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What rights have we lost over the last several years? HELP!
10/2/02

Posted on 10/02/2002 8:28:42 AM PDT by mtngrl@vrwc

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To: mtngrl@vrwc
Smokers lost their right to smoke in their offices, restaurants, bars, and in some cases (parental custody cases) their own homes.

I read the whole document over again and I can't find where smoking is a Constitutionally protected right. Sorry.

41 posted on 10/02/2002 10:29:19 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
I read the whole document over again and I can't find where smoking is a Constitutionally protected right. Sorry.

I assume you refer to the federal Constitution. It has no enumerated power to regulate smoking, and all non-enumerated powers are specifically prohibited and reserved to the states per the 10th Amendment:

Amendment X: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So, your state may regulate smoking, or delegate such powers to localities, but only if its Constitution allows it.

Furthermore, rights are not granted by the Constitution, they are recognized and protected by it. Not all rights need be enumerated to be recognized or protected, and the 9th Amendment was added to settle any doubts:

Amendment IX: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

42 posted on 10/02/2002 10:38:25 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: mtngrl@vrwc
Actually her main argument was that the Constitution was a flexible document and that the founding fathers knew that things would change and wanted the Constitution to be able to change along with the times.

"The establishment of our institutions," wrote President Monroe, "forms the most important epoch that history hath recorded. They extend unexampled felicity to the whole body of our fellow-citizens, and are the admiration of other nations. To preserve and hand them down in their utmost purity to the remotest ages will require the existence and practice of virtues and talents equal to those which were displayed in acquiring them. It is ardently hoped and confidently believed that these will not be wanting."

43 posted on 10/02/2002 10:45:50 AM PDT by KDD
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To: KDD
Bookmarking Bump; thanks.
44 posted on 10/02/2002 10:48:42 AM PDT by brityank
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To: freeeee
But where is smoking a right? Is drinking a right? Taking drugs? Driving a car? All those are regulated without running into any sort of Constitutional questions, 9th and 10th Amendments notwithstanding.
45 posted on 10/02/2002 10:50:53 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
But where is smoking a right? Is drinking a right? Taking drugs? Driving a car? All those are regulated without running into any sort of Constitutional questions, 9th and 10th Amendments notwithstanding.

Ever heard of Prohibition? The federal gov't, at that time still somewhat controlled, realized a Constitutional amendment was needed in order to botain the power to regulate alcohol.

The federal gov't has no authority to regulate tobacco or drugs. These powers are reserved to the states or the people.

Likewise, the federal gov't has no authority to regulate driving.

SD

46 posted on 10/02/2002 10:55:20 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Non-Sequitur
But where is smoking a right? Is drinking a right? Taking drugs? Driving a car?

All actions that do not inhibit the ability of others to similarly exercise their own rights are natural rights. They needn't be spelled out anywhere. The founders called this "the pursuit of happiness".

Driving a car is a bit special. You have a right to drive your own car, but if you drive it on property you don't own, you are subject to the property owner's rules.

All those are regulated without running into any sort of Constitutional questions, 9th and 10th Amendments notwithstanding.

You are saying that if we ignore parts of the Constitution, your theory has no constitutional issues? Well, if I hop in the ocean and ignore water, being wet isn't an issue either.

Besides, the Constitution has the principles of the 9th and 10th Amendments built in. They were only added because some of the founders were wise enough to know we needed to spell them out specifically. They saw you coming 200 years away.

47 posted on 10/02/2002 11:12:11 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: SoothingDave
While I agree with you, the SCOTUS hasn't for the last 180 years. Read the debates between the Jeffersonians and the Hamiltonians about the creation of the First National Bank, and see the case McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) about creation of the Second National Bank, where the USSC gave Congress "implied powers". Since then, we've been on the slippery slope, such that every time a Congresscritter wanted pork outside the enumerated powers, they just cried "Necessary and Proper".

The dialogue between the Jeffersonians and the Hamiltonians gives good insight into the intended meaning of the Necessary and Proper clause and the Xth, since both were the written by a Jeffersonian.

48 posted on 10/02/2002 11:21:28 AM PDT by jae471
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To: freeeee
Yeah the slipper-slope arguement works for anything.

"We would never make customers pay extra taxes for cigarettes, only the large corporations"

"The customer should be paying taxes for the medicare costs the smoker will be using later in life"

"Smokers should pay extra taxes since it is an anti-social behavior and they need motivation to stop"

"Cigarette taxes should be raised to discourage teen smoking"

"Smoking puts non smokers at risk, and therefore should be banned in all public places."

"Smoking should be banned"

"We would never make customers pay extra taxes for fast food, only the large corporations"

And on and on the cycle continues!
49 posted on 10/02/2002 11:22:16 AM PDT by chudogg
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To: mtngrl@vrwc
I strongly recommend James Bovard's frightening little volume Lost Rights - the Destruction of American Liberty. I think the government will still allow you to purchase it...
50 posted on 10/02/2002 11:23:18 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: mtngrl@vrwc; dd5339
Habeas Corpus:

Bush Suspends Habeas Corpus: Legal Immigrants May Be Held Without Cause

Washington, DC--The Bush Administration today announced it is using its
powers under the National Emergency Act to suspend the right of habeas
corpus for all immigrants in the country, including legal immigrants,
meaning that any immigrant in the United States right now can be held
indefinitely by the police or government without trial or demonstration of
cause to hold them.

In short, all immigrants in the country are now subject to summary arrest.

The declaration by the Bush administration is being followed by a move in
Congress to grant the Justice Department the power to summarily detain any
immigrant in the United States, citizen or not, as a matter of law, and not
just in exceptional circumstances.

Though no one has yet suggested infringing the rights of US citizens, the
move is a frightening first step to a national tyranny, based on perpetual
suspension of the Constitution in the name of fighting perpetual war. The
US lived under such tyranny during the Civil War and World Wars I and II.

[END]

51 posted on 10/02/2002 11:25:00 AM PDT by Vic3O3
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To: freeeee
Slippery slope arguements appeal to the converted but not the unwashed.
52 posted on 10/02/2002 11:58:00 AM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: mtngrl@vrwc
bttt
53 posted on 10/02/2002 11:58:16 AM PDT by Pagey
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To: mssnoop; Joe Montana; Uncle Bill; Fred Mertz; Askel5
BUMP !!!!!!
54 posted on 10/02/2002 12:11:33 PM PDT by Donald Stone
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To: KDD
The 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I see "probable cause" and specificity ("Oath or affirmation"). I do not see notice required. One can at best infer notice from the above concepts. Ordinarily one can cross-examine oath takers, but would have to know about the oaths in order to do so. Naturally this is impossible before the search, but can be used to quash evidence at trial. And indeed, at trial one gets notice of evidence and can attempt to refute the evidence or even have the evidence thrown out by refuting the probable cause used for the warrant.

I don't see notice or refutation either implied or necessary before the government does something with the evidence at trial; for one thing, at trial one can at best get the evidence thrown out of the proceedings; one can't undo the search.

In sum:

1) One virtually never gets notice before the police come to your door to perform a search (lest you remove evidence).

2) If there's a warrant, the search will be made whether or not you're at home, and regardless of any objections you might voice.

3) Before the government can do anything against you with the evidence, you can contest it and the warrant at trial, and have it thrown out. So you have notice and can contest before the government actually does anything with the evidence.* Provided you are given a reasonably speedy trial, and are given information about the search in sufficient time before trial, none of your rights have been violated.

* anything legally, that is. The government may of course use the evidence to track down illegal combatants in our war on Islamofascist Terrorism. But that's exactly the point.

55 posted on 10/02/2002 12:12:14 PM PDT by DWPittelli
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To: Vic3O3
to grant the Justice Department the power to summarily detain any immigrant in the United States, citizen or not, as a matter of law, and not just in exceptional circumstances. Though no one has yet suggested infringing the rights of US citizens...

Your article contradicts itself and has no source. Who made this up?

56 posted on 10/02/2002 12:14:25 PM PDT by DWPittelli
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To: freeeee
I remember a slippery slope example.
"All we're asking for is no-smoking on continental domestic flights under two hours. It's common sense and for the public health. Please be reasonable, that's all we want."
57 posted on 10/02/2002 2:26:15 PM PDT by martian_22
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To: mtngrl@vrwc
I hope it doesn't take you as long as it did me to learn not to waste your time with that totatalitarian-fascist idiot Non-Sequitur (choosing such an appropriate screen name was probably the only halfway intelligent action in his life).

"I read the whole document over again and I can't find where smoking is a Constitutionally protected right. Sorry."

Can there be a notion more representative of the totalitarian fascist idiocy that informs our Al Gore and William Hamilton Clinton supporting liberal brethern more than this? If the Constitution doesn't specifically mention it as such, it isn't a right. Even the totalitarian-fascist Alexander Hamilton knew better than that.

58 posted on 10/02/2002 4:12:32 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius
Exactly! Bravo!
59 posted on 10/02/2002 5:19:25 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: Aurelius; ladyinred
If the Constitution doesn't specifically mention it as such, it isn't a right. Even the totalitarian-fascist Alexander Hamilton knew better than that.

Unless the Constitution specifically mentions something isn't a right, it is a right.

60 posted on 10/02/2002 5:48:35 PM PDT by mtngrl@vrwc
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