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Testimony of parent whose son committed suicide [1 of 4] after attending the Ark. Gov.'s School
American Family Association of Arkansas ^ | 1992 | Shelvie Cole

Posted on 09/25/2002 11:51:24 AM PDT by Aquinasfan

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To: Let's Roll
Child, child, people are the way they act, not the way they intend or think. But of course once you've been programmed to see everything as relative and forbidden to judge anything or anyone etc. People like the Clintons require that mindset in their followers - otherwise they would have been busted years ago.

How many times have you heard Rush say, "liberals judge people by their beliefs, not by what they do"? I didn't appreciate how right he was. To be "virtuous" in their world you have to hold the correct PC dogmas. Then it's OK to get high and screw around. No heavy lifting. It's a good deal if you're shallow, lazy and conscienceless.

51 posted on 09/26/2002 4:20:49 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Sloth
I was there.

Where are you? We've got questions.

52 posted on 09/26/2002 4:35:11 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Thought you might appreciate this.
53 posted on 09/26/2002 4:36:08 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: glory
I think my brother did this is Florida(I remember him being in a 6 week program for advanced students of some sort).

You might want to ask him about it.

POEM BY AGS STUDENT

The following poem was written by a AGS student, but not one of those who committed suicide.

You brought us here to teach us, You said you could enrich our minds.

We came because we felt so honored, You picked us for our talent.

We came to class most faithfully, to learn and experience your vast wisdom.

We took down notes on what you said, and our minds absorbed all we could be,

But then we saw what we had gathered, and wondered how that this could be,

for established facts were proven wrong, and nothing twice was ever the same.

We went to class and were asked to stand, for our chairs, you said, did not exist.

You also said, "Stop your breathing, and prove to us you are not dead."

We went to class and stood in place, you asked us why we should be happy.

You said common sense showed we should be crying,

and our facade of happiness was only a weakness.

We went to public showings of things, that would be better off staying in private.

Death Jihads and single murders, discussion of these was heartily endorsed.

We went to lectures where we were told, there was no God and all was right.

Whatever you wanted, it was good, be it death jihads or single murder.

We also were told about our rights, and how we should defend them.

Allow the white robed and hooded figures to march,

while others denied these rights, cringe in fear.

We were told this and so much more, and many of us believed you.

And those of us who disagreed, unto us was rendered scorn and shame.

You brought us here to lie to us, You thought that you could crush our minds.

We came because we were so blind, So trusting and so naive.

But now you see, I have won, I've beaten you at your own game.

I know the gun I hold at my head is real, and I have the strength to put it down.


54 posted on 09/26/2002 4:50:07 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
The intellectually gifted children will supply the leadership for the next generation. It is in the interests of the currently-governing elites that these children be transformed into people who will support the goals of the elite

Those who will not allow themselves to be transformed, will be destroyed rather than risk that child will become a leader for the opposition

This is why I homeschool. I will shield my kids from the mental manipulators until I judge they are strong enough to recognise when someone is attempting mind-control techniques on them, and deal with the attempted controller appropriately

55 posted on 09/26/2002 5:34:10 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor
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To: EverOnward
My daughter is being encouraged to apply for the Governors School here in Virginia. Now, I'm wondering what goes on in Virginia?

Here's the Virginia site. It's run by the Virginia Department of Education.

On one of my previous posts a parent mentions that the seed money (three years) for these programs came from the Carnegie Foundation. This makes sense because the testimonials here ranging from 1983-1996 describe a similar format ("no absolutes," "we are the elite," "no one will understand this," PC curriculum). It seems that the Department of Ed takes over the operation after the seed money runs out.

So how are these schools funded today? Do they have a line item in the education budget? When were they first authorized? Was legislation put forward in various states in the same year? I'd like to know.

56 posted on 09/26/2002 5:57:21 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: SauronOfMordor
This is why I homeschool. I will shield my kids from the mental manipulators until I judge they are strong enough to recognise when someone is attempting mind-control techniques on them, and deal with the attempted controller appropriately

The number two reason why we homeschool. #1 is to learn the faith.

If parents knew what the educrats have in mind for their children many more people would be homeschooling. My kids will only enter a government school over my dead body.

57 posted on 09/26/2002 6:00:14 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Still don't have to time to respond adequately, I'm afraid... will try to do so sometime tonight. BTW, yes, the 'areas' were split up into classes of maybe 15-20 students and an instructor. To have everybody together would not have been practical; there are 400 students at AGS (or were when I was there). It was small-group-discussion oriented.

Area II was a philosophically oriented thing where your beliefs are challenged, kind of like a liberal humanist version FR. :)

Area III was warm fuzzy how-does-this-make-you-feel crap. The way one (idiot) fellow student put it was, "Area II is where they rip you apart, Area III is where they put you back together."

Most people (being emotional rather than logical) preferred III over II, but I liked II better.

More later...
58 posted on 09/26/2002 6:04:31 AM PDT by Sloth
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To: Slip18
Were prayers allowed?

Well, I don't know of anyone trying to pray out loud during one of the class periods... certainly it wasn't openly prohibited, and it probably would have been allowed if it wasn't disruptive, but anyone doing it probably would have been subject to ridicule from classmates. We did do 'meditation' in Area III once.

However, let me blow your mind by mentioning that in Area II, our class was at one point instructed to repeatedly chant the word 'F**k'.

59 posted on 09/26/2002 6:26:23 AM PDT by Sloth
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To: Let's Roll
Back in the early seventies, "I'm Okay, You're Okay" was being pushed and promoted to "enlighten" us youth. It sounded very good back then. Now that I am older, I wouldn't want my children to influenced by the no absolutes thnking. What is so sad and unbelievable about these educational elitists is that so many of them are so dysfunctional and they want everyone else to be the same! That way they are self affirmed and have no need to question right and wrong. No need to submit to The Authority that defines right and wrong.
60 posted on 09/26/2002 6:35:26 AM PDT by outinyellowdogcountry
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To: Let's Roll
Back in the early seventies, "I'm Okay, You're Okay" was being pushed and promoted to "enlighten" us youth. It sounded very good back then. Now that I am older, I wouldn't want my children to influenced by the no absolutes thnking. What is so sad and unbelievable about these educational elitists is that so many of them are so dysfunctional and they want everyone else to be the same! That way they are self affirmed and have no need to question right and wrong. No need to submit to The Authority that defines right and wrong.
61 posted on 09/26/2002 6:36:48 AM PDT by outinyellowdogcountry
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To: Aquinasfan
If you remember nothing else, remember this: the central reality of the modern leftist movement is that they hate western civilization. They view western man and western culture as a stumbling block on the path to globalist socialism.

Viewed through this lens, these governor's schools' purpose becomes obvious: they are ideological camps for the elite liberals to propagandize children. The purpose of the schools is to remove the children from outside support systems and then essentially brainwash them with the whole hideous circus of political correctness. They learn to doubt everything that they've been taught about their culture, religion, and nation. And into that doubt is placed a combination of radical relativism and socialist dogma.

Notice also the recurring theme from the kids that they now feel "elite" after what they've learned....and that their old friends and family are "simple" and "superficial". One of the ways which the liberals have propagated their philosophy (esp at the Ivy League universities) is to pose their ideology as much more "sophisticated" than the surrounding country. This has a natural appeal to young people....who like to feel that they are "hip" and "on the cutting edge". Now that they've adpoted this worldview, they rise above all others around and are members of the blessed annointed (Hillary has been caught in this stage of lefty development for several decades).

Frankly, the whole description of these schools reminds me of my freshman orientation at Brown. The liberals have this gig down to a science.

62 posted on 09/26/2002 6:49:34 AM PDT by quebecois
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To: wattsmag2; kcvl
NC did not have a 6 week affair, BTW. Nor were participants discouraged from communicating with "outsiders". Plus, it is run by the American Legion.

It does now. Here's the site for the North Carolina Governor's School Summer Program. Here's how they describe Area II and Area III:

Area II

Each student attends another class comprised of students from each of the Area I disciplines. Here students and teachers explore connections between and among these disciplines. As integrative concepts emerge, the class attempts to construct an understanding of contemporary ways of thinking and of the culture that arises from them.

Area III

This third class is also comprised of students from each of the Area I disciplines. Here students attempt to ground what they are learning in their Area I and II classes in their own personal experience. Finally, they apply that understanding to their social worlds.

Sounds like the same program that ran in Arkansas in 1992. Sounds like a job for a good investigative reporter. No one is on to these things.
63 posted on 09/26/2002 6:52:11 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Sloth
More later...

Thanks for your comments so far. More Q's:

What have you heard about the kid who committed suicide?

Had you heard any complaints from parents about their children's behavior after leaving?

64 posted on 09/26/2002 6:59:32 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Sloth
However, let me blow your mind by mentioning that in Area II, our class was at one point instructed to repeatedly chant the word 'F**k'.

Whoa. One mind blown.

65 posted on 09/26/2002 7:00:58 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: quebecois
Now that they've adpoted this worldview, they rise above all others around and are members of the blessed annointed (Hillary has been caught in this stage of lefty development for several decades).

I wasn't aware of this angle. I can see how this would be very seductive for high schoolers. I remember how insecure I was at that age and how important positive reinforcement from faculty was to me. It's frightening to remember how utterly naiive I was. There but for the grace of God go I.

66 posted on 09/26/2002 7:06:52 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan; Constitution Day
CD..........disturbing info here. Follow the link to the NC Governors School.

It looks to me like they are choosing the best and brightest for indoctrination, the future leaders of our country.

Everyone reading this should be VERY frightened for the future of our country. I wasn't even aware of the exsistance of this school and I venture to say most people aren't.

MKM

67 posted on 09/26/2002 7:25:40 AM PDT by mykdsmom
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To: mykdsmom
I wasn't even aware of the exsistance of this school and I venture to say most people aren't.

I saw the video in '92 but thought that the only Governor's School was in Bill Clinton's Arkansas. Apparently, that school was the tip of the iceberg.

To everyone, please e-mail your friends linking them to this thread calling special attention to post #59. It wouldn't hurt to forward this to any reporters that you might know either. This is ripe for an investigative report.

68 posted on 09/26/2002 7:33:25 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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I hit the motherload, The National Conference of Governor's Schools including a discussion board and board meeting minutes.

Time for some research.

69 posted on 09/26/2002 7:43:51 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
I went to the Georgia equivalent, GHP, in 1991. It was a competitive program where you picked a "major," took written tests, and went through an interview. Any student with even a slight interest in advanced classes knew about it.

Selected students spent six weeks at Valdosta State. We weren't allowed to bring cars or to ever leave campus except with parents, or on supervised Sunday afternoon trips to a nearby shopping center. I blame these regulations on the liabilities of being in charge of a bunch of high schoolers, not necessarily on some twisted agenda.

Anyway, I spent six weeks learning about math and goofing off in the dorms. My "minor" was music, and the worst mental torture I experienced was our embarrasingly bad music minor concert at the end of the program. All in all, it seemed pretty harmless. We had nothing like what's described in this article as "Area II" or "Area III."

While I can't defend what these instructors have done, this is the sort of situation that well-adjusted teenagers should be able to handle. I know I had a lot of irrational and just plain stupid thoughts as a teenager, and fought with my parents over trivial things, but I guess I placed a lot of emphasis on self-preservation and never really considered suicide. I think these kids were just messed up to begin with and this program opened the floodgates.

70 posted on 09/26/2002 7:47:38 AM PDT by LeftIsSinister
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Here's one workshop listed under Break-Out Sessions for the October 14, 2002 NCOGS annual conference. Mark your calendar!

Personal & Social Dynamics Curriculum

Frank Corley, PSD Coordinator, Missouri Scholars

Academy & other members of MSA faculty and staff "Personal and Social Dynamics" ("PSD") is a curriculum put together by the Missouri Scholars Academy ("MSA") and intended to address a number of key developmental issues that teenagers -- especially ones who are "gifted" -- confront in secondary schools, in families, in communities, and in relationships. The fact that Governor's Schools are "residential" schools, where students are part of virtual families and real communities, and, thanks, in part, to the accepting and tolerant environment established by Governors Schools, become involved in a range of both short-term and long-term relationships -- provides an obvious opportunity to see the immediate contexts of the topics raised in PSD. Key to the success of PSD is the teamwork of a "residential assistant" and a "faculty member" who co-facilitate each portion of the curriculum. This NCoGS session will focus on one typical day from the 2002 MSA PSD curriculum but will also allow audience members to understand the overall curriculum.

It's tough to read between the lines of this educratese, but this sounds rather ominous to me.

"Thanks, in part, to the accepting and tolerant environment established by Governors Schools, [students] become involved in a range of both short-term and long-term relationships -- provid[ing] an obvious opportunity to see the immediate contexts of the topics raised in PSD."

Or, "let's experiment on some kids for fun." Ever wonder why they call these things educational laboratories?

Here's the map of the Department of Education Lab National Network. God help us. Here's the Dept. of Education Lab site.

71 posted on 09/26/2002 8:05:38 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: mykdsmom
CD..........disturbing info here. Follow the link to the NC Governors School.

MKM,

This is news to me; I haven't thought of Governor's School in years.

In 1987, I was nominated by my art teacher to attend NC Governor's School West at Salem College.
I did not make the cut... this makes me glad.

CD

72 posted on 09/26/2002 8:10:52 AM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: LeftIsSinister
Your nickname tells me you're on to something. This was posted on the National Conference of Governor's Schools discussion board:
Begin to Share

Name: Daniel Hocutt
Email: dhocutt@richmond.edu

Comments

What kind of resources are programs developing or considering as a response to the tragedies of September 11 and the ongoing fear that anthrax scares are generating? At the Governor's School for Humanities and Visual & Performing Arts at the University of Richmond, some of the Humanities faculty develop a course last year (2001) called "Head to Head and Worlds Apart." The course examined the question, "What happens when cultures collide?" and studied several cultures and movements, including the Taliban, to foster appreciation for the difficult plight many people experience. They were even able to bring in a teen Afghan regugee to meet with the students and share his horrific experiences. How serendipitous and tragic at the same time! I am working to get a copy of their syllabus available online for others to share.

Here is a copy of the course's description.

"What happens when cultures collide? In this course we will consider the ramifications of cultural contact, conflict, and change through the lens of historical perspective and future projection. We will have the opportunity to come face to face with survivors of cultural clashes from such venues as Afghanistan and West Africa. Through field trips and reading we will look far afield at the tragedy of the Holocaust and reflect upon the legacy of cultural divide within our own country.[!] From contemporary headlines we will select, research, and compile case studies to be presented to a Model World Court."

Nothing to see here. Move along.

73 posted on 09/26/2002 8:19:10 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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And a reply to the post: Re: Begin to Share

Name: Chris Campolo
Email: campolo@hendrix.edu

Comments

I think a model world court is an excellent idea for GS. I wonder how to set it up so that we do not receive "rulings" which merely reflect prevailing sentiments (anger and patriotism, here, anyway). Any ideas?

Chris

74 posted on 09/26/2002 8:37:59 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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Some good news from the NCOGS discussion board:

TN Governor's Schools cancelled

Name: Steve Jones
Email: webmaster@gsfta.org

Comments

All seven of the Governor's Schools in TN have been cancelled by our Governor due to the politics of fighting over the creation of a state income tax. Some of these schools have been in existence for 18 years. We are looking at a well over $500 million shortfall in state revenues this year. The arts and education were the first to go. The Governor's Schools were cut by the Governor in a $15 million cut to education. You can find out more by checking out the link on our homepage at http://www.gsfta.org. Please stay on top of your state politicians to keep this from happening to you.


75 posted on 09/26/2002 8:41:20 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Axenolith
associates of Pol Pot..

I read this article about a month ago at the encouragement of another Freeper. My first reaction was that it sounded like Pol Pot's regime. Very scary indeed!

76 posted on 09/26/2002 8:57:50 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Eva
Eva, I personally believe that some of this may be going on in the public schools under our very eyes. During an education class I had to take, from very liberal teachers, they mentioned that the curriculum of "gifted" students who are taken from the classroom and bussed out each week are often very secret. When the regular classroom teacher inquired what her "gifted" students were studying, so that she could integrate that material with her lesson plans, she was told that it was secret. Even the teachers are puzzled by this. She says that sometimes the kids will tell her what they learn, but many times they will not (we're talking about 6th graders here who normally would love to talk to their teachers). I had to conclude that they had been instructed not to tell anyone what they were doing. My daughter's once-best friend was in the gifted program and from talking with her, I could tell that she was taught to believe that these students were not only smarter, but altogether better, than other "ordinary" students. She even classified them into "good" and "bad" camps. And she's from a Christian family!

I know no more than what I have just written, but it seems to me that someone in the schools are identifying who they consider the best and brightest and are indoctrinating them quietly behind closed doors. ALL the parents I know whose children are in these classes are delighted. It is a badge of honor for them, as well it should if we could be sure that no nefarious goal was at work. I happen to think otherwise.

77 posted on 09/26/2002 9:10:09 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Nathan Jr.
The problem I have with taking kids to visit a funeral home is that it should be one of the major life-cycle type events that takes place in the context of a family. Death is part of life. Once we remove life-cycle events from the family, we invite the state to own us entirely.
78 posted on 09/26/2002 9:14:07 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Aquinasfan
We went to lectures where we were told, there was no God

I went to a geography class Tuesday night in a local community college and the professor showed us satellite images proving the probable existence of the Biblical Garden of Eden. I nearly fell out of my chair. Not only did he make his argument with scientific evidence, he started it with the presumption that the Bible is real and literal. I've been in and out of schools for a number of years and this is one of the few times I've ever seen this happen. I had to think what a wonderful lesson this was for the young people in there who had probably consistently been told that there is no absolute truth!

79 posted on 09/26/2002 9:24:57 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Aquinasfan
But now you see, I have won, I've beaten you at your own game.

I know the gun I hold at my head is real, and I have the strength to put it down.

Not an amazing poem, but I LOVE these last few lines.

Unfortunatley, many did not have the strength to put down the weapon of mental destruction and took it to its logical conclusion; death.

80 posted on 09/26/2002 9:37:05 AM PDT by Damocles
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To: twigs
We moved out of a school district because they had a special program, called "Aiming High", which separated all the "gifted" students from the rest of the school in middle school. My son did not make the cut, even though he had been recommended for the program by his teachers.

When I went into the school to discuss the program with the principal, I contended that the program was inequitable because it offered special enrichment to the "gifted" kids that was not offered to regular students. I said that it denied the regular kids the stimulation of having brighter students in the classroom and basicly condemned the regular classes to "Aiming for mediocrasy. The principal told me that perhaps the regular
students didn't belong on a college prep track because we don't need so many college educated students, anyway.

It's called goal based education. In other words the powers that be are going to pre-determine what level of education your kid deserves based on their own stupid tests and what career path they choose for your kid. In our school district that meant that none but the gifted were aimed for college.
81 posted on 09/26/2002 9:55:24 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Aquinasfan
thanks for this thread aquinasfan; To me, americans are very foolish not to overwhelmingly require a voucher system. Every single child should have his education funded by the state taxpayers and they should all be funded equally. But the school that educates that child should be selected by the parent, not the state. The state should also not intervene into the school's functioning to dictate the curriculum or anything of that sort. This is not only necessary to restore quality to our education system, but to ensure simple civil rights.

Some people say that if we did that then muslim wahabis will have schools or that wickans or devil worshipers would have schools. The american born mainstream education professionals will do a lot more damage to america in their schools than these other small groups will do in their schools.

With vouchers we will fund a large variety of schools. There will be some that will be absolutely excellent. Those schools will be increasing their enrollment wildly as time goes on. They will also influence the other schools to follow their lead. With vouchers we can completely revolutionize the school systems and realize great improvements over time. With the current system where we give taxpayer money to these types of people highlighted on this thread we are just destroying ourselves.
82 posted on 09/26/2002 9:56:19 AM PDT by Red Jones
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To: Aquinasfan
thanks for this thread aquinasfan; To me, americans are very foolish not to overwhelmingly require a voucher system. Every single child should have his education funded by the state taxpayers and they should all be funded equally. But the school that educates that child should be selected by the parent, not the state. The state should also not intervene into the school's functioning to dictate the curriculum or anything of that sort. This is not only necessary to restore quality to our education system, but to ensure simple civil rights.

Some people say that if we did that then muslim wahabis will have schools or that wickans or devil worshipers would have schools. The american born mainstream education professionals will do a lot more damage to america in their schools than these other small groups will do in their schools.

With vouchers we will fund a large variety of schools. There will be some that will be absolutely excellent. Those schools will be increasing their enrollment wildly as time goes on. They will also influence the other schools to follow their lead. With vouchers we can completely revolutionize the school systems and realize great improvements over time. With the current system where we give taxpayer money to these types of people highlighted on this thread we are just destroying ourselves.
83 posted on 09/26/2002 9:56:32 AM PDT by Red Jones
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To: twigs
I had to think what a wonderful lesson this was for the young people in there who had probably consistently been told that there is no absolute truth!

Heads will roll.

84 posted on 09/26/2002 10:12:14 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: twigs
I had to conclude that they had been instructed not to tell anyone what they were doing.

God help them, and us. Very enlightening and unfortunately, depressing.

85 posted on 09/26/2002 10:14:49 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Eva
Eva, you are one of the wiser parents. Although I live in a pretty good school district, all of them around here bus out kids for this program. I agree with you that all kids should get the benefit of a challenging education. This same teacher told us that somehow, once, she got ahold of the math challenge problems that the "gifted" kids worked on. She thought they were really good, so she used them for her "ordinary" kids. The "gifted" teacher went into a huff and told my teacher that she would have to devise another plan. IOW, whatever the "gifted" stduents needed to do HAD to be different from that which the "ordinary" students did.

As I sat in on many classes in our area, I was quite surprised, in this age of policital correctness, how aware teachers were between "ordinary" students and "gifted" ones. Although I'm a conservative who sees differences among people, I felt very uncomfortable at this characterization. Kids tend to live out the expectations handed to them. I only saw one teacher who expressly designed her lesson plans to mirror the advanced content of the courses she once taught at a private school. I was very impressed at the results of her class. She assured me that if you challenge any kids to think and learn, they will (there are always individual exceptions; I'm talking here about the group). Her "ordinary" students gave her the same level of results as did her prior private-school students. I think that's because she expected them to.

86 posted on 09/26/2002 10:22:50 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Eva
It's called goal based education. In other words the powers that be are going to pre-determine what level of education your kid deserves based on their own stupid tests and what career path they choose for your kid. In our school district that meant that none but the gifted were aimed for college.

This philosophy dates back to the origins of compulsory government education not only in America, but right back to the Prussia of the early 1800s. Fichte, the German atheistic philosopher thought it best to school the "elite" 1% in separate schools which would provide something like a classical education. Another 5% would be trained to be professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc.) The remaining 94% were to be prepared for being drones. The curriculum for these children was designed to actually diminish their intellectual abilities. Especially important was the goal of diminishing an interest in self-education. Preventing them from reading was the key. The technique to accomplish this? Whole language.

The absolutely stunning history is outlined in John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education

87 posted on 09/26/2002 10:24:24 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Thank you for your post. In fact, you have just given me an idea. I have to write a senior thesis in order to receive my teaching certification in English and I just chose the topic of how the Sapir-Whorf theory has influenced educational theory. [I'm assuming it has; if not, I'll have to change my focus a bit.] I hadn't thought of pursuing the area of whole language instruction, but it might be the direction to go. I'd like to know more about its history and underpinnings. I need to get Gatto's book. I've heard a lot of good things about it.
88 posted on 09/26/2002 10:30:15 AM PDT by twigs
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To: twigs
I need to get Gatto's book. I've heard a lot of good things about it.

I forgot to mention that the first eight chapters are available to read now on-line. Click on the link above. The chapters dealing with whole language are included in the available chapters.

Another good book for information regarding the origins of whole language is Sam Blumenfeld's "NEA: Trojan Horse in American Education." Gatto's history seems to be more extensive though.

89 posted on 09/26/2002 10:46:06 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: twigs
I just chose the topic of how the Sapir-Whorf theory has influenced educational theory

What's that?

90 posted on 09/26/2002 10:47:59 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
I am not sure that whole language would accomplish this goal. The sight reading method that I was taught in first grade was essentially the equivalent of whole language and actually produced a much faster, more interested reader. I realize that not all students are suited to sight reading, but those who are get a jump start on reading that sustains them all the way through college.

Did you know that dyslexics can't learn phonetic reading, and that is their main reading roadblock? So, there are two groups who benfit from sight reading, visual learners and learning disabled.

In short, there is no, one size fits all method of teaching reading. The needs of all students need to be considered and methods altered to suit. I guess what I am advocating is the old reading groups. We had planes, trains, cars and boats.

In my school district (along time ago), a classical education was the goal for everyone. Rather than condemning some to a lesser education, you had to opt out. Up to five years of Latin was offered and advanced classes were open to anyone who was interested. The school scored in the top ten in country on Iowa tests.
91 posted on 09/26/2002 10:48:17 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Eva
Eva, I agree with your remarks about reading. When my daughter started in Christian kindergarten, I heard some parents discussing how the public school children were learning to read faster while their children were losing interest. It always seemed to me that a combination of the two methods was the way to go. Certain words need to be memorized anyway. I also agree with you that there is no "one" ideal way to teach reading; actually to teach anything.
92 posted on 09/26/2002 11:00:57 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Aquinasfan
The hypothesis posits that language determines thought, that the thoughts we construct are based upon the language that we speak and the words that we use. It is the underlying premise of newspeak in Orwell's 1984. I haven't yet done much research, but what I want to do is determine if a belief in that premise has influenced educational philosophy--and methodology--in the past half-century.
93 posted on 09/26/2002 11:13:17 AM PDT by twigs
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To: twigs
In my opinion, phonics works best when started in pre-school, where the child is thrilled to be able to figure out one word at a time. By first grade, alot of kids will be bored by this method and be in a hurry to read more than a word at a time. Phonics also slows down the comprehension.

It seems though, that for alot of children, drawing boxes around words and using flash cards doesn't seem to work. It's hard for me to understand because all my family, myself included, are visual learners. I even have a bit of a photographic memory. I can remember times when I didn't know the answer to a test question and I could close my eyes and read it on the page of the text.
94 posted on 09/26/2002 11:36:16 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Eva; twigs
I am not sure that whole language would accomplish this goal. The sight reading method that I was taught in first grade was essentially the equivalent of whole language and actually produced a much faster, more interested reader. I realize that not all students are suited to sight reading, but those who are get a jump start on reading that sustains them all the way through college.

I'll condense what I read from Gatto and Blumenfeld.

Sight reading is appropriate for languages like Chinese where pictures represent words. Phonics is appropriate for languages like ours in which letters represent sounds.

"Sight reading" has been promoted by advocates for the reasons you mention –it avoids the drudgery of flashcards and learning letter sounds. The drawback is that it is a very bad paradigm for deciphering unknown words. There is no way for someone who has learned to sight read only to "sound out" previously unencountered words. The resulting frustration leads to anger, despair at reading and an association of reading with pain. This is the effect that whole language advocates like Dewey desired. His goal for youngsters was two-fold, to encourage children to work together to guess at the meaning of words and to limit the ability of the child to read, and hence learn, by himself.

There is a marked correlation between whole language instruction and declining literacy rates wherever it has forced out phonics instruction. Perhaps the most notable example is the decline in reading ability of American GI's from the 30's to the 50's and the drop in California test scores ten or twenty years ago when whole language was implemented statewide. Check out Gatto for his sources.

Did you know that dyslexics can't learn phonetic reading, and that is their main reading roadblock? So, there are two groups who benfit from sight reading, visual learners and learning disabled.

I've read the opposite. From what I've read, the "brain pattern" testing that was performed decades ago and upon which that conclusion is drawn is wrong, but has become textbook orthodoxy.

In my school district (along time ago), a classical education was the goal for everyone. Rather than condemning some to a lesser education, you had to opt out. Up to five years of Latin was offered and advanced classes were open to anyone who was interested. The school scored in the top ten in country on Iowa tests.

The history of American government education is very tangled and there are many threads running through it. On one hand you have the elitist/dumbing down vision of Horace Mann, The Columbia Teacher's College, Thorndike, and Dewey. On the other hand you have the classical approach that has its origins in grassroots American self-education and religious instruction. The origins of compulsory education in the 18th century are an incoherent mixture of Protestantism, Hegelianism, Unitarianism, socialism, social Darwinism, and psychology.

The influence of Protestantism declined linearly from the early 1900s through the Supreme Court decision banning school prayer in the mid-1960s when the schools became the exclusive domain of humanists, socialists and psychologists.

That explains why you could still receive a classical education "a long time ago."

Give Gatto a read. You won't be disappointed.

95 posted on 09/26/2002 11:41:08 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Eva
Very, very interesting. You've said a number of things there that I have never thought about. My daughter is a very visual learner. When in kindergarten, her teacher (a very good one too) suggested I consider a very light dose of Ritalin (I didn't). Now, at 17, she's ready to soon enter college to study art. Yet, she always relied on her phonics to read. She started k/g when she was 4. By the time she was 5, she was even more rammy. She showed signs of boredom during these young years, and when I mentioned it to her principal, he said that was an adult concept and that children didn't experience it. I knew better b/c I was seeing it.

I never thought of my learning style, but I do try to visual things to draw upon knowledge. I also try to "see" a text in my mind. Thank you. Very, very interesting!

96 posted on 09/26/2002 11:43:52 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Eva
Gatto and Blumenfeld both assert that a self-motivated individual can learn to read competently in 40 hours regardless of age if instructed with a phonics program.

My experience confirms this. At age four my first daughter learned to read competently (could independently handle short Dr. Seuss books) after about 30 hours of teaching (1/2 hour a day for two months) with Blumenfeld's book, Aphaphonics. My second daughter was even faster, learning in about twenty hours. But she was 4-1/2.

Both already knew their letter sounds from watching Sesame Street.

97 posted on 09/26/2002 11:46:04 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Thank you.
98 posted on 09/26/2002 11:46:20 AM PDT by twigs
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To: twigs
The hypothesis posits that language determines thought, that the thoughts we construct are based upon the language that we speak and the words that we use. It is the underlying premise of newspeak in Orwell's 1984. I haven't yet done much research, but what I want to do is determine if a belief in that premise has influenced educational philosophy--and methodology--in the past half-century.

Sounds like a great topic. You're dead on. That's why euphemisms are so important. Language doesn't directly, mechanically determine thought, but it heavily influences thought and most importantly seems to set up boundaries over which the formed mind is reluctant to cross.

The answer to the last question is a resounding yes. Gatto covers some of that territory too.

99 posted on 09/26/2002 11:50:03 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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Comment #100 Removed by Moderator


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