Saving Islam from bin Laden [Christopher Hitchens]

The Age (Melbourne) ^ | September 5 2002 | Christopher Hitchens

[muleboy]

I think there are some interesting, and possibly very relevant, parallels between the excesses of Christianity during the Middle Ages and Renaissance and current radical Islamism.

Both are reactions to tremendous social, economic, and technological change. Christianity's excesses led to the birth of (classic)liberal democracy, unprecedented economic freedom, and a rare high level of cultural tolerance. Though it took the rise of the nation-state and geography to bring it about.

Arab muslims have been subjected to several centuries worth of social, economic, and technological change within the space of a few generations. Clearly they are having great difficulty reconciling their antiquated tenets of faith with modernity. Perhaps it will require a "super-state" to "help" them through the transition?

One could get the distinct impression from current events that history is once again repeating itself.

[demnomo]

Well, something's got to give, that's for sure. I'm still not convinced that the past evils that were perpetrated in the name of Christianity, contrary to Christ's teachings, are similar to what is happening in Islam today.

The teachings and accepted traditions of the Prophet Mohammad encourage, rather than condemn barbarity and violence towards non-conformist Muslims and especially the hated Infidels. There is nothing contrary to Mohammad's exhortations (except for a few pretty-sounding surahs at the beginning of the Koran regarding killing innocents, tolerating Jews and Christians or "People of the Book" which Mohammad finally rejected in the end when his quest to conquer and convert them failed) that is not being practiced literally by Osama and his millions of followers, cheerleaders and apologists today.

One can argue the interpretations and translations of Islam on and on. Unless I soon see a majority of Muslims rise up and quell the coming bloodbath, I have little optimism that an Islamic "Reformation" will be a peaceful transition, not harm any innocents or be resolved through diplomatic means...

[aculeus]

Hitchens' religion is socialism.

Not "is", "was". The last time I saw him on CSPAN the interviewer asked him "Do you still consider yourself a socialist". His answer was "No" ... but he still spouts anti-business rhetoric.

[Brian Allen]

<< It makes one wonder what it will take for Chris to see the value of ethical-capitalism? >>
SOBRIETY!

[dennisw]

ping

[muleboy]

SOBRIETY ?

Yes, but only in moderation. Nothing is more stultifying to an alcoholic british socialist than complete abstinence. If he just cuts down to a half-dozen gin and tonics per day, what wonders could he write?

[Neophyte]

endless and futile utopian war to "reform" Islam

To reform Islam is as possible as it was to reform Nazism. Although Michael Jackson prooves that one can even become a former Negro, the result is too ugly to serve as a role model.

[Neophyte]

Nothing is more stultifying to an alcoholic british socialist than complete abstinence.

ROFLMAO!!! This is my "Quote of the day" and will stay on my PC's Desktop until I'm fascinated by somebody's equally brilliant aphorism.

[muleboy]

Many thanks. I'm good for one every now and then.

Being Irish, I reacted strongly to the word "sobriety" in large print.

[Light Speed]

I guess the concept of Reform is being accepted by the Islamics..recently the smiling talking heads from Saudi Arabia we see on the T.V. of late...looks like they are ready to impliment some kind of concessionary thingy..maybe tone down all those big ralies of Hezbullah in Beruit...100,000...tone it down to 60,000 next time..publish the numbers for the media to stroke themselves.
More pictures of Western culture in Iran...happy handshakes with Karzi in Kabul..yup..the Saudi's will make changes..were sure to see them endlessly now...maybe even displace some evening Brave baseball telecasts.
Social reform....[Surface...social reform]...
Meanwhile...
North Korean technitions will still be moving sections of scud C and D's into postion in Syria's 23 deep underground missile complexes....he might look over his shoulder to see if the warning light is flashing near the area where the vx nerve agents are being processed and placed into warheads.
Yup...its something right out of a James Bond movie..and its going on as we speak..as the talking Saudi heads speak..and Kofi Annan..and The Euro weennies.

Bin Laden..Saddam,..just players in the game...like chess..you lose players.
Saudi Prince money in Lebanon...
Al Qeda in South Lebanon.
Al Qeda strolling the streets of Damascus Syria.
Hezbullah,Islamic Jihad...PLO..and lots of other letter abreviations..all strolling around Damascus..or south Lebanon...its become quite the social event.

U.S. plopped sat photos of Syria resupplying Saddam with ex Soviet bloc nation weapons ,parts and spares on Damascuses desk..no trembling happening here...
Syrias rolling in the hardware as we speak..and letting Saddam drive 150,000 barrels of oil into Syria daily too.[Violating U.N. sanctions..but who really cares?]
Obviously Syria is not scared of the U.S. in the least..or they would'nt be doing this shit right out in the open.
Iranian frequent flyer miles to Syria...Chinese fibre optical technology finding its way into Iraq via Syria..
North Korean technitions sight seeing and assembling missiles in Syria...
Saudi Princes with their money repairing Lebanese electrical stations clobbered by Israel to the tune of millions..and then a tour around Lebanon to work on other deals
All this going on..while we watch Afganistan or Pakistan/India.
One has to wonder if Saudi princes...Iranian Clerics and others are not falling out of their chairs with laughter with all of this .
For me at least....I know why the Saudi talking heads are smiling!

[Bob J]

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[kulot]

Indeed there are parallels between the histories of followers of Christ and followers of Muhammad.

There is a history of fanaticism among both.

The difficulty many people find is being able to separate the original teachings of Christ and Muhammad relative to their environment and the behavior of some of their followers years and centuries after.

[Austin Willard Wright]

Very good point. I rather like Hitchens but he is at his best when he writes in the style of a jaded Menckenite iconoclast rather than as a clean-shaven, white-collared crusader for "reform."

[steve-b]

The article still smacks a little of moral-relativity, especially when Hitchen's compares Christianity to present-day Islam. If Hitchens really studied the world's religions, he would see that most religions (especially modern Christianity) allow its members the freedom to choose and peacefully tolerate other sects so long as its adherents are given the same freedoms.

Reread the article, this time without skipping over parts of it. Hitchens was, quite accurately, comparing the state of Islam today with that of Christianity in the late-medieval and early-modern periods.

[muleboy]

Absolutely.

Rumpled, drunk, and pissed off is when Hitchens is at his best.

[Valin]

I think there are some interesting, and possibly very relevant, parallels between the excesses of Christianity during the Middle Ages and Renaissance and current radical Islamism.

The difference is Christianity grew out of it, Islam for the most part remains mired in the past.

[demnomo]

Hitchens was, quite accurately, comparing the state of Islam today with that of Christianity in the late-medieval and early-modern periods.

After rereading, I think that Hitchens may be referring to the cultural and interpretational upheavals of Christianity before and shortly after the Reformation. On those points, I would agree with you and Hitchens.

I still believe that there is a great deal of doctrinal differences between the teachings of Christ from the New Testament's first Four Gospels and the teachings of Mohammad towards the end of the Koran and the entire Hadith. So much so, that I don't see an Islamic Reformation (unless a goodly portion of Mohammad's revelations are tossed out) changing the "jihadist" mindset of the Muslim World.

Christ did not endorse violence or forced conversion towards non-believers by His followers. (Although self-defense might be necessary in certain situations.) Nor did Christ tell His Apostles to teach that it was OK by God to deceive, loot from, cheat, extort, rape, enslave or murder anyone who didn't agree with their views. Yes, some of those fore-mentioned acts were committed by so-called Christians during the Medieval Ages, the Inquisition and even after the Reformation. Try as the so-called Christians might, those evil acts had no solid basis for interpretation in the actual tenants set forth by Christ according to the Biblical Scriptures of the New Testament.

On the other hand, the Islamic Prophet Mohammad commands Muslims to do the above-mentioned acts because allah has told Mohammad personally that the acts are OK to do, especially when carried out against the infidels. Unlike the New Testament within the Bible, there is a solid basis within the Koran and Hadith that encourages Muslims to do violent, cruel and hurtful things against human beings, especially those persons who don't agree with their views.

Hey, I'm all for an Islamic Reformation, with the more "moderate" Muslims in the majority. Let's hope that a more "moderate" Islam means that I don't have to spend the rest of my life knowing that there are lots of Muslims out there whose beliefs allow them to harm me, my family, friends and fellow human-beings because we won't kow-tow or convert to their religion.

Again, I'm not very hopeful that an Islamic Reformation will bring about peace between Islam and the rest of the world (which is called "The House of War" by devout Muslims) since I have read the Koran, Hadith and studied Islamic culture. Islam allows Muslims to DECEIVE infidels like me into thinking that Islam is "the religion of peace" until the time comes when the unwary infidels can be ambushed by Muslims into accepting Sharia or else! If the Islamic Reformation happens, I sure hope that the so-called "moderate" Muslims who win know the Western meaning of "moderation." It would be a crying shame if the term "moderation" suffered somehow in the translation...

[ZULU]

"Do the religious authorities propose to inflict this code only on members of their own congregation, who share the supposed values and taboos? No they do not. They wish to have it imposed also on Christians and unbelievers."


Standard Operating Procedure in the looney cult world of fundamentalist Islam.

It totally amazes me that the same people who were so horrified by the Serbian persecution of the Islamic Albanians, apartheid in South Africa, the military government in Haiti, etc., etc. have demostrated such a selective degree of morality that they totally ignore the continuing brutality, viciousness, violence, and inhumanity of the Islamic world cult which treats its women like chattels, seeks to forcibly impose itself on non-Muslims, imposes Medieval forms of justice on religious dissenters, practises slavery and forced prostitution, coddles and condones and supports world terrorism, and seeks to expand the mindless violence of Islamic "paradises" like Afgahnistan, the Sudan and Somalia to the western world and other non-Islamic area.

Truly amazing - selective morality.

[swarthyguy]

Also add fear of the islamists and more than a sneaking admiration for the qualities islam engenders.

A total submission to an all encompassing ideology.

Leftists admire that; witness the conversion of Yvonne Ridley, held captive by the Taliban after being caught sneaking into the country. She proudly credits her imprisonment in Afghanistan as one of the key forces in persuading her to convert.