FBI's bullying tactics are growing tiresome

SUN-TIMES ^ | 8/29/02 | ROBERT NOVAK

[FreeTheHostages]

"Hatfill is innocent.
There is no evidence."

The first sentence: presumptively, at this time. As to the future, I don't know and I'm not sure any of us do.

As to the second: the FBI had something, because they got a judge to sign a warrant on probably cause for a search of his house. So there's something . . . . Plus, he lost his security clearance before 9/11. That really gives me pause. (That doesn't make him guilty: it must makes me slow to criticize the FBI until we all learn the "more" that's not public yet.) For all the criticism of leaking, it does appear that the FBI has evidence that's not leaking here. The conclusion isn't that there's no evidence: perhaps the right conclusion is that the FBI isn't leaking it.

[Nogbad]

Yes Mueller's a fine man
and the FBI is not on a witch hunt
but sometimes fine men must act in devious ways
for reasons of national security.

When the true story is known
(but when will that be?)
we shall all be amazed.

[FreeTheHostages]

Um, that's my position.

Yup, I realize it has weaknesses.

As to "devious," I dunno. Law enforcement is permitted to be devious, they just can't violate the law. There's tricks that are legal. When I was a prosecutor, I'll never forget: I had a detective on the stand who had purchased narcotics undercover as part of a sting. Defense counsel tried to impeach him with the fact that defense counsel's client (read, criminal) had asked detective if detective was an undercover before doing the deal, and detective had said "no." [D'oh -- how dumb can you get? Like an undercover's going to admit to being one!]

My detective was cross-examined as follows: "So, you admit you LIED to my client on the street!!?" To which my detective said, "I prefer to think of it as gaining their confidence."

Cops can be devious and tricky. I hope the FBI is pulling every lawful, devious trick in the book to catch WHOEVER is the anthrax mailer. And if it's not Hatfill, I'll be right there with you supporting his civil lawsuit against the FBI. I'm just not certain it's not him yet. Despite a lot of what people say on these threads, I'm not persuaded that just because the FBI hasn't leaked it doesn't mean the FBI doesn't know something here. *Something* has been shown to a judge to get a warrant on the guy's house. *Something* was shown to his bosses to get his security clearance revoked. *Something* is going on.

[FreeTheHostages]

Oh, and if you're right and I'm wrong, a possibility that I acknowledge, for my main point is that we both speculate, I'll eat crow publicly. I was recently wrong here (thinking that someone wasn't a closet lefty and that people were being ad hominem, when in fact they were) and I did indeed eat my crow publicly: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/740088/posts?page=85#85

[Nogbad]

*Something* is going on.

Yes, we all agree, but what is that Something??

I'll throw this out as a hypothesis:

An attack on Iraq is imminent.
One of the reasons that will be announced
is that President Bush knows the anthrax came from Iraq.
However, GWB does not want Saddam to know (yet) that he knows.
So to throw him off guard, it is made to appear that the FBI believes an American did it.

(This is one hypothesis amongst many)

Having studied this case closely,
I would be thunderstruck if it turned out that Hatfill did it
There are 1000 reasons why this possibility is absolutely ludicrous.

[FreeTheHostages]

Well, I don't claim to have studied this carefully. People here have given me links to other threads, but those also contain well-reasoned speculation but no hard facts.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

This is what happens with UN INFORMED people, or PEOPLE UNABLE TO USE READING COMPREHENION.

I suggest you Re-read my posts.

HINT: I'm telling you that there may be more behind Hatfill than you know right now. It may have been his own Lawyer or Radio friend, who alerted the media. NOT THE FBI.

It may also turnout, that not unlike the perk in Germany who professed his innocence on TV, but was still a suspect, and later "Today" was arrested for involvement with al quaida!!!! That Hatfill will be too. I'd be curious to hear who really alerted the media to his apartment when they knew the teams were coming. Think about it!

So yeah.. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to my government. You got it!!!! And if they are wrong, I'll be screaming as loud as anyone that they need to publicly apologize and make restoration to this fellow. Restoration by being extremely public about his innocence.

But until we know more.. I'm behind the Gov. Especially in light of Gen Ashcrofts response after the professors first public statements.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Oh please!!!

If you or others of like mind are getting bumped, it is because you say you are conservative minded, then come in here and squawk a liberal agenda.

Look, There have been American Citizens who may or may not have been guilty who lived in safe houses because once things had gone as deep as they did, our agents would have been compromised, and the mission would have been too. But if you think for one minute they weren't guilty of something, then you are truly very naive. Belive me, they led the agents to a threat in some way or manner. They were not totally innocent. Tell me ONE case that was otherwise!!!

Yes,.. I know of Agents. Some who had whitehouse duty, who under Clinton, were appalled at what they saw. They still did their jobs.

So if you think I'm one who will sit back while you bash people who are a hell of a lot braver than you, who are serving this country knowing they may give the ultimate, then please forgive me for not siding with your naive views regarding this matter. And, if you truly know an agent, give him my freepmail addy, and I'd be happy to talk to him. AFter all, what does he have to be afraid of? I could even help him possibly.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Thank you kind sir!! BTTT

[Texasforever]

Hatfill is innocent.

Then the case is closed. Good job.

[glorygirl]

"But if you think for one minute they weren't guilty of something, then you are truly very naive."

I can tell you of 20. But you would argue against each one, no matter how much evidence I provided, including court transcripts, admissions from the law enforcement officers, judge's orders, witness statements, and confessions from the people who actually committed the crimes.

You know, I felt kind of bad after my earlier post, wondering if I had overreacted, but now I don't because I apparently did not.

Everybody is guilty of something. That doesn't mean everybody should go to jail for 30 years, as the man did in the case I cited.

I didn't ask you if you "knew of" FBI agents. I asked you if you knew any.I asked you if you have ever spoken with any FBI agents, in any depth.

I have known many more law enforcement officers.And the hands of all are NOT clean. If you don't believe me, ask your friendly neighborhood cop.

As far as my bravery, is concerned, or my history of serving this country -- you know nothing about me, except perhaps what you think you glean from my homepage.

It is wise not to make too many assumptions.

That is why I'm not throwing my hat in the ring in regard to Hatfill. He might be guilty, but, given what happened with Richard Jewell (another one you might consider re: my first paragraph), I'll never be quick to give credence to the FBI again, especially when they don't have enough evidence against someone to file charges.

I am many things, sir/maam, but naive is not one of them. And I'm not a liberal either. Just someone who looks for the truth and who can spot when it's not being told.

John Ashcroft, for all his purported bravery, is alarmist, and, at a minimum, he is frightened of revealing the truth, and he does a real disservice to the American people in that regard. That's the difference between him and Donald Rumsfeld, and that's the reason Rumsfeld is so much more likable.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Everybody is guilty of something (????????)

You are so wrong, it is ridiculous!!!!!!

Trust me, if I could be in your face right now, I would be. And there would be no contest, because I could name you friggin names of friends who died for this country, a brother I lost because he believed in her, and my husband who held the arms and legs of amputee's as they lay there dying for all of us, Who was shot down, and who had a rotor failure in enemy territory and you say you know better what our agents and troops have gone through. I THINK NOT!!! And myself, who worked on Vets, and who lost people very close to me, who died THINKING they were doing so so much for a grateful nation. Then I hear this kind of SLIME from you?? You make me sick!! What have you done for your country today? And yeah, those who have sacrificed life and limb, have more to say than you do. Deal with it,.and be THANKFUL FOR IT!!

But you know what? I will re-interate what I have said a million times, if you think this country is so wrong, so corrupt, why do you stay here? I happen to feel it is the best country in the World. I have had family and friends die for her, I have served her without question. (As it should be with our military, God forbid it should ever be different). But what I'm sick and tired of, and obviously many other Americans are too, is people like "you" who are afforded the security you are, on the literal backs (though the reality is they are truly REAL in that they are the physical backs of those who DIE for you and me) afford YOU the right to even speak out against them. Amazing..huh?

Well, as a veteran who served YOU, and was willing to die for YOU, I think your attitude is disgusting and it makes me sick to my stomach.

I just want ever person who is presently serving our country, to KNOW, that there are many, even the majority who know how dangerous your job is, and we want you to know how much we love you and appreciate you!!!!

We truly wish the rest, the naysayers, would move to another country, and after a year or two, report back to us, on how much BETTER that other countries government is.

As for us,... after serving, and knowing our country inside out, we feel blessed to have known the intimate details, and feel priviledged to know how well it is working.

The only thing we feel sorry for, is that there is one uninformed citizen that doesn't realize what you put on the line, even for them. Sad ....and it needs to change NOW!!!!!!!!

[GirlNextDoor]

Thank you for the link in #30.

I see you've been attempting to disclose some unwelcome truths. Hope the brickwall didn't injure you too badly and thanks for the effort. :-)

It seems some are under the impression that FBI = Troops. We are extremely fortunate that that is NOT the case.(Though even now the "Justice" Dept. would like to see that changed.)

Thank goodness the many brave men and women who have fought and died for our country haven't had to soil themselves with such injustices staining their records.

FRegards.

[GirlNextDoor]

Now, what I would like to see happening would be akin to how I've seen some large corporations handle restructuring problems: everyone is basically fired and has to re-apply for their job. Or any other of the jobs.

That would be an excellent plan. But I can see the argument being made that, for such a large organization, some other type of support structure (expansion of government again) would be required during each of these four year shuffles.

I'm not trying to over-simplify the problem, truly. I realize that under the current laws and societal atmosphere of litigation we have, it is a very difficult undertaking.

I just think that appointing a John Ashcroft to the "top echelon" (among other things) doesn't allow me to have much faith in a serious effort to clean out corruption.

[Nogbad]

Your position is 100% in agreement with the far left on this issue.

You are saying Hatfill is guilty until proved innocent.

[Nogbad]

Then the case is closed. Good job.

As a matter of fact it is, for me.
Unlike you, I have spent hundreds of hours studying the anthrax mailings.
Although I am a layman, I have learned how powdered anthrax is made,
what kind of lab is required, the security problems involved.
I have studied what is known about the genetic analysis.
I have communicated with many other interested parties in this matter
including people involved in anthrax research at leading institutions.

The universal opinion of informed observers is that this anthrax,
far purer and more concentrated than any ever produced by the US military,
could not have been produced by a single individual in a private lab
and even if by some miracle it had been,
the FBI would have located this lab ages ago.

All the scientific authorities know this
but it seems that Mueller and the FBI do not
(or pretend not to).
This is not too surprising,
since the FBI did not even consult the leading authority
on producing weaponized anthrax
until 7 months after the investigation began.
Even now, their technical knowledge seems negligible.

[FreeTheHostages]

"Your position is 100% in agreement with the far left on this issue.

You are saying Hatfill is guilty until proved innocent."

Funny, I reread their post. They didn't say that.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

"You are saying Hatfill is guilty until proved innocent"

I'm saying I will give the benefit of the "doubt" to our Justice Department for now. DO you know something I don't? Do you have PROOF that it was an agent who tipped off the media? How do you know it wasn't Hatfill, or his attorney, or a friend of his?

If Hatfill is innocent, it will come out. There could be some very good reasons for things progressing like they are. We just don't KNOW all the details yet.

If he is innocent, and all this "outing" was done by our Government, then the man is OWED a huge apology.

What I've tried to convey on this thread, is we all need to wait for more information before condemning the man, or judging him totally innocent.

Just as the guy in Germany who was recently found to have been involved with al quaida, even after having gone public decrying his innocence on television, the investigation continued despite his very public announcement of innocence, only to eventually lead to his arrest.

If the Government could tell us more, they would. That they aren't saying more or things like he/Hatfill isn't a suspect, then that tends to make me reserve judgement. ON HATFILL OR THE GOVERNMENT!!

[Mitchell]

Hatfill is innocent.
There is no evidence.
If you want to know why the FBI is so interested in him, ask Daschle, Leahy and Barbara Hatch Rosenberg because the FBI is acting out of strong political pressure.

You mentioned something a while ago which I still find to be a curious question. Why would Daschle and Leahy be helping to divert the investigation away from the people who attempted to murder them?

I can certainly imagine them playing political games, while resting securely in the knowledge that the U.S. military will take care of the real problem. But it still seems bizarre.

[Nogbad]

Like many things, I think this can be explained by stupidity.
You don't need to be too bright to be a politician.
Barbara Hatch Rosenberg did a con job on them, and they believed her.