's data.

So really, they're not saying he's absolutely wrong, just more that neither Chenel or anyone else has enough information yet to make a truly accurate determination of the effects of the gun bans.

29 posted on 08/26/2002 3:47:14 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: EBUCK
Whoops, correct URL here:

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/ausguns.htm
30 posted on 08/26/2002 3:49:34 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: Timesink
I'll still have to stay with my opinion on the gun owners who have done nothing. What's happening in California right now? I haven't read the thread but it doesn't look like the dems are shaking in their boots. There are only five million gun owners who are willing to get out there and fight and that counts the members who are supporters of more than one group.
In the last election, I saw gun owners who were actively working for Gore. They don't seem to care about their rights.

I don't care what gun group they finally join. They should actively join one of the groups and vote the gun grabbers out.
31 posted on 08/26/2002 4:13:41 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Timesink
...ironically, it was the massacre at Columbine that finally got gun owners off their butts in this country, because so many politicians were starting to bleat out "ban the guns!" in unison that the 2nd-Amendment crowd realized that it was for real this time, and they could end up losing practially all their gun rights....

Yep. I followed all that via the portal of FR. Even got some letters published in US papers, warning them not to follow Australia's flawed 'gun control' precedent. I think 911 and Ashcroft's statements have had a big effect too, Timesink. There's an under-discussed issue pinging around in the public's subconscious since then; 'can I depend on the government alone, to protect me and mine?'

32 posted on 08/26/2002 4:18:19 PM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie
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To: ABC123; All
FYI--

Statistical Facts Gun-haters Run From

-Empty-Barrel Gun Policies-A legacy of nonsense from Clinton, Blair, and the Left--

-A Problem With Guns (Long... but SOOOO good)--

-Swiss Gun Laws- and some rebuttal to HCI "spin"--

US vs. Switzerland Gun Laws

Shooting More Holes in Gun Control

Gun Control Down Under

HCI Aussie Style (read it and weep-or laugh)

The Great Australian Gun Law CON!

Gun Crimes Surge in London

33 posted on 08/26/2002 4:19:12 PM PDT by backhoe
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To: Timesink
..that so few Australians owned guns anyway in the first place (due to no 2nd Amendment-style law ever existing there) that it skews the results...

Wow. Interesting, that snopes would get it so wrong. Just in my little state of New South Wales, there's over one million guns formally registered, with perhaps half as many again unregistered, depending on who you're talking to. More details available at The Sporting Shooter's Association.

34 posted on 08/26/2002 4:21:55 PM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie
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To: Timesink
And it works both ways: There are plenty of countries where the people actually consider Budweiser to be an outstanding import that's well worth the $7 or so per 16-oz bottle they pay for it, while we can get fourties of Bud from the Quik-E-Mart on the corner for a buck forty-nine.

Two words: ROLLING ROCK.

I'm from Western PA and wouldn't even piss in the bottle (I have standards for my urine). But, at least for a while, it was very big in the big cities on the east coast.

35 posted on 08/26/2002 4:36:04 PM PDT by TomB
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To: elcaudillo; Byron_the_Aussie
<< Australian government has slid so far to the left that they are probably one of the most socialist governments on the planet. >>

Rubbish.

Aussie's present feral gummint is at least as conservative as America's and is only as close to being fascist as is America's; which is the nearest -- in its relationships to and with corporations -- to Musolini's 1930s Italian Fascist Gummint as the planet has seen since Musolini's 1930s Italian Fascist Gummint!
36 posted on 08/26/2002 5:04:49 PM PDT by Brian Allen
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To: All
MORE GUNS LESS CRIME bump.
37 posted on 08/26/2002 5:46:52 PM PDT by Sungirl
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To: Timesink
Corona Extra kills! In Mexico it's like the water---don't drink the Corona! However, good on you aussies! I hope you can vote in a better government soon. We need one too, but resist the leftists and gun-grabbing RATS.
38 posted on 08/26/2002 6:02:20 PM PDT by Paulus Invictus
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Byron_the_Aussie
"We have a soft right government which is well to the right of, say, California. Cheers, By."

Last time I checked the people of California could still own guns!

40 posted on 08/27/2002 5:10:45 AM PDT by Destructor
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To: B4Ranch
"Our thinking coincides quite well. Stay armed and self protected."

Thanks, I will until the day I die. You do the same.

41 posted on 08/27/2002 5:12:38 AM PDT by Destructor
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To: Timesink
The extremely accurate and truly non-partisan Urban Legends Reference Pages

ROTFLMAO.

Snopes is almost as much of a joke as the urban legends they try to debunk. I have seen too many ULs they have called false only to read the associated reasoning to find the facts either support no conclusion or the opposite conclusion.

42 posted on 08/27/2002 5:23:16 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: Shooter 2.5
Really only 5%?
43 posted on 08/27/2002 7:19:27 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: bandleader
"In the words of Charleton Heston"They Can Have My Gun When They Pry It From My Cold,Dead Fingers"!"

Right. They'll get mine with a hot barrel and a lot of empty magazines.


44 posted on 08/27/2002 7:39:37 AM PDT by PLMerite
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To: jjm2111
It may not even be that high. A number of gun activists belong to more than one group. I'm a member of the NRA and the Texas State Rifle Association.
45 posted on 08/27/2002 8:33:36 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Shooter 2.5
I'm a member of GOA and NRA.
46 posted on 08/27/2002 9:38:40 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: jjm2111
That's a good combination. I just wish that the GOA would learn to present their accomplishments and quit criticizing the NRA. We have to work together and realize that no gun group is the enemy. The enemy is the anti-gun politicians.
47 posted on 08/27/2002 10:38:52 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: Shooter 2.5
I agree. Howver, I get a little disillusioned w/ the NRA at times. While they do an EXCELLENT, and I do mean EXCELLENT job at gun safety and education, their sell-out nature in the political arena gets frustrating. They called me up once asking me to donate money to support the lawsuit against the campagin-finance law. I told the very nice, but quite condescending lady on the phone, that if the NRA would actually sue on 2nd Amendment grounds, I'd think about donating extra money. I told her that the intentions of the founding fathers, as demonstrated in the federalist and anti-federalist arguments; and in their private papers, show that the 2nd amendment supports individual ownership and bearing of arms. Even liberals like Larry Tribe from harvard have admitted this. Get a Second Amendment case before the Supreme Court. Needless to say, she had no answer.

If the 2nd Amendement was as unassailable as the 1st Amendment, Wayne LaPierre would have a much lower expense account.

I used to be a member of Keep-and-Bear-Arms.com. It's generally a good organization w/ good people, but they seem a touch tin-foil-hattish at times.
48 posted on 08/27/2002 10:48:40 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: jjm2111
When the residents of Morton Grove Illinois tried to bring their case before the Supreme Court, the court refused to hear the case. Reality is that either the court refuses to hear the case or we would lose. The NRA isn't the only group out there. If it was so easy to bring a case before the court, why hasn't another group done so?
KeepandBearArms.com is way out there. They're another group that has a special column where all they do is whine about the NRA. Right now, they're upset that Ashcroft didn't pay attention to their petition. They had 20,000 signatures. I have news for them. If they paid a little attention to the other groups they would know that petitions are sent out all the time. I must have signed dozens of them from the NRA or other groups.
49 posted on 08/27/2002 11:00:14 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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To: elcaudillo
Anyone who even suggests that the current Australian Government is in any way left simply knows nothing of Australia.Australia is probably even right of the Bush government and our government has the overhwelming support of the populus unlike America where perhaps almost half of the people are at the very least,soft left.Our gun laws are the only major flaw in an otherwise extremely conservative government.The whole problem can be traced back to one massacre that cause mass public hysteria.However,we CAN still own guns and any person who participated in the gun buy back scheme is a fool.Anyway,i never gave up my beretta and i will hold onto it,whether legal or not.Keep your insults for your enemies,not one of the two allies you have left.....and the whole beer guzzling stereotype is a bit old,and i've been to texas so dont start me on that one.If you have a problem with that,then i wish we could meet face to face 'mate'.
50 posted on 08/27/2002 3:33:58 PM PDT by smpc
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