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New gas engines rated nearly pollution-free Sentra, Accord use a low-sulfur fuel
USA Today ^ | Sept 6,2002 | James R. Healey

Posted on 09/07/2002 9:10:21 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach

Edited on 04/13/2004 1:39:53 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Gasoline engines now in production can be nearly pollution-free, a California university engineering laboratory reports after three years of study.

The finding suggests Americans can enjoy much cleaner air without the high price of electric cars.

''You won't get to zero (emissions), but you will get pretty close,'' says Joseph Norbeck, director of the facility that performed the challenging tests at the University of California-Riverside.


(Excerpt) Read more at usatoday.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; Technical; US: California
KEYWORDS: california; davis; environment; techindex
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1 posted on 09/07/2002 9:10:21 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: *tech_index; Mathlete; Apple Pan Dowdy; grundle; beckett; billorites; One More Time; ...
correction: I believe the correct date is Sept 5, 2002.

OFFICIAL BUMP(TOPIC)LIST

2 posted on 09/07/2002 9:13:50 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Besides spending most of my time fighting the terrorist bastards with SSAF, I also work with Green Car Group that put on the event at UC Riverside. These vehicles are great. What comes out of the tailpipe in the Sentra and Accord is cleaner than the ambient air. I hope the United States takes the lead in fuel cells and that must go forward, but this technology for ICEs is wonderful. A big salute to ChevronTexaco for their advances.
3 posted on 09/07/2002 9:17:56 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: doug from upland
You mean you are one of those "NASTY enviromentalists?"

I am shocked! /LOL!!

4 posted on 09/07/2002 9:22:51 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Environmental Wackos will find some other reason to ban cars
5 posted on 09/07/2002 9:22:55 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: doug from upland
Have you got some links for Green Car Group and anything else on the technology that Nissan and Honda have developed?
6 posted on 09/07/2002 9:25:26 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: doug from upland
What is the performance of these engines like when compared to a "regular" engine. Are there trade-offs?
7 posted on 09/07/2002 9:28:55 AM PDT by stop_fascism
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To: doug from upland
"These vehicles are great. What comes out of the tailpipe in the Sentra and Accord is cleaner than the ambient air."

This is wonderful news. But it won't have any lasting impact on the enviro-whackos.

After all, they want more than "clean air". They will still want our cars. Because what they are really after is our freedom!

8 posted on 09/07/2002 9:29:57 AM PDT by okie01
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
How problematic is this, though? Don't different grades of oil have different sulfur contents? Do you need a special kind of oil? How much more will it cost to refine? Will existing refineries will able to do this, or will they have to retool their refineries? This sounds great, but the devil is in the details.
9 posted on 09/07/2002 9:33:52 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
That shrieking noise you hear is EcoFreaks losing their favorite demon...
10 posted on 09/07/2002 9:34:39 AM PDT by pabianice
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To: okie01
Because what they are really after is our freedom!

Yep. It's not about the environment. It's about CONTROL.

11 posted on 09/07/2002 9:38:01 AM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
It is impossible to be as right wing as I am and be an envirowhacko. It seems clear to me that we do have an obligation to our children to make this a better place. That doesn't mean we need to stifle business. The U.S. must stay on the cutting edge in technology. I want the fuel cell technology here, and we should be the leader.
12 posted on 09/07/2002 9:46:33 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: stop_fascism
I noticed no performance difference.
13 posted on 09/07/2002 9:47:45 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: mewzilla
From the article we have this:

For now, the promising technology is limited to California because to work right, the engines require low-sulfur gasoline that is widely available only there.

Crude oil comes in many different qualities.

Oil from Venezula is very high in Sulfur.

14 posted on 09/07/2002 9:49:36 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
That's what I wondered. So won't oil like that cost more to refine? And then won't the cost of oil with a lower sulfur content go up? Is the latter as available as oil with a high(er) sulfur content? And the article never said if lowering the sulfur content will cost a lot more. And if our refineries can do that, and if we have enough refinery capacity to do it a lot.
15 posted on 09/07/2002 9:52:37 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
www.greencars.com

I write much of the printed industry newsletter that goes out every month.

Here's a UCR press release with some good info on the Honda -- CLICK.

16 posted on 09/07/2002 9:55:28 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: doug from upland
I also work with Green Car Group that put on the event at UC Riverside.

So maybe you can answer my questions about this. Is low-sulfur gasoline more expensive to make? What kind of re-tooling will be need for refineries to produce low sulfur gasoline? Or does it need to come from certain places like low sulfur coal?

Does this come at the cost of engine power? Would it work with say an eight cylinder as well as four? Can we just replace the engine or certain parts of the engine to have this advantage or do you have to buy a new car? What kind of fuel economy can you get?

This just sounds too good to be true.

a.cricket

17 posted on 09/07/2002 9:55:41 AM PDT by another cricket
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To: doug from upland
While this car may not produce any emissions, it will still produce a profit for the manufacturer.

THAT will make it unacceptable to the Greens.

Destruction of capitalism is the goal.

Eviromentalism is only the tool.

18 posted on 09/07/2002 10:02:22 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle
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To: doug from upland
Good luck on getting the whackos to allow new, or even retooled refineries.
19 posted on 09/07/2002 10:03:13 AM PDT by basil
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To: uncbob
Environmental Wackos will find some other reason to ban cars

I think they already have. I have to assume that this vehicle still emits carbon dioxide, which the California Legislature, in its infinite wisdom, has decided is a greenhouse gas that is unacceptable.

I doubt this car meets the standards which they have set for new cars in 2009, if I recall correctly.

20 posted on 09/07/2002 10:06:02 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: doug from upland
"What comes out of the tailpipe in the Sentra and Accord is cleaner than the ambient air."

Surely you jest, Sir Douglas.

Your statement would imply that these "great" engines only burn the "pollutants" in the air leaving it cleaner than it was.

The entire issue depends on just what is defined as "emissions" and "pollution."

The state of calipooia just upped the ante by defining CO2 as "pollution." That means any engine using a carbonaceous fuel pollutes by definition.

There's no way that tailpipe exhause will EVER be "cleaner than the ambient air."

21 posted on 09/07/2002 10:09:09 AM PDT by nightdriver
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To: Dog Gone
I doubt this car meets the standards which they have set for new cars in 2009, if I recall correctly.

I hope it doesn't, because if it does, they will have to set them tighter, so it won't meet the standards.

22 posted on 09/07/2002 10:09:12 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle
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To: Balding_Eagle
These developments will impress any reasonable person interested in air quality. The whackos will be outed for who they are, and I believe they will ultimately have less power. As we really make an effort to improve air quality through technology, business will make a profit, the air will be cleaner, technology jobs will be created, and the whackos will be trivialized ------ everyone wins, except the nuts.
23 posted on 09/07/2002 10:12:52 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: another cricket
Some of the answers I don't have, but I will be glad to ask some of the ChevronTexaco people I met at the event when I have some time.
24 posted on 09/07/2002 10:14:35 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Nearly pollution free won't be good enough for those greenie weenies.
25 posted on 09/07/2002 10:25:00 AM PDT by Piquaboy
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To: doug from upland
Thank you. I look forward to learning a little or even a lot more about this.

a.cricket

26 posted on 09/07/2002 10:30:27 AM PDT by another cricket
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To: doug from upland; mewzilla; another cricket
I dug this note up:

Topic: Price of Gasoline - Sulfur

Topic: Price of Gasoline - Sulfur

Sulfur and GA$ CO$T

Chemical Marketing Reporter
5/10/99

Chemical Market Reporter - 10-May-99

Petroleum Industry Attacks Tougher Sulfur Guidelines Proposed by EPA

By Glenn Hess

The Clinton Administration's new clean air plan, which includes a dramatic reduction in the sulfur content of gasoline, is facing strong opposition from petroleum refiners and their allies in Congress.

An Environmental Protection Agency proposed rule, announced on May 1 by President Clinton, would require refiners to lower gasoline sulfur levels from the current national average of 340 parts per million to only 30 ppm by 2006, with about 17 small refineries given until 2008. The proposal would apply to all states except California, which already has a gasoline sulfur standard of 30 ppm.

"Because sulfur clogs and impairs anti-pollution devices, we're proposing to cut the sulfur content of gasoline by about 90 percent," the President remarked in his weekly radio address.

Sulfur, a naturally occurring component in crude oil, is being targeted because it can hinder a vehicle's catalytic converter, leading to greater tailpipe emissions of nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons.

EPA, which expects to issue a final rule by the end of the year, rejected arguments by the oil industry that the sulfur reductions would be overly expensive and force the closing of some refineries.

The average price of gasoline would increase by 1 or 2 cents per gallon, and new emissions technology on cars and light-duty trucks would add $100 to $200 to the price of a vehicle, according to EPA administrator Carol Browner.

"It's not an awful lot to pay for cleaner air," Ms. Browner says, noting that the agency expects the tougher requirements to cost about $4.4 billion.

But the oil industry contends that the sulfur-reduction requirement alone, using existing technology, could raise the cost of making gasoline by more than $7 billion per year, equivalent to about 5 to 6 cents per gallon.

"The case for a national approach has yet to be made," warns William O'Keefe, vice-president of the American Petroleum Institute (API). "An approach that does not recognize regional differences in air quality means that consumers will pay more than necessary, and refiners will be hard pressed to make the reductions on schedule." He adds that the industry will make "a strong case for modification" before EPA's proposal becomes final.

In a joint statement, API and the National Petrochemical Refiners Association (NPRA) say EPA should "build on clean air accomplishments rather than push forward its unnecessarily costly proposal to rapidly reduce nationwide gasoline sulfur levels by 90 percent. The agency should not ignore the nation's different air quality needs and the costs that will be imposed on investors and consumers."

An alternative sulfur reduction plan being touted by the industry would allow higher sulfur concentrations in gasoline sold in the western half of the US, excluding California, than in the East.

Under the industry's plan, gasoline with an average sulfur content of 150 ppm would be sold in all states east of the Mississippi River plus Missouri, Louisiana and the eastern third of Texas. Elsewhere, except for California, gasoline would have an average sulfur level of 300 ppm. The plan would take effect in 2004, with a further reduction to 30 ppm in 2010.

Such an approach would cut nationwide sulfur levels nearly in half, with most of the reduction in the East, which has most of the country's ozone air quality problems, according to API and NPRA. The sulfur cuts would occur in 2004, the same year as EPA's plan, but would account for the fact that less sulfur reduction is needed in the West, where air quality generally meets federal standards.

California would continue to use the reformulated, low-sulfur gasoline that it already requires, and after 2000, retailers in some metropolitan regions outside California would sell reformulated gasoline that is expected to have an average sulfur level of 150 ppm.

"Air quality problems are vastly different across the nation. Yet under EPA's plan, the citizens of Boise, Idaho, will pay as much or more to clean their air as will the citizens in the Bronx, N.Y.," says Bob Slaughter, general council and director of public policy for NPRA.

"This rulemaking has not demonstrated that all regions of the country need the same level of sulfur reductions. The best technology to enable EPA's plan is not yet generally available commercially. As a result, the costs of achieving EPA's plan are too high."

The industry's plan would also require additional sulfur reductions if they are needed--to the 90 percent level of the EPA proposal--but at a later date, allowing for the implementation of new, more cost-effective refinery technology. API and NPRA caution that EPA's rapid schedule could prevent refiners from adopting sulfur reduction technologies that are commercially unproven but potentially more cost-effective. Refiners estimate that under their plan, the capital investment costs for lowering gasoline sulfur levels would be roughly $3 billion, about 2 cents per gallon.

Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.), chairman of the Senate clean air subcommittee, says he has already begun drafting legislation to address what he considers the negative economic impacts of the proposed EPA regulation.

"In their rush to issue new environmental regulations, I fear the Administration is short-changing important considerations which need to be addressed in the proposed sulfur rule," says Sen. Inhofe. "The Administration has also consistently failed to provide the Senate with important analysis and justifications for this proposal."

He notes that the Clean Air Act requires EPA standards to be cost-effective. "My subcommittee will ensure that this is the case," he says.

27 posted on 09/07/2002 10:49:03 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
You mean you are one of those "NASTY enviromentalists?"

He is a REAL environmentalist. I have long contended that the ONLY people capable of solving environmental problems are the scientists and engineers, NOT the lawyers and activists.

28 posted on 09/07/2002 11:17:05 AM PDT by reg45
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To: reg45; doug from upland
Agreed!

I was trying to be witty!

29 posted on 09/07/2002 11:23:22 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks for finding the info.
30 posted on 09/07/2002 11:40:51 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: nightdriver
Next time I see Dr. Norbeck I'll pass on from you that you think he's full of it. Who is he but a mere engineer who has spent several years working on this project.
31 posted on 09/07/2002 11:42:19 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: basil
re: Good luck on getting the whackos to allow new, or even retooled refineries.

======

This event was a seminal event. With this work done by Honda and ChevronTexaco, there is great ammunition to put a gag in the mouths of the whackos. Make no mistake that fuel cells are coming, but with engines this clean, the internal combustion is not dead yet.

32 posted on 09/07/2002 11:46:08 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: doug from upland
Is this the engine and drivetrain ?

VTEC-E gasoline engine

33 posted on 09/07/2002 11:58:22 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Something from Nissan:

Nissan's new 1.8-litre engine

.........................

Nissan say the Primera's success is down to a swirl control valve in the engine's inlet tract. This was a feature previously reserved for diesel-engined vehicles. The new 1.8-litre engine was among the first petrol engines to adopt the system. The valve is closed during warm-up and at low engine speeds, redirecting the air flowing through the inlet ports. The re-routed airway increases tumble swirl in the combustion chamber to enhance combustion for improved emissions and reduced fuel consumption (oh no please don't compare this to a diesel)

34 posted on 09/07/2002 12:02:52 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: All
The re-routed airway increases tumble swirl in the combustion chamber to enhance combustion for improved emissions and reduced fuel consumption (oh no please don't compare this to a diesel)

That should scale up to some degree! need bigger engines or more cylinders!

35 posted on 09/07/2002 12:05:45 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
FROM THE PRESS KIT:

2003 Honda Accord

4-cylinder, 2.4-liter internal combustion engine
160-hp, 24/33 mpg city/highway (automatic transmission)
CA SULEV/"Zero Evaporativge Emission" fuel system

The first high-volume, near-zero emission vehicle on sale in the U.S.

36 posted on 09/07/2002 12:09:56 PM PDT by doug from upland
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To: doug from upland
160 hp. that is a decent commuting type vehicle!
37 posted on 09/07/2002 12:13:08 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
If either the car or the fuel costs more, then I'll wait for the electric car.
38 posted on 09/07/2002 12:14:30 PM PDT by Consort
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To: Jimer
The only "electric" cars you will get is a fuel cell vehicle. Electric vehicles with batteries and an electric motor are not going to happen. The Ranger and RAV4 are exceptions. We are going to see substantial increases in hybrids, increases in the kinds of SULEV vehicles like Honda has developed, and then into fuel cells.
39 posted on 09/07/2002 12:37:19 PM PDT by doug from upland
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To: another cricket; doug from upland
The news report we saw the other night on some Calif. television station, stated that the low-sulfur gasoline was already REQUIRED to be offered nation-wide by, I think they said, 2004.

There is expected to be, initially, a higher cost per gallon, which does not surprise me.

I am VERY interested in learning how much per vehicle this technology will add to the price per car.
40 posted on 09/07/2002 12:42:27 PM PDT by justshe
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To: justshe
This article might be of interest -- CLICK. The Accord will come with a V-6 or the SULEV 4-cylinder. The 4-cylinder is standard and it looks like it hasn't added to the cost of the vehicle.
41 posted on 09/07/2002 1:07:14 PM PDT by doug from upland
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks for the info. FWIW, I wouldn't mind paying an extra 5 or 6 cents/gal. for cleaner air.
42 posted on 09/07/2002 1:11:34 PM PDT by mewzilla
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To: doug from upland
Thanks, doug!
43 posted on 09/07/2002 1:41:04 PM PDT by justshe
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"You have to be practical."

Five words guaranteed to vapor-lock an environmentalist's brain.

44 posted on 09/07/2002 1:58:33 PM PDT by Redcloak
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To: uncbob
Environmental Wackos will find some other reason to ban cars

Correction:
The Environmental Wackos will find a way to ban any car you want.
And will confiscate any car you like...so they will be the only ones to drive such cars.
45 posted on 09/07/2002 2:13:53 PM PDT by VOA
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To: okie01
After all, they want more than "clean air". They will still want our cars. Because what
they are really after is our freedom!


If Gore and any of the other envirowackos accidentally spoke the truth, this might slip out:

"First we'll take away their guns.
That'll make it easier to take away their cars."
46 posted on 09/07/2002 2:16:21 PM PDT by VOA
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Good news. It is great when engineering ability trumps the naysayers who promised it couldn't be done.
47 posted on 09/07/2002 3:32:35 PM PDT by Looking for Diogenes
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To: Balding_Eagle
While this car may not produce any emissions, it will still produce a profit for the manufacturer. THAT will make it unacceptable to the Greens. Destruction of capitalism is the goal. Eviromentalism is only the tool.

Bravo, but you didn't take your logic far enough.

They hate life itself. [Your life, not theirs]

48 posted on 09/07/2002 3:40:17 PM PDT by snopercod
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
RE: swirl valve in inlet tract.

They are a little late on this one. Years ago, when Bill Elliot was terrorizing the NASCAR circuit, part of his advantage involved swirl technology involving parts of the entire inlet system. NASCAR eventually outlawed much of the technology from being used, due to the expense of the R&D required by the other teams to catch up.

Elliot (and the other FORD teams that were privey to the idea) was getting more power and significantly greater fuel mileage than his competitors. IIRC his relative, Ernie Elliot was the guy resonsible for this discovery, at least as it related to gasoline engines.

49 posted on 09/07/2002 7:08:22 PM PDT by wcbtinman
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To: wcbtinman
NASCAR used to be a "proving ground" for engine/chassis technology, now it is just a choreographed exercise in high-speed "bumper-cars."
50 posted on 09/07/2002 7:34:41 PM PDT by Old Professer
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