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Who actually received the most votes in Florida's 2000 presidential election?
Tallahassee Democrat ^ | Lance deHaven-Smith

Posted on 09/04/2002 5:43:28 AM PDT by do not delete

Al Gore. State election officials ultimately declared George W. Bush the winner by a margin of 537 votes, but during and after the election dispute, questions remained about the uncounted ballots of 175,010 voters, ballots that had been rejected by error-prone tabulating machines employed in many Florida counties. Confusion and conflict, much of it generated by partisan intrigue, prevented these ballots from being counted during the election controversy. However, in 2001 every uncounted ballot was carefully examined in a scientific study by the University of Chicago, which concluded that when all the votes were counted, more votes had been cast for Gore than for Bush.

(Excerpt) Read more at tallahassee.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; Politics/Elections
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1 posted on 09/04/2002 5:43:28 AM PDT by do not delete
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To: do not delete
IT's OVER!!!!GET A LIFE!!!GET OVER IT!!!!
2 posted on 09/04/2002 5:46:33 AM PDT by peteram
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To: do not delete
do not delete - member since 09-04-02
3 posted on 09/04/2002 5:47:15 AM PDT by peteram
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To: do not delete
Sorry, no instant replay's allowed in politics. Bush was declared the winner, he is the winner, and no after-the-fact finagling of the vote count is going to change that.
4 posted on 09/04/2002 5:47:21 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: do not delete
" Listed below are typical questions about the election, along with my best judgment on the answers."

Who needs facts when you can have the "best judgement" of a liberal "journalist"?
5 posted on 09/04/2002 5:48:07 AM PDT by babyface00
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To: do not delete
Still counting and counting and counting.

Of course, there's no prejudice from the Tallahassee Democrat, is there.
6 posted on 09/04/2002 5:50:07 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: do not delete
Opinion




Posted on Mon, Sep. 02, 2002 story:PUB_DESC
Clearing up the election that won't die

MY VIEW

 

...The key here is that the article is an Opinion piece.

7 posted on 09/04/2002 5:50:35 AM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer
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To: peteram
This is a response in the "Letters to teh Editor" section of today's Tallahassee Democrat.

Recalling the subjectivity of manual recounts

Re: "Clearing up the election that won't die" by Lance deHaven-Smith (My View, Sept. 2).

The malicious allegations and errors of fact by Lance deHaven-Smith do a disservice to his academic credentials, reducing him to a political shill. While a recent University of Chicago study purported to show that Al Gore would have won in a statewide recount, the fact is that the Bush team offered a statewide recount. This was rejected by the Gore team in favor of selective recounts in heavily Democrat counties. Of course, both teams were motivated by the same perception - that in a statewide recount, Bush would be a sure winner, which is probably right. Every study since has shown that every recount wanted by the Gore team would have been won by Bush.

After watching Palm Beach County poll workers holding punch ballots up to the light to see if there is light around a chad, how can a rational professor say that the manual recounts are not subjective?

FRED DOUGHERTY

doughert@nettally.com

8 posted on 09/04/2002 5:50:58 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: do not delete
The surest sign that democrats have no agenda, no plan and no clue for the future is that they pathetically keep rehashing the past...so sad. A couple of them have minds too. But not many.
9 posted on 09/04/2002 5:51:35 AM PDT by Sender
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To: do not delete
I took the liberty to add a few keywords to your post.

...before it's deleted
10 posted on 09/04/2002 5:52:26 AM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer
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To: do not delete
African Americans may have made errors because of the anxiety they are likely to feel at the polls, where in the not-very-distant past they would have routinely faced threats, violence, police harassment, and worse.

Threats? From who? Violence? At what time in the past forty years, if then? Police harassment? Oh, you mean routine license checks more than two miles from the polling place or polling officials with the temerity to actually ask them to for their frickin' ID! "Worse" than this? Ooh, I shudder to think!

This line alone should have given this a mandatory volcanic barf alert!

11 posted on 09/04/2002 5:53:11 AM PDT by winin2000
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To: do not delete
Man, don't you understand??? These ballots were rejected for definite reasons - most of which were due to voter error! They did not count because they could not count, therefore no midwestern liberal university CAN make them count no matter what!!

Dammit! I'm sick and tired of you libs constantly dredging this up. Get over it, will you!!!! Get a friggin' life!

12 posted on 09/04/2002 5:54:50 AM PDT by peteram
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To: do not delete
Okay, assuming what you posted is [cough, cough] true, that would make the Florida recount score:

BUSH - 7, GORE - 1

Thanks for your participation. :-)

13 posted on 09/04/2002 5:55:11 AM PDT by Coop
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To: do not delete
Q: Why were more errors like this made by Democrats than by Republicans?

A: The social characteristics of Florida Democrats. The two groups making the most errors were African Americans and seniors, who are core constituencies of the Florida Democratic Party. Seniors probably made errors because of weak eyesight and other physical limitations caused by aging. African Americans may have made errors because of the anxiety they are likely to feel at the polls, where in the not-very- distant past they would have routinely faced threats, violence, police harassment, and worse.

Pure bull. Stupid is as stupid votes.

14 posted on 09/04/2002 5:56:13 AM PDT by Between the Lines
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To: peteram
Man, don't you understand??? These ballots were rejected for definite reasons - most of which were due to voter error!

By complete coincidence I was reviewing Virginia's voting totals from the 2000 Presidential election just about fifteen minutes ago. We averaged about a 2% vote rejection per precinct, with one precinct as high as 10%. Maybe Gore should challenge the vote here as well! LOL

15 posted on 09/04/2002 5:57:53 AM PDT by Coop
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To: Between the Lines
Q: Why were more errors like this made by Democrats than by Republicans?

You forgot two key points:
-Errors are easy to make when punching ballots in the dark trunk of your car.
-When attempting to ram the stylus through a stack of punch cards, invariably one ends up with "dimpled chads" due to insufficient, er, penetration.

16 posted on 09/04/2002 5:59:40 AM PDT by Coop
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To: Between the Lines
Pure bull. Stupid is as stupid votes.

Well said.
17 posted on 09/04/2002 6:00:21 AM PDT by OldBlondBabe
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To: do not delete
The history of this paper shows that it was bought in 1916 and that the new owner changed it's name to include the word Democrat in it's name. That was to make sure everyone knew where it stood on any issue. From then until 96 they wallowed in a rat cacoon when the pubbies took a fire hose and clean out the rats in in the Fla Assembly. They had to eat dirt again in 2000. What else could we expect from these dim wits?
18 posted on 09/04/2002 6:01:24 AM PDT by jmaroneps37
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
Personally, I hope they don't delete it. This could be our fun thread for the day.
19 posted on 09/04/2002 6:02:44 AM PDT by freedom4ever
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To: do not delete
My BS detector is going off...

BIG TIME.
20 posted on 09/04/2002 6:02:50 AM PDT by hchutch
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To: do not delete
Q: Did Florida officials faithfully execute the state's election laws?

A: No. The New York Times and The Washington Post (a couple of non-bias sources, LOL) discovered evidence that Florida's governor, secretary of state, and speaker of the House, all Republicans with close ties to George W. Bush, used their offices to manipulate the election controversy and secure Bush's victory. During the controversy, they collaborated either directly or through intermediaries with the legal and political advisers of George W. Bush to: (1) put pressure on the state's top law firms not to work for Gore;(funny, Gore had the best attorney's money could buy) (2) bend the rules on absentee ballots to allow improperly marked absentee ballots to be counted;(funny, in the previous question you were just stating how it was unlawful to throw out ballots on a technicallity) (3) block, stall or discredit manual recounts;(no, Gore's lawsuits are what caused the delays in getting a statewide recount) and (4) create fears of a constitutional crisis so that the U.S. Supreme Court would intervene.(that was the FLSC doing)

21 posted on 09/04/2002 6:04:05 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: do not delete
I don't see one post back from this hit-and-run-chickensht poster.
22 posted on 09/04/2002 6:04:31 AM PDT by MrB
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To: do not delete
African Americans may have made errors because of the anxiety they are likely to feel at the polls, where in the not-very-distant past they would have routinely faced threats, violence, police harassment, and worse.

With logic like this, who needs evidence...

23 posted on 09/04/2002 6:05:07 AM PDT by tcostell
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To: do not delete; Non-Sequitur; Oldeconomybuyer; TomGuy; peteram; FreeTally; Sender
CNN.com's In-Depth Special / Florida Ballots Project / Florida recount study: Bush still wins

This is a year 2001 news story about the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A comprehensive study of the 2000 presidential election in Florida suggests that if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed a statewide vote recount to proceed, Republican candidate George W. Bush would still have been elected president.

The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN.

NORC dispatched an army of trained investigators to examine closely every rejected ballot in all 67 Florida counties, including handwritten and punch-card ballots. The NORC team of coders were able to examine about 99 percent of them, but county officials were unable to deliver as many as 2,200 problem ballots to NORC investigators. In addition, the uncertainties of human judgment, combined with some counties' inability to produce the same undervotes and overvotes that they saw last year, create a margin of error that makes the study instructive but not definitive in its findings.

As well as attempting to discern voter intent in ballots that might have been re-examined had the recount gone forward, the study also looked at the possible effect of poor ballot design, voter error and malfunctioning machines. That secondary analysis suggests that more Florida voters may have gone to the polls intending to vote for Democrat Al Gore but failed to cast a valid vote.

In releasing the report, the consortium said it is in no way trying to rewrite history or challenge the official result -- that Bush won Florida by 537 votes. Rather it is simply trying to bring some additional clarity to one of the most confusing chapters in U.S. politics.

Florida Supreme Court recount ruling

On December 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Florida Supreme Court ruling ordering a full statewide hand recount of all undervotes not yet tallied. The U.S. Supreme Court action effectively ratified Florida election officials' determination that Bush won by a few hundred votes out of more than 6 million cast.

Using the NORC data, the media consortium examined what might have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not intervened. The Florida high court had ordered a recount of all undervotes that had not been counted by hand to that point. If that recount had proceeded under the standard that most local election officials said they would have used, the study found that Bush would have emerged with 493 more votes than Gore.

Gore's four-county strategy

Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide.

The news media consortium then tested a number of other hypothetical scenarios.

Use of Palm Beach County standard

Out of Palm Beach County emerged one of the least restrictive standards for determining a valid punch-card ballot. The county elections board determined that a chad hanging by up to two corners was valid and that a dimple or a chad detached in only one corner could also count if there were similar marks in other races on the same ballot. If that standard had been adopted statewide, the study shows a slim, 42-vote margin for Gore.

Inclusion of overvotes

In addition to undervotes, thousands of ballots in the Florida presidential election were invalidated because they had too many marks. This happened, for example, when a voter correctly marked a candidate and also wrote in that candidate's name. The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes.

The butterfly and caterpillar ballots

One of the most controversial aspects of the Florida election was the so-called butterfly ballot used in heavily Democratic Palm Beach County. Many voters came out of the polls saying they were confused by the ballot design.

According to the study, 5,277 voters made a clean punch for Gore and a clean punch for Reform Party nominee Pat Buchanan, candidates whose political philosophies are poles apart. An additional 1,650 voters made clean punches for Bush and Buchanan. If many of the Buchanan votes were in error brought on by a badly designed ballot, a CNN analysis found that Gore could have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

Eighteen other counties used another confusing ballot design known as the "caterpillar" or "broken" ballot, where six or seven presidential candidates are listed in one column and the names of the remaining minor party candidates appeared at the top of a second one. According to the study, more than 15,000 people who voted for either Gore or Bush also selected one candidate in the second column, apparently thinking the second column represented a new race.

Had many of these voters not marked a minor candidate in the second column, Gore would have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

However, the double votes on both butterfly and caterpillar ballots were clearly invalid under any interpretation of the law.

Limits of the study

The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago study was commissioned by eight media companies -- The Associated Press, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, the St. Petersburg Times, The Palm Beach Post, The Washington Post and the Tribune Co., which includes the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, the Orlando Sentinel and Baltimore Sun, as well as other papers.

NORC used experienced staff researchers to supervise and train a larger pool of investigators, who then fanned out across Florida and personally examined 175,010 ballots provided by local election officials. The investigators recorded exactly what they saw on each ballot but made no attempt to determine whether the vote should have been counted.

From there, the media consortium took over, analyzing the raw data produced by NORC and drawing conclusions for various hypothetical scenarios.

As with any large-scale study, the NORC data is subject to some important limitations.

NORC reported serious problems with record keeping at many local election offices. NORC relied on these offices to produce the rejected ballots, but county officials were unable to deliver as many as 2,200 problem ballots to NORC investigators.

Although trained to produce accurate, impartial reports, the NORC investigators are human and prone to human judgment and error. In particular, NORC discovered that male investigators were more likely to record marks on ballots than women. NORC also found a slight but statistically significant relationship between candidate marks and the investigators' party affiliation.

Most importantly, there is no guarantee that the judgments of the NORC investigators would have matched those of local election boards had the recount been permitted to proceed under any scenario.


24 posted on 09/04/2002 6:05:53 AM PDT by First_Salute
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To: do not delete
AL !!! Is that you ???
25 posted on 09/04/2002 6:06:00 AM PDT by coder2
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To: do not delete

26 posted on 09/04/2002 6:06:38 AM PDT by KS Flyover
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To: do not delete
Lance deHaven-Smith is a professor of public administration and policy at Florida State University. Contact him at ldsmith@garnet.fsu.edu.

YES, do contact him there.

27 posted on 09/04/2002 6:09:11 AM PDT by Petronski
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To: do not delete
questions remained about the uncounted ballots of 175,010 voters ...

This article is an "opinion" -- not fact. All ballots were counted in the most objective way -- by machine -- not once but twice. The manual recount results might have been different had Sore/Loserman not tried to steal the election by trying to handpick only four democRAT counties to recount.

28 posted on 09/04/2002 6:12:04 AM PDT by JoeGar
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To: coder2
AL !!! Is that you ???


29 posted on 09/04/2002 6:15:07 AM PDT by lowbridge
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To: lowbridge
ROFL !!
30 posted on 09/04/2002 6:17:48 AM PDT by coder2
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To: First_Salute
NORC also found a slight but statistically significant relationship between candidate marks and the investigators' party affiliation.

File that one under "Duh!" It's all you need to know about why the manual recounts were flawed from the get-go.

31 posted on 09/04/2002 6:19:37 AM PDT by Brandon
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To: Petronski; All
I don't know why anyone is replying to this sore loser. He's obviously a disrupter and troll from DU
32 posted on 09/04/2002 6:20:48 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin
He's been banned.
33 posted on 09/04/2002 6:23:07 AM PDT by hchutch
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To: TomGuy
Of course had Gore been able to win his own home state where his senatorial service to home state voters left them chosing a better candidate, Floriduh would have far fewer editorial hacks earning a check.

This opinion stufff is comical. In our state here in Wisconsin, every opinion piece defends big government, big taxes, big spending, and threatens the public with layer upon layer of disasterous results of any spending cap or budget cut. The funny thing is, the only people writing these pieces are government employees, university chancellors, and pig trough management civil service employees. Every day the papers are filled with them.

34 posted on 09/04/2002 6:24:16 AM PDT by blackdog
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To: peteram
I would say wrt the election results:

"In their opinion, Gore won the election."

Who knows how many times the ballots had been handled and how many chads had "dropped" out. Only the Devil.

35 posted on 09/04/2002 6:24:23 AM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
LOL Didnt realize there were so many post under "whiners"
36 posted on 09/04/2002 6:28:14 AM PDT by boxerblues
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To: MrB
Remember the 3 D's of the dems. While your attention is on this post, items to which constructive energy can be applied may be flying under the radar. Maybe there's a motive to the hit and run.
37 posted on 09/04/2002 6:29:00 AM PDT by windchime
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To: do not delete
The social characteristics of Florida Democrats. The two groups making the most errors were African Americans and seniors, who are core constituencies of the Florida Democratic Party. Seniors probably made errors because of weak eyesight and other physical limitations caused by aging. African Americans may have made errors because of the anxiety they are likely to feel at the polls, where in the not-very-distant past they would have routinely faced threats, violence, police harassment, and worse.

Most people make errors when they suffer from guilt the rest is BS.

38 posted on 09/04/2002 6:30:40 AM PDT by RGSpincich
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: do not delete
You mean the ballots where not counted where the nail didn't go all the way through the stack? Awwwwwww, sniff, sniff...pppfffuuuut.
40 posted on 09/04/2002 6:34:30 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
And I must point out again, the most likely cause of the famed "dimpled chad" is from the mechanics of fraud. Ain't it puzzling why the only dimpled chads produced were Gore ballots? They almost got nailed. The upside to this is that they killed the goose that layed the golden chad of doubt. They will have to find a new way to commit fraud as the old way became too visible on the radar screen.
41 posted on 09/04/2002 6:34:42 AM PDT by blackdog
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To: do not delete
Q: "Why were more errors like this made by Democrats than by Republicans?"

True story: When I was in Palm Beach last year I entered an apartment complex unfamiliar to me and stepped onto the elevator. A little old lady standing next to the panel asked me what floor I wanted and I said "26". There was no "26" button so she pressed "20" and "6" and said to me "that ought to do it"

I wonder how she voted.

42 posted on 09/04/2002 6:34:51 AM PDT by Genaro
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To: do not delete
Where did you check this story out from? The "Hey We Made This Up" library?

The Nazis found that in a vacuum if you say something enough times people will eventually start to believe it. But there is no such vacuum here in America because of the free flow if information. The only people that believe this Dem/liberal/socialist spittle about Gore winning are the ones that have a vacuum between their heads.

43 posted on 09/04/2002 6:35:40 AM PDT by isthisnickcool
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To: do not delete
Let's see it's coming up to 2 years since the election. HAS THE LEFT COME UP WITH ANYTHING OF SUBSTANCE SINCE THEN?

GET A LIFE


44 posted on 09/04/2002 6:37:54 AM PDT by YankeeReb
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To: isthisnickcool
between the ears....

Need caffeine.

45 posted on 09/04/2002 6:37:59 AM PDT by isthisnickcool
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To: winin2000
African Americans may have made errors because of the anxiety they are likely to feel at the polls, where in the not-very-distant past they would have routinely faced threats, violence, police harassment, and worse.

Let's see I was asked to produce ID at my polling place before I could step into the booth {SHUDDER} ... I think my vote for Bush should be counted twice just because of the stress factor.

46 posted on 09/04/2002 6:40:18 AM PDT by YankeeReb
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To: do not delete
My favorite line from the FL election debacle:

Democratic Party = "CONFEDERACY OF GANGSTERS".

True then. True now.

47 posted on 09/04/2002 6:41:09 AM PDT by Tricorn
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To: windchime
Oh so true.....They most likely plan the following...."Throw a juicy, inflamatory, DNC written word bomb into the Free Republic website and watch them masterbate with the keyboard for hours on end. Meanwhile we can go on unseen with our nastiness while Freepers stroke away."
48 posted on 09/04/2002 6:42:41 AM PDT by blackdog
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To: Genaro
True story: When I was in Palm Beach last year I entered an apartment complex unfamiliar to me and stepped onto the elevator. A little old lady standing next to the panel asked me what floor I wanted and I said "26". There was no "26" button so she pressed "20" and "6" and said to me "that ought to do it"
Must have been her meds. Of course, she didn't know you were a secret agent going to your secret lair (since you told her you were going to the 26th floor and there was no 26th floor button. Oh, wait - you meant the roof, right?
49 posted on 09/04/2002 6:43:22 AM PDT by dark_lord
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To: do not delete
Who actually received the most votes in Florida's 2000 presidential election?

I did. But by some horrible mistake my name wasn't on the ballots. I blame Bush, the Illuminati and the Skull and Crossbones for this.

50 posted on 09/04/2002 6:46:21 AM PDT by Cachelot
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