And here's the link...
I wish I could point to the guy, but I guess it's better that I cannot find our Seals on the web...
Posted on 08/30/2002 7:42:59 PM PDT by Black Powder
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:40:51 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
A U.S. Navy SEAL commander died Tuesday when he fell while fast roping down from an Army UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter during training exercises in southern El Salvador.
Cmdr. Peter G. Oswald, head of the navy's Puerto Rico-based Special Warfare Unit Four, was killed during a training exercise outside Comalapa, a city 25 miles (40 kilometers) south of the capital, San Salvador, said a spokesman for U.S. Southern Command in Miami, Florida, responsible for U.S. military operations and training in South and Central America and the Caribbean.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
And here's the link...
I wish I could point to the guy, but I guess it's better that I cannot find our Seals on the web...
This is very tragic, but things like this happen for no apparent reason...even "young" folks have heart attacks, for example (remember Jim Fixx?!)...if it happened solely because of this type of event, that would be at least some sort of extremely small consolation...
If there was a flaw in the planning, execution, or equipment used for this "training exercise", that would be truly horrible, and expect there to be consequences (rightly so)...
Sometimes, it's just the statistics...
The rope is attached to the rescue hoist and tossed out in a kit bag, it goes to the ground. The fast ropers are not attached to the rope, they just grab it with thick rappeling gloves on, get a grip, and slide down. To slow or stop, you just grip the rope harder. Your hands get hot, but it's not too bad.
If you hop out of the helo before you have a good grip, you are going straight to the ground. This is what happened to the newly arrived private on "Blackhawk Down".
41 year old Commanders (O-5, = Army LTCOL) in NAVSPECWAR are not "operators", they are not in platoons constantly training. They do a few dives and jumps and toss a few blocks of C-4 around every month just to maintain hazardous duty pay quals, but they are NOT operators.
I would be very interested in seeing the records on when this CDR last fast roped. Too much hoo-ya spirit and wanting to hang with the operators may have done him in. It's a shame, but it happens.
Don't take this in any way that it is not intended, but F.Y.
The MAN died under circumstances that you know a little about, but obviously not enough.
Try and show a little respect and a little dignity for the family and for the man.
I have read some cold hearted comments, but to say that he was at fault, when he was risking his life to help us?
You sir are a sad son of a bitch. F.Y.
"FY" is not much of a comment, mainly it goes to your intelligence. I have known folks who died in CQB drills, parachuting, and diving mishaps. Usually somebody screwed up. Your saccarine nonqual tears won't disguise the reality.
This thread is about a Seal Hero, not about you. You brought criticism upon yourself, IMO.
(steely)
The point I made was that he was showing, as are you, a tremendous lack of respect for somebody who just died.
I was always under the impression that Seals, Rangers, Delta and all other special forces had more respect for their comrades then the two of you are showing. Apparently, I am mistaken.
My use of F.Y. was not reflective of my level of intelligence, but was reflective of the utter contempt I have for someone who could make the cold hearted statement that was made.
If anyone else has experience at it on this forum, let them jump right in.
If someone dies in the specops community on a fairly dangerous training evolution during a one week meet-and-greet dog-and-pony-show, (which is what the trip to ES was from the details given), and he's a 41 year old 0-5 and not an operator, I immediately wonder when the last time he grabbed a fast rope was. Sorry, that's called a "reality check".
The fact is, being a SEAL operator is a young man's game, 80% of operators are in their 20s, and 19.9% of the rest (the platoon chiefs and some E-6s) are in their early to mid 30s. Officers are only platoon operators through their 0-3 time (Navy LT) which is late 20s.
LCDRs and CDRs and above are staff officers, Ops bosses, team XOs, etc. They are NOT OPERATORS, and do not go through the massive ongoing training that the young studs on the platoons do.
Despite what that nonqual fatboy Tom Clancy might have written (made up entirely from a fertile imagination and zero % from experience or first hand knowledge) CDRs and LTCOLs do NOT run around the jungles with machineguns. "Reality check please".
So if one of these older staff officers goes on a one week dog and pony show and falls out of a Blackhawk, I'm very sorry it happened, but it makes me wonder when the last time he fastroped was.
(Notice that none of the active platoon OPERATORS fell.)
Trust me, the type of comments I am making are being made by team OPERATORS as we speak. They will go to the funeral, but they will want to know what REALLY killed the CDR, because their a$$es are on the line if there was a gear failure or riging issue or pilot error or whatever. They have to fastrope all the time, day and night, through trees or onto moving boats with full gear. More than ANYONE the OPERATORS will want to find out EXACTLY why this (non-operator) 41 year old CDR died doing something they do all the time. If it was not his mistake, the problem could kill THEM next.
Very sad that this officer didn't maturely face his readiness to do this sort of thing before trying it.
10-4. I have learned a great deal from this thread. Our thoughts and prayers to this CDR, has family and all SEALS involved.
Are there many "operators" in our forces that are as petty and immature as you? If so, I fear, you have by your ill-advised posts revealed a potential weakness in our national defense structure. One that could be turned to advantage by a cleverer adversary.
(steely)
People can like it or not but veterans here will agree that this is one possibility that resulted in the accident. Fast roping is as unforgiving as the law of gravity it plays upon. If you don't pay attention it'll break/burn your body and possibly as we see here kill you. I still have scars on legs where I made the mistake of using them along with hands to break my desent. Bad burns if ya do it wrong.
Travis , disregard those that trash SEAL's who are SEAL's commenting about SEAL SOP.........they just ain't worth yer time IMHO. Dog crap on yer shoe IMHO.
Stay Safe !
I, in no way, interpreted Travis' comments as a slur on the man's character or abilities..........just a sad observation that sometimes, the "older guys" have to know when to hang up the weapon, or the left seat, or...................and stick to commanding units. It DOES happen.
First Commandment of Fast-Roping: Thou Shalt Heedest Thine Altitude, Lest the Earth Riseth Up and Smite Thee
What you don't understand is that ALL military combat arms people KNOW they have a dangerous occupation,and they all KNOW that fatal accidents WILL happen in training. You develope a gallows sense of humor about it,or you can't function. If you are afraid of dying,you have no business being in a combat arms job,and especially not in a Special Warfare job. Football players get bad knees. Tennis players get tennis elbow. Warriors die. Travis is right. This IS a young man's game. Most people are too beat up by the time they are 40 to stay active on the teams because of this. Your coordination starts to go,so does your wind,your muscle tone,and even your focus. Lose one and you can die in realistic training scenarios. Lose more than one and you WILL die. No matter how tough you THINK you might be,you ain't tough enough to whip Father Time.
Get a tissue and wipe your nose, then go home, your mamma's callin'. The question is, why does every baby-boomer prefer melo-drama and crying to reality and question concerning the living who have to KNOW why this O-5 died? All one has to say is that a military member died, and every snot nosed ain't-been-there-or-done-that baby-boomer wants to cry a river. What a nation of whimps and sissies we have become. Hell, this nation could NEVER go to war; we couldn't see to shoot through our tears! "Waaah, someone I don't know died and I want to cry about it!"
Travis was making two serious points. The first being a question of why a 41 year old O-5 was drilling such a task, and the other a question of if he died, why? Was it his fault, or gear, or pilot error, etc. God only knows, I wouldn't want to fastrope if there were flaws in the system.
I could just see you as a commander: "What, someone might die doing this sh!t??? Nope, ain't going to do it. My req for tissues hasn't arrived!"
My point was lost on you and others though. The point was not the correctness of the statement, but the fact that you chose to make it at all in this thread.
The thread was originally started to honor and show respect for a man who was killed in service to his country. He deserves that respect, no matter what the circumstances of his death (except less then honorable conditions).
I felt (and still feel) considering the nature of the thread for you to come on and say in essence that it was his fault and offered no condolences, that your comments were off base.
If you had wanted to change the course of the discussion and had started a new thread with that as the topic, I would have had no argument with your statements.
But as I said, and still say, they were not appropriate considering the nature of the discussion.
I just heard today that he did "miss" the rope, and as Squantos said, gravity does not give you a second chance after an error.
Ain't it a bitch?
"Youth is wasted on the young."
Yeah now that I'm knowledgeable as to how 2, I'm too old and broken two do...........:o)
Stay Safe !
May have done him in. Notice the word "may". Travis didn't accuse the man of anything. He said It may have done him in. He also said it was a shame. If this was a gun accident and he blew his brains out I would be asking some irritating questions. That is what I'm interested in and that is what I do. Again, it's a horrible shame but it happens.
And maybe I read the post a bit quickly and reacted with a gut reaction.
But then, after reading some of his other posts, I think my gut reaction was right.
This seems to sum up his philosophy:
Life is tough, then you die. And if your not tough, you die sooner.
My whole point was not so much what was said, but the timing of it. It seemed to reflect a shallow person, who does not have a respect for life.
If a mistake was made by the man who died, it was his mistake and hopefully others will learn from it. But let's at least pause for the funeral and the 21 gun salute before we say the guy may have F'd up.
I'll try. Sir.
(steely)
i.e. "God"
Do NOT try to put words in my mouth. I know what I wrote,and while I mentioned a mythical creature,it wasn't one with the name of "God".
If it wasn't training,what was it? C'mon,fill us in.
LOL! That would definitely be a Turk! FIERCE warriors! Not to swap war stories, but we used them as the cat in cat-n-mouse games. I don't they those men ever slept, and they never quit.
A mythical creature,just like "God".
Ah'm watching you,boy! Ah'm wise to yer disinformation campaign to smear aliens. We ALL know it's the damn Canadians who are behind all this!
Let me repeat myself from an earlier post:
My whole point was not so much what was said, but the timing of it. It seemed to reflect a shallow person, who does not have a respect for life.
If a mistake was made by the man who died, it was his mistake and hopefully others will learn from it. But let's at least pause for the funeral and the 21 gun salute before we say the guy may have F'd up.
Instead of cursing these guys, why don't you thank them for their service and their expertise.
That is exactly what I expected them to do. Thank the guy show some respect for him, publicly. Then if they wish to analyze the situation amongst themselves (or in a seperate thread), so as to benefit others and prevent a reoccurance, fine.
As I said previuosly, it was not what they said, but where it was said. There is a time and place for everything. But the 'euology' is not the place to announce that the guy killed himself (if he did).
Loser.
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