Did U.S. shoot first at Pearl Harbor?

Associated Press ^ | 29 August 2002

[r9etb]

The shot from No. 3 gun fired at a range of 560 yards or less struck the submarine at the waterline which was the junction of the hull and coning tower. Damage was seen by several members of the crew. This was a square positive hit.

If this is the sub sunk by the Ward, then the damage should be visible. If it's not there, then perhaps the Ward sank another sub with its depth charges.

[DoughtyOne]

That title implies agression on the part of the United States. It is offensive and evidence of an insensitive organization unworthy of having their thoughts desiminated.

An enemy sub in our waters, a fleet of aircraft carriers in the Hawaiian Island vicinity, hundreds of planes in route to Pearl Harbor, and the Associated Press says we fired the first shot.

If every Japanese plane was shot down before it dropped it's load over Pearl Harbor, would that make us the agressor nation?

The Associated press is full of poop!

[Willie Green]

It's not "revisionist" in the least. We've always maintained that we shot first. We sunk a hostile sub in our waters, as we should have.
Their act of entering our waters with hostile intent precipitated our actions, which were wholly justified.

Well heck, most sensible people already knew that.
And now they've found the sub, which is historicly interesting.
But it still isn't a valid reason for the sensational headline that questions that fact.
The headline should be more assertive, stating that the sub has been found.
Questioning whether or not we sunk it only leads to revisionist poppycock.

[DoughtyOne]

The title should have read, "New Evidence Reveals Enemy Sub in US Waters, Spoted and Sunk Before Main Attack on Pearl Harbor"

[RightWhale]

Pacific Fleet Headquarters wasn't in the same mental state of readiness as the captain and crew of the USS Ward.

No, they weren't. Just because "The Japanese carrier fleet has disappeared and we don't know where they are" is no reason to be on alert. After all, they were looking to the south and found just the small sub. Too bad the carrier fleet was to the north. Fortunately [luck?] the American Navy carriers were out of port or it would have been a short and most unsatisfactory war.

[Poohbah]

No, they weren't. Just because "The Japanese carrier fleet has disappeared and we don't know where they are" is no reason to be on alert.

No, but receiving a message that opens with "THIS MESSAGE IS TO BE CONSIDERED A WAR WARNING" shoulda woken some folks up and made 'em realize that things were getting serious.

[ArrogantBustard]

then the damage should be visible.

The sub led four other Japanese midget submarines to Pearl Harbor to take part in the attack. The newly discovered sub was believed to be the one sunk by the destroyer USS Ward before the attack began. Wiltshire said the crew is certain that this sub was sunk by the Ward because of a bullet hole in the conning tower and because it still has both torpedoes. Three of the subs have been previously accounted for; the remaining sub had fired both of its weapons.

The damage, apparently, is visible. Strongly suggests that this wreck is the Ward's target. FWIW, I think the wrick should be raised and preserved for the historical artifact that it is. Human remains, if any, should be returned to Japan for burial.

[dead]

I read this article earlier on another site, and it did not include this stupid headline.

I thought the poster added it, but after checking the link, I can see that it is MSNBC that put this stupid spin on the story.

I should have guessed.

[LibWhacker]

Another report said we sunk that sub one hour before the attack on Pearl Harbor. And I kinda doubt that. But in any event, by that time, Jap planes were already airborne and headed for Pearl Harbor.

[Non-Sequitur]

Here is a bit of fun trivia for you. The USS Ward (DD-139), Lt. W.W. Outerbridge USN, commanding, is credited with firing the first shot of the war. After Pearl Harbor the Ward went on to play a part in several campaigns in the Pacific. She was converted to a fast transport ship (APD) and as such was involved in the landings in the Phillippeans. In early December 1944 the USS Ward was attacked and damaged by a kamikaze attack. USS O'Brien (DD-725) was ordered alongside to render assistance. The salvage attempt failed and the commanding officer of the USS O'Brien was ordered to sink the Ward with gunfire. The commaning officer of the O'Brien? None other than Commander W.W. Outerbridge, USN. True story.

[erikm88]

I'm sure this Japanese midget sub had time stamps, and documentation that showed we sunk it before the attack ensued, and this is the evidence that clearly shows we "fired the first shot.." right???

This coming from the University of Hawaii, is about as credible as Global Warming sceintists...

--erik

[Howlin]

6:37a.m. PST?

Gosh, it sure is lucky that Japan had that whole WAVE of fighters already in the air so they could "strike back" at 7:00 a.m. PST, isn't it?

[Willie Green]

but after checking the link, I can see that it is MSNBC that put this stupid spin on the story.
I should have guessed.

Yep. That explains it all.

Thanks for checking the link!

[skeeter]

Interesting. Locating this sub lays to rest the last mystery of 12/7/41.

I mean besides whether FDR knew in advance... and we'll never know about that.

[George W. Bush]

Please revise your headline to:

Warmongering Madman FDR Provoked
War With Peace-loving Japan

Seems fair to me.

[al_c]

What's up with that title?

It came from MSNBC. 'Nuf said.

[Willie Green]

Gosh, it sure is lucky that Japan had that whole WAVE of fighters already in the air so they could "strike back" at 7:00 a.m. PST, isn't it?

Yep. Just think... if they had to wait for a trip report about Amtrak, World War II might not have happened!

;^)

[Poohbah]

I'm sure this Japanese midget sub had time stamps, and documentation that showed we sunk it before the attack ensued, and this is the evidence that clearly shows we "fired the first shot.." right???

The USS Ward spotted, attacked with gunfire, and then depth-charged a midget sub attempting to gain entry to the harbor area at 0637 local time on 12/7/41. That was a full 78 minutes prior to the first aircraft attack. This midget sub was found close to the position of the Ward at that time, and has damage consistent with the Ward's account of events.

Yup, we fired first--and with good reason for doing so.

[Jeff Head]

This is not new. We have known this from the start. They just found the thing (midget sub).

That sub was attempting to get into the harbor and add to the carnage that its animal brothers in the air were about to inflict.

Any unknown/hostile sub trying to enter that harbor HAD to be treated in this way ... and it was ... and it would have been had those aircraft not been about to attack as well.

The hostile intent and attempts were initiated by the Japanese in a surprise assault on Pearl Harbor. This sub was just a part of that. I'm gald in that case we got the first shots off and sunk the bastards.