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TRANSCRIPT: Moyers hosts RON PAUL (R, Tx) on PBS's "NOW"
"NOW" (PBS) ^ | 10/04/02 | Ron Paul | Bill Moyers

Posted on 10/04/2002 8:37:02 PM PDT by Askel5

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1 posted on 10/04/2002 8:37:02 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
2309.       "The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration.

The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy.

At one and the same time:

  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

  • there must be serious prospects of success;

  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'JUST WAR' doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."

2 posted on 10/04/2002 8:38:17 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
The animals spirits are in a worldwide frenzy

I gave up after reading this...

3 posted on 10/04/2002 8:39:47 PM PDT by Drango
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To: Drango
Precisely the reason I gave a jumplink to Paul's comments.

Feel free to use whatever excuse you feel merits sticking your head in the sand, however.

4 posted on 10/04/2002 8:42:27 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
You are my superior in ability to adsorb dribble. I admire you.
5 posted on 10/04/2002 8:49:38 PM PDT by Drango
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To: Drango
Gosh ... who knew that the first two (and only thus far) comments on the thread would consist of

  1. An attack of Moyers.

    Who, regardless his own dink motives, is affording the Republican and Christian Ron Paul an excellent platform for educating "animal spirit" sorts of liberals on LEGITIMATE reasons to oppose not only the war but question the wisdom of our preemptive strike "language".

  2. A personal attack on me.

Impressive.
6 posted on 10/04/2002 9:00:19 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Suprised?

Why?

7 posted on 10/04/2002 9:02:01 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Askel5
And they will take our quotes and use it. They could take our legislation and use it. So, yes … I think what we're doing here in re-doing this policy has really changed things a lot and that is probably the thing that we should fear the most.

Good point. I think Ron knows that the Nuclear Club is not admitting any new members. Especially a country that sits in the middle of the ring of fire.

8 posted on 10/04/2002 9:03:17 PM PDT by nunya bidness
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To: Askel5
"Even the Persian Gulf War might have been better fought by Israel and Moderate Arabs..."

Yuh. THAT was really likely ever to happen, at least on this planet. Don't know about the one Ron Paul inhabits. This interview reveals Paul to be a banal and unexceptional thinker, but at least he got his 15 minutes of fame, courtesy of the liberal drunk.
9 posted on 10/04/2002 9:06:48 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Pistias
Not really. It no longer depresses me quite as much as it used to either.

Well, the most important characteristic was:
Don't mess with the language ...
Don’t have a real debate but just sort of rubberstamp it

RE-ADJUSTMENT

I thought there would be a grave beauty, a sunset splendour
In being the last of one's kind: a topmost moment as one watched
The huge wave curving over Atlantis, the shrouded barge
Turning away with wounded Arthur, or Ilium burning.
Now I see that, all along, I was assuming a posterity
Of gentle hearts: someone, however distant in the depths of time,
Who could pick up our signal, who could understand a story. There won't be.

Between the new Hembidae and us who are dying, already
There rises a barrier across which no voice can ever carry,
For devils are unmaking language. We must let that alone forever.
Uproot your loves, one by one, with care, from the future,
And trusting to no future, receive the massive thrust
And surge of the many-dimensional timeless rays converging
On this small, significant dew drop, the present that mirrors all.

C. S. Lewis -- Open Mic Nite

10 posted on 10/04/2002 9:07:21 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: hinckley buzzard
THAT was really likely ever to happen, at least on this planet.

Surely it was worth a shot. As Sharon, I believe, reminded the world a few weeks ago, at least Israel WINS every war it sets out to fight.

11 posted on 10/04/2002 9:08:59 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
MOYERS: You've been consistent in your conservative positions:

Paul is not a Conservative -- he's a libertarian.

12 posted on 10/04/2002 9:22:32 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Askel5
Paul would call for an end to all U.S. funding of Israel, I believe, along with an end to U.S. funding of Egypt and the PLO via the U.N.

Israel might collapse without U.S. welfare, and then pose no counter to Saddam.
13 posted on 10/04/2002 9:28:41 PM PDT by secretagent
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To: Askel5
And when Israel went in and took out that nuclear reactor in the early 1980s, actually I was one of the very few Republicans who supported it! It's in their interest to deal with it.

Paul liked when Israel used a "pre-emptive" strike.

14 posted on 10/04/2002 9:29:14 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Askel5
2309. "The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration.

The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy.

At one and the same time:

the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

WTC of NYC down, 4 airplanes down, 3000 people dead. "lasting, grave, and certain" - check.

Some will quibble that we don't have proof that Iraq (Saddam) were directly involved in this particular attack. That's not necessary. They did train al-Qaeda in Iraq, and still harbor them there. They are giving aid and comfort to our enemies. This is in addition to having WMD, a history of using them, and a hatred of US. Evidence: attempted assassination of President GHW Bush.

all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

Check. Ten years of sanctions, no fly zones, and inspections have been used by Iraq to barter their food money for weapons, kick out inspectors, and build their WMD. The appeal to the UN and to Iraq by President Bush to immediately fulfill its obligations to the UN was their last chance. They have blown it.

there must be serious prospects of success;

Check. I don't think there are too many who doubt the US chances of success. Key will be focusing on destroying WMD rather than occupying territory. Ron Paul did not have much doubt about our success. The nightmare scenario of fighting from block to block in Bagdad can be avoided by simply surrounding the city and let the people surrender block by block in exchange for food.

the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

The US war in Afghanistan showed the most accurate use of ordinance in history. Iraq has superior conditions (more military targets) to Afghanistan.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'JUST WAR' doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."

That would be our President, Mr. GW Bush. He has shown great prudence so far.

Askel, is this the kind of reply you wanted? I was really disappointed in hearing the famous Mr. Paul. He was either irrational, or operating from a wholly different fact base than I do.

15 posted on 10/04/2002 9:32:23 PM PDT by Forgiven_Sinner
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To: hinckley buzzard
~"a banal and unexceptional thinker"

Do you even know what those words mean?
16 posted on 10/04/2002 9:33:58 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Askel5
How disappointing I thought Ron Paul had more sense than this.
17 posted on 10/04/2002 9:34:13 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Askel5
MOYERS: Have you seen or heard anything from the CIA, the Pentagon, the State Department or the White House to suggest that Saddam Hussein is planning an attack on the United States?

PAUL: No, I see nothing imminent. He doesn't have an air force. He doesn't have a navy. He can't even shoot down … he didn't shoot one of our airplanes down in twelve years … and his army is 1/3 of what it was twelve years ago. So, you know, this fictions that he's Hitler and that he's about to take over the Middle East … I think it's a stretch.

Paul thinks that the Iraqi air force, navy and army are the biggest Iraqi dangers to the U.S. With his above answer to Moyers question, he avoids completely the dangers of WMD and terrorism.

18 posted on 10/04/2002 9:36:26 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: MissAmericanPie
How disappointing I thought Ron Paul had more sense than this.

And I had thought you did, but no longer.

19 posted on 10/04/2002 9:38:27 PM PDT by logician2u
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To: Askel5
I'll have to find a bit of Tolkien that's nagging at me for that tomorrow. Adieu.
20 posted on 10/04/2002 9:41:19 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: FreeReign
Paul is not a Conservative

I fail to see what is not conservative in any of the positions he's taken here.

Our anxiousness to "nation-build" in Iraq and "liberate" the Iraqis smacks of the Clintonqesque "MORAL WAR" we waged in Serbia.

This is not too surprising, given the fact that great thinkers and strategists such as Brzezinski were absolute in their assertion that "in a microcosm [Kosovo] is a real test case of what the world is about to be"

Perhaps it is unfortunate that we allowed the Mad Bomber of Sudan to set the standard for a policy of "preemptive" strikes based on whatever feeling struck the Executive branch (which branch, by the way, is now possessed of the ability to summarily execute anyone -- at home or abroad -- it "feels" is a terrorist).

Perhaps we should have paid closer attention to the likes of Keyes who hearkened to the Founders and their own example of a just, properly declared and morally founded statement of one's intent to incur bloodshed:


In the great documents that our Founders used to justify their willingness even to go to war in order to assert their independence. I think we ought to take that very seriously because – at least in those days, I don't know about now, I think we're kind of … we've gotten really careless about wars these days, as some events, I think, even in recent times have proven.

And we go to war maybe without understanding what we ought to understand. Every time you go to war, you know -- a people like ourselves -- even if that war is conducted by others, even when it's conducted by a means where you're flying high up in the air and dropping bombs on people you don't even see and folks die as a result …

I hope we still understand that each and every one of us who has an opportunity to participate as part of the sovereign body of the people in this country: we are responsible for every life that is taken by America in war.

And we had better be awfully sure that what we're doing has a solid moral ground or we will stand before God bearing the stain and weight of every life taken in injustice that we did not oppose.

And I think that it's why our founders, being that they were – many of them, most of them, almost all of them, in fact – people of conscience and faith, felt that before you risked war, you better justify what you're doing in moral terms. You've got to state the moral premises and the moral principles that inform your heart.

And that's what they did in our Declaration of Independence. It's a statement of the moral justification of that assertion of independence at the risk of war. And, in doing what they did, they set forth the basic moral principles that then informed the later deliberations that led to our Constitution and are the practical foundation of our liberty.

And so those words in the Declaration of Independence – "All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" -- are the basic premise of everything that, as a people, we claim to hold dear. Self-government and rights and due process and liberty and all these other unique hallmarks of the American way of life, they rest on that premise and that premise alone.

Alan Keyes


21 posted on 10/04/2002 9:44:13 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: secretagent
Paul would call for an end to all U.S. funding of Israel, I believe, along with an end to U.S. funding of Egypt and the PLO via the U.N. Israel might collapse without U.S. welfare, and then pose no counter to Saddam.

I'm certainly a big fan of Paul's perpetual excoriation of our entangling alliances with the UN.

Can you source his stand on the funding of Israel?

22 posted on 10/04/2002 9:45:36 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: FreeReign
. . he avoids completely the dangers of WMD and terrorism.

Just as you avoid the danger of initiating a war against another sovereign nation. No matter how much we have been trained to hate Saddam Hussein, does he even compare to Hitler? To Mao? To Samoza, fer crysakes?

This war is all about geography, not human rights or democracy or terrorism or any other excuse that might be thrown up. Just as the last (unfinished) war was not all about jobs, jobs, jobs.

It's about oil.

23 posted on 10/04/2002 9:46:12 PM PDT by logician2u
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To: FreeReign
Paul liked when Israel used a "pre-emptive" strike.

He may even have approved of Reagan's strike against Moamar Ghadafi, for all I know.

The fact remains that Israel had the "DEFENSIVE" posture necessary to wage a Just War and obligated itself to exactly that offense necessary to remove the threat and "win" the objective it set out to meet.

We are not meeting that model.

24 posted on 10/04/2002 9:48:23 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5; Jeff Head; muggs; chuck allen; the irate magistrate; Michael Gallutia; Deb; don bell
This is good, an excellent post.

I only caught bits and pieces of Ron Paul this evening, but his words and principles are spot on.
25 posted on 10/04/2002 9:50:07 PM PDT by Fred Mertz
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To: Forgiven_Sinner
I know you don't want to embarrass yourself by holding up our pummeling of a third-world nation as exemplary use of ordnance.

They are giving aid and comfort to our enemies.

Good point. In the current issue of Arab-Asian Affairs (edited by Christopher Story, publisher of "Perestroika Deception", "New Lies For Old", "Red Cocaine" and "The European Collective"), he addresses just this prong of the new 33-page policy statement on "preemptive strikes" penned by Ms. Rice:


[the policy states] that "we will not hesitate to act along, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting pre-emptively."

Terrorism would be fought by "convincing or compelling states to accept their sovereign responsibilities."

However, the document had nothing at all to say about the consistency of this freewheeling policy. What about Cuba, on the territory of which the KGB first began training international terrorists outside Europe in 1966? What about Ireland, which has callously harboured the IRA and its controlled splinter groups of terror-revolutionaries for three decades, knowingly allowing the Soviet GRU controllers of the IRA to use Shannon airport as their uninspected drop shipment center for weaponry and personnel?

And what about exerting pressure on Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, himself, given his Government's "politically correct" and laid-back attitude towards the intolerable presence of Islamic centers where terrorism is glorified and revolutionaries are trained? The new "line" is riddled with inconsistencies and hypocrisy (of which Mr. Blair does not have a complete monopoly in this context).


I think those are excellent "for starters" questions. The true measure of any man's integrity is his ability to CONSISTENTLY defend and act in comport with his convictions.

Are we to apply this new policy consistently? Will respect the rights of other nations to adopt our "moral" stand?

26 posted on 10/04/2002 9:55:00 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: logician2u
. . he avoids completely the dangers of WMD and terrorism.

Just as you avoid the danger of initiating a war against another sovereign nation.

Going to war is dangerous -- I never said otherwise.

Anyway we agree that Paul does indeed avoid completely the dangers of WMD and terrorism in his answer to Moyers question.

Let's go to the instant replay.

MOYERS: Have you seen or heard anything from the CIA, the Pentagon, the State Department or the White House to suggest that Saddam Hussein is planning an attack on the United States?

PAUL: No, I see nothing imminent. He doesn't have an air force. He doesn't have a navy. He can't even shoot down … he didn't shoot one of our airplanes down in twelve years … and his army is 1/3 of what it was twelve years ago. So, you know, this fictions that he's Hitler and that he's about to take over the Middle East … I think it's a stretch.

27 posted on 10/04/2002 9:56:22 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: logician2u
I object, I don't believe you are thinking this thru. Saddam got his rear handed to him in 1991, he knows better than to invest in troops and equipment again, they got creamed. And we have spy satellites and he knows we can watch a military build up. So the fact that his army and military equipment is kaput has no bearing on anything. His entire thrust will be towards weapons of mass destruction now.

He will want a small mobile army that can deliver the goods, scuds, surface to air missiles, etc. It's what you would do if you were in his position and had not given up your ambitions. He learned from his mistakes, now he's taking another route. Or do you want to gamble that all those "palaces" hold is grandma's quilting b's?
28 posted on 10/04/2002 9:58:00 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Askel5
Actually, his stand on foreign aid to Israel is based on the libertarian/classical liberal (i.e. pro-free market) view against ALL "foreign aid" (or as Lord Peter Bauer put it: "government-to-government transfer"). This in no way implies a lack of moral support for Israel, nor a denial of the right of any private organizations, individuals or groups to fund Israel. Government-to-government transfers are nowhere near as effective as direct funding. In the case of Israel, their economy (market liberal to some degree) is far more robust than any of their neighbors. Rest assured that Israel would not collapse without U.S. welfare. In so many ways, they would be better off without US aid and all the strings attached to it.
29 posted on 10/04/2002 9:58:24 PM PDT by austinTparty
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To: MissAmericanPie
How disappointing I thought Ron Paul had more sense than this.

More sense than what?

It's more than we appear to get from most these days. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who suckered me with a bait and switch ... promising one thing and delivering quite another based on some "pragmatic" consideration or "compelling" crisis or need to "play politics".

30 posted on 10/04/2002 9:59:23 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: FreeReign
Paul thinks that the Iraqi air force, navy and army are the biggest Iraqi dangers to the U.S.

Perhaps I'll wait to respond to you again until you've read the piece more closely.

Paul is making the point that there is NO Iraqi navy or air force to speak of, they have not shot down a single plane in the 12 years since we lost the Persian Gulf War and the army is a 1/3 the size it was when we fought them last.

31 posted on 10/04/2002 10:00:48 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
See #28
32 posted on 10/04/2002 10:01:22 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: logician2u
It's about oil.

I would not be so hasty in this assumption, actually.

Oil may be the draw for many "on both sides of the aisle" as Paul so rightly points out but I don't believe it's the ultimate objective of the Russians whose "former satellites" like Bulgaria are only greasing the wheels for our intervention in Iraq.

I believe -- as with Serbia -- we are being used to effect the collectivization of the Middle East's "arc of radical Islam" just as NATO's transformation and inclusion of even Russia subsequent to abandoning its charter or its defensive nature, ended up collectivizing the security system of Europe as a matched set to the Euro economic collective already in place.

33 posted on 10/04/2002 10:03:28 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: austinTparty; MissAmericanPie
Thanks for the great post on Paul's stand re: Israel.

Makes sense to me.

You agree too, Miss Pie?

34 posted on 10/04/2002 10:04:32 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: MissAmericanPie
So the fact that his army and military equipment is kaput has no bearing on anything.

Yes Paul gave us a non sequitor when asked a very important question.

35 posted on 10/04/2002 10:05:29 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Fred Mertz
I've got to go finish the dishes I was doing when I caught the show (this is what I get for being good ...) keep an eye on the thread for me, if you don't mind. I'll be back.

Regards.

36 posted on 10/04/2002 10:05:42 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
While it's in my clipboard ...

Politics are meant to open the door to what theology and philosophy decide upon as a code of right behaviour. "This is the good life," says the thinker; "it leads to happiness and to God." "Very well," says the politician, "we must adopt it and extend it for the benefit of all." The assumption here is that the thinker is a Christian moralist, and the politician is an honest man. It is a bold assumption.

That politics have gone off the Christian standard is all too evident. In fact, having slid away from the ethics of the Gospel, politics now excuse themselves from observing any sort of ethics at all. At one time morality was not a private duty as it is now: it was a public standard. Public and private affairs were integrated; there was a unity. Today there is no such reflex check-up: whatever people do in their own houses as regards social relations is their affair; politics, whether national or international, are run on a basis of expediency.

Religion, for example, may not enter into the questions of public policy.

"It isn't the slightest use applying evangelical principles in our dealings with those who are opposed to us," says the politician, "we wouldn't be understood."

And the awful part of it is that this is true.

Once one side refuses to play, all the others begin to cheat. What used to be at least a recognition of the spiritual realities has been replaced by exclusively material considerations. The only things which count for anything in international relations are power and threat and bribe. The idea of trust between nations is laughable.

Children growing up in the modern world may be excused if they imagine that patriotism's finest expression is the savage bravery of the hater.

For them diplomacy is nothing more than the ability to outwit an opposite number by underhand means. Eventually it must come to this, that a nation's well-being is assessed by the degree to which it has been able to eliminate its rivals, whether in trade or in the field. It is the ugly story of the master race, the Herrenvolk.

The State and the Soul


37 posted on 10/04/2002 10:12:25 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
I agree that this is Ron Pauls stance on Israel. I don't know enough about private donations covering Israel's needs.
But private donations sans government strings and government taxing everyone blind in one eye would be a good thing for Israel and us.

Unfortunately, this is not the world we live in at this moment. So until it changes, we have to go with what we got.
38 posted on 10/04/2002 10:13:22 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Askel5
Perhaps I'll wait to respond to you again until you've read the piece more closely.

Paul is making the point that there is NO Iraqi navy or air force to speak of, they have not shot down a single plane in the 12 years since we lost the Persian Gulf War and the army is a 1/3 the size it was when we fought them last.

Oh yes he is making that point, but he making that point when Moyers asks about the dangers of Sadaam attacking the U.S.

Perhaps we need to replay the exchange in slooow motion for you to read the piece more closely.

MOYERS: Have you seen or heard anything from the CIA, the Pentagon, the State Department or the White House to suggest that Saddam Hussein is planning an attack on the United States?

PAUL: No, I see nothing imminent. He doesn't have an air force. He doesn't have a navy. He can't even shoot down … he didn't shoot one of our airplanes down in twelve years … and his army is 1/3 of what it was twelve years ago. So, you know, this fictions that he's Hitler and that he's about to take over the Middle East … I think it's a stretch.

39 posted on 10/04/2002 10:15:48 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: MissAmericanPie
It is very hard for any of us to imagine being in the position of Saddam Hussein, or any other head of state on either side.

But consider this.

What does Saddam Hussein, or for that matter the Saudis or the Kuwaitis or the other Emirates along the Persian Gulf covet that we have? Our freedom of worship? Our pool of skilled labor? Our weapons of mass destruction, possibly, but not much else.

Just out dollars, so they can continue to live the good life until the wells run dry.

Now, what do Americans covet in that region of the Middle East? Their crime-free cities (made that way by strict enforcement of Islamic Law, outside Iraq)? Their government-provided health-care? Their cuisine?

None of the above -- it's their oil. For all most of us care, the whole Arab population could go poof! and as long as the oil kept flowing everything is A-OK.

Is it in Saddam Hussein's best interest to damage the United States, a major source of his oil revenue as well as, once the embargo is lifted, food and medicine for his population? Of course not. He's a materialist through and through, not a religious extremist like members of Al Qaeda. He likes palaces, pretty girls, western booze and all that too much to go out in a blaze of radiation, which he knows would be the outcome if the scenario you and others imagine were to ever unfold.

There have been plenty of other bad guys since the end of WWII who have been dealt with, usually being deposed by their own people.

Hussein is just not the threat to our country he's made out to be. We have many other potential enemies with not only the will, but the means, that deserve more attention.
40 posted on 10/04/2002 10:33:49 PM PDT by logician2u
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To: MissAmericanPie
Unfortunately, this is not the world we live in at this moment. So until it changes, we have to go with what we got.

I cannot disagree more.

What WE'VE GOT, allegedly, are the moral principles which informed our Declaration and the foundations of individual liberty and justice which framed the Constitution we are now abandoning.

To blame this on "circumstances" is to negate entirely our appreciation of the Self Evident truths on which we must base our "moral" stands, in Word and Deed.

Anything less is to admit defeat at the hands of those who would bring us down to their level.

41 posted on 10/04/2002 10:39:42 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: FreeReign
Oh yes he is making that point, but he making that point when Moyers asks about the dangers of Sadaam attacking the U.S.

Uh ... okay. What does Moyer's framing of the question have to do with the substance of Paul's reply and how is it that the question somehow negates the prong of Just War that is defending against aggression?

42 posted on 10/04/2002 10:41:33 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Paul is spot on, with the sole exception he doesn't consider WMD and sponsorship of terrorism.
43 posted on 10/04/2002 10:45:37 PM PDT by rb22982
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To: Askel5
. . we are being used . .

Now you've gone and changed the subject, Askel.

The radical Islamists would be ROTFLTAO, if that was permitted, knowing that another Arab nation was ripe for the picking thanks to Uncle Sucker.

I'll modify my statement slightly.

For us, it's all about oil.

44 posted on 10/04/2002 10:50:07 PM PDT by logician2u
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To: rb22982
with the sole exception he doesn't consider WMD and sponsorship of terrorism.

But he does ...

Well, I think that President Kennedy gave us a pretty good idea of what we should do. He had to deal with some tough times. As a matter of fact, there [is precedence – he] had to deal with the Soviets. They had 50,000 nuclear warhead and they had tremendous power and they brought them 90 miles off our shore. And not once did we think that confrontation was a good idea. Matter of fact, we always stood strong, had a strong national defense, we worked on containment and we even negotiated.

So, I would say, if we were able to accomplish that with the Soviets, and we've been able to live with the Chinese and put up with so much danger in the world, we oughta be able to handle this guy that … there's no evidence that he has these weapons and that there's no evidence of that … and he hasn’t committed an act of aggression. I would think that if we really wanted to, we could handle him the same way we handled the Soviets.

We "won the cold war".

It was perhaps wrong of me to put "won the Cold War" in quotes but I find it ironic that -- where sponsorship of terrorism and the fomenting of WMD threats by rogue nations to the United States is concerned -- we appear to blythely be relying on the "former Soviets" who were responsible for both.

Clearly, we have not "won the Cold War" if it is we who have substantively changed our profile ... Russia's embrace of the "saving graces of Western Materialism" (particularly where our IMF payments, aid to clean-up their nuclear messes, etc. etc. are concerned ... based on the conceit that a nation still supplying arms to the Chicoms and 49 million dollar contracts to nations like IRAQ is somehow in need of our economic assistance and political appeasement).

This too is Mr. Story's point as regards the CONSISTENCY of the policy we are pursuing.

No one refutes the FACT that the Soviets increased by 1000% their support of the global network of terror in 1964.

No one refutes the FACT that the Soviets were primarily responsible for the organization, funding and sustaining of the terrorist training camps formed in Cuba in the wake of the 1966 Tri-Continental Conference.

It is passing strange that -- based solely on the "apartment bombings", the last of which were proven KGB "tests" -- we managed to BOTH excuse Russia's Mozdok war games in Chechnya as well as find legitimate their alliance with us as a partner in the War against the global terror network THEY conceived, sustained and glorified in up and until the eve of their "abolishing the IMAGE of the enemy" with perestroika's collapse of the evil empire like a cheap umbrella.

I would hate to think that the United States would be operating on Appearances instead of substance and disregard the very real possibility we're being played for fools. I am one who agreed absolutely with Reagan that indeed the Soviets were an Evil Empire. I find it hard to fathom that based on an economic collapse they STILL are milking to this day, that they actually experienced some perceptible metanoia. I don't see it.

Particularly given the neat way were were played to Russia's advantage in the Balkans, I think the question merits further investigation.

45 posted on 10/04/2002 10:58:04 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Well, the Soviets are also somewhat rational, the radical Islams have shown time and time again they aren't. If Saddam thinks he's going down, he'll probably use any Ace he is holding. The soviets and ourselves knew that if one bombed the other, we could destroy each other several times over. In the case of Al-Queda and Saddam, they feel they're going down anyway.
46 posted on 10/04/2002 11:04:14 PM PDT by rb22982
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To: logician2u
I'm not arguing that we don't have other enemies, but we need to deal with them one at a time. Your leaving out the most important equation in regards to Saddam, all of those leaders over there, from Kuwait to Saudi to Iraq, are caught in the trap of their own making.

In order to stay in power and keep their own people from eating them on toast, they controlled them with fundamentalism and religious zealotry that can just as easily turn on them as us. For years they have pointed away from themselves and towards the "Great Satan" as the reason for their people's woes. As far as the unwashed masses are concerned their only reason for existance is to defeat the Great Satan, and spread Islam for Allah. Any leader backtracking now will have the mob on his case.

In case ya'll are forgetting 9-11. We are just as intent on striking down the populace as the leaders over there, don't kid yourself.
47 posted on 10/04/2002 11:05:01 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: logician2u
For us, it's all about oil.

You bet.

The beauty of this argument being that energy is quite rightly a subject of national interest and national defense.

I don't think that should blind us to the fact it's possible our "national interests" are causing us not only to squander our moral capital but entangle us in alliances and obligations that will not bear the fruit for which we're hoping.

I think it strange that -- even as we throw all caution to the winds where ready access to and extraction of foreign oil is concerned -- at home we appear bent on destroying utterly our ability to make use of our own reserves through the gamut of environmentalist legislation and prohibitions to offshore drilling as exacerbated by crises like the Valdez.

While it might be a case of exhausting others' oil before our own, it's possible that in the process of asserting our rights to others' resources, we may not end up preserving our own nation long enough to enjoy our long-range planning in this regard.

48 posted on 10/04/2002 11:05:38 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
I know you don't want to embarrass yourself by holding up our pummeling of a third-world nation as exemplary use of ordenance.

I think you misunderstand my comment--I was referring to our accurracy in our military as meeting the "Just War" requirement that the war solution isn't worse than leaving the status quo. And, of course, success against a 3rd world country applies well to Iraq.

Regarding giving aid and comfort to our enemies, to my knowledge, the IRA is not currently allied with the al Qaeda. If it is, we'll get them, either with the help of Ireland or without.

Cuba has been opposed by the US for almost 50 years, through a blockade and sanctions, and has not conducted a successful terrorist action. If they were to harbor al Qaeda anywhere other than Guantanemo Bay, I expect we'd come after them.

The UK, under the surprising Tony Blair, has supported us via intelligence and military forces. Although they have had tolerance toward Islamic centers, it is unlikely these centers are not being monitored by MI.

This is a war. We must fight the enemy wherever he is found. We need consistency in our goal, although the method can and should vary depending upon the circumstances.

49 posted on 10/04/2002 11:07:04 PM PDT by Forgiven_Sinner
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To: Askel5
That all sounds real good, but the fact is, we are taxed to the point there is not much left for "private donations" in any amount that would help float Israel's boat. So we have to go with what we have for now.

Sure I would love a change, but I'm not for putting the cart before the horse. In other words, I'm not for cutting funds to Israel while taxes are so high that private donations would be too small an amount to do any real good.
50 posted on 10/04/2002 11:10:27 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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