In Silicon Valley, some work for just promise of pay (over 200 apply to job w/no pay)

kcal9 ^

[chance33_98]

In Silicon Valley, some work for just promise of pay

Sunday October 06, 2002

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) Silicon Valley's job market has gotten so tough that experienced workers are taking jobs that don't pay any money, just the mere promise of a salary or stock in the companies.

Many of these workers have been unemployed; others are independent consultants looking for clients. They're hired by early-stage start-ups and other companies and are happy, for now, just to have colleagues and something to put on their resumes, the San Jose Mercury News reported Sunday.

``I think it's a sham, and I didn't think so when I started it,'' said Sarah David, an information technology director who agreed twice this year to work at startups for no salary before returning to her consulting practice.

While some call it exploitation, others see it as a return to the valley's entrepreneurial roots.

``I think it's very exciting and it's part of what the valley is all about,'' said Kimberly Wiefling, a product development and business management consultant in Redwood City. ``There's a soup of talent and potential and possibility, and here we have people who finally have time to be creative. When we were working 70 to 80 hours a week, we didn't have time to think.''

Wiefling has several clients, some of whom pay her in cash and others in equity, or a promise of future work if things go well.

It's a far cry from the height of the dot-com boom.

``Back then you worked to get rich. Right now you work to survive, to keep your skills up, to tread water so that when it does turn around, you'll be able to say that you were doing something,'' said Andreas Ramos, chairman of the technical writers group for the Silicon Valley Chapter of the National Writers Union.

When eSelf, a Los Altos-based startup software and services company, advertised for people willing to spend three months getting unpaid training as ``independent contractors'' with the possibility of pay later, it got more than 200 r Desum Des in two days.

``Almost everybody had a very clear understanding that this is really training,'' said Ramesh Ramasubramanian, chief executive of eSelf. ``They didn't have any illusions about getting paid.''

Independent contractors can legally agree to work for free. But many work-for-free arrangements violate the minimum wage law, which does not count stock or the promise of a future salary as pay.

``By flying fast and loose and hoping things take off, you are taking risks,'' said Linda Larson Usoz, an attorney with Coudert Brothers in Palo Alto.

[chance33_98]

When eSelf, a Los Altos-based startup software and services company, advertised for people willing to spend three months getting unpaid training as ``independent contractors'' with the possibility of pay later, it got more than 200 resumes in two days.

Uh....yeah. Maybe if they were training me to be a nuclear weapons tech and launcher I might do it :)

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

See this:

West Coast: $100,000 longshoreman: union wins the global game

[Mike Darancette]

And yet people from other countries are being imported to take what few paying jobs there are.

[Skibane]

Well, if you're unemployed already (with dim prospects for getting a paying job anytime in the immediate future), I can see where there might be some attraction to the trend. Look at it this way: You get to hang out with fellow techies, get an office (or at least a cubicle) to work out of, and access to the job market grapevine/rumor mill. Plus, there's always the faint chance that your "employer" will succed — sort of make the job an adventure.

[brat]

This just shows you how desperate American citizens have become. Sad. Isn't free trade and immigration wonderful?

[Skibane]

"make" = "makes"

[chance33_98]

Sadly, I am envisioning this going on all over the place. Perhaps I can do that with taxes, just tell the government I might pay them someday and until then they can just pretend :)

[Logic_3]

The Old economy:
Work for pay.

The New Economy:
Work without pay but you get stock options

The Post New Economy:
Work without pay and without stock options

Brave New World.

[Logic_3]

"Ramesh Ramasubramanian":
``They didn't have any illusions about getting paid.''

This is not capitalism, this is a sick comment from a sick person in a sick system.

[Logic_3]

So people are suposed to work without having any illusions about getting paid.

My ass.

[Logic_3]

suposed = supposed

[RLK]

In working without pay they are lowering the salary standards market and they will soon be lucky to get janitor's compensation.

[Hemlock]

So people are suposed to work without having any illusions about getting paid.

My ass.

That should be, "My hairy, pimply, stinky, unwashed ass."

[chance33_98]

or better yet, this (note, contains adult language) which is what I tell an employer who offered me such a job.

[Jeff Chandler]

It's not unusual for a startup company to pay programmers in stock and pizza. If the company takes off, the employee/stockholders are rich. Is this what's going on, or are these guys just getting hosed?

[chance33_98]

It sounds more like Amway to me ;) The article is a tad unclear and lacking of some details, but three months without pay seems a bit much. If you have enough in the bank and you are confident you will get it later on then that is one thing, you can afford the risk. But it seems to that someone could simply take advantage of people, use the labor to get money themselves, and then shrug later on and say 'well, I told you ahead of time you might not get any money'.

I certainly hope those engaging in the endeavor has open access to the financials.

[Jeff Chandler]

This would be tough for a seasoned techy to do, but for a guy fresh out of college, or still in college, it would be a good way to build a resume. I have advised several young IT students who are holding down jobs in non-computer fields to forget about making money now, just go get a job in their future field-low pay, volunteer work-anything. Employers want experience, and if they can show that they know how to get things done, they will have a leg up on their fellow grads who have been working at Pizza Hut.

[Jeff Chandler]

I think I ought to move to San Jose and start up a consulting business. I wouldn't need much capital because the people there work for free.

[chance33_98]

Why move? Just put an ad in the paper, tell them they can work from home for you. If you make profit you will share, if not they wasted their time. It like a sales job basically. I will tell a bunch of coders I need a new program, when it is written I will 'hire' some more people to burn the CD's at home and send them out, etc and so on. No office, no payroll, no promises...

[SwordofTruth]

I have advised several young IT students who are holding down jobs in non-computer fields to forget about making money now,...

Why should they forget about making money? If the IT field is not hiring why shouldn't they take a good paying job in another field. To work for low to zero pay is very stupid unless you just like helping other people get rich while you live in a tent. My advice for you is to stop giving your advice to college students who are only going to school to make more money. I doubt most college students will listen to your asinine advice anyway.

[bigeasy_70118]

After my first year of law school, I clerked in the legal department of a Fortune 500 Company. Heading into the summer, I was told I need "firm" experience b/c no legal department would hire me out of law school. The only "firm" job I could find was with my parents' lawyer who told me he wasn't going to pay me but was happy to bill for whatever services I could provide. I worked at night and on weekends for him and did the corporate counsel deal during 9 to 5. I did get the "firm" experience but I really resented the hell out of it.

Fast Forward 6 years. I hired two clerks this summer for my own firm. Both were desperate for the job as "firm experience" is still a resume must. I could have named my price but remembering how pissed off I was when I didn't get paid, I made sure I paid them a going rate and overtime. Nonetheless, both of my clerks have continued to work for me throughout the semester and seem to be very happy. Hiring employees and creating jobs is a fun thing.

[bigeasy_70118]

My advice for you is to stop giving your advice to college students who are only going to school to make more money.

ROFLMAO.

It's amazing how the whole experience thing is force fed down our throats to the point where we think getting paid in experience is like making money.

Here's some adivce, anybody who's worked for any time has some experience. Don't be taken advantage of. Last time I checked, the grocery store only accepts money for food not experience.

[Jeff Chandler]

If a guy really wants to be a programmer, network administrator, etc., then the time to get experience is while they're living at home and have no responsibilites. That makes a lot more sense then flipping burgers to earn money to spend on chrome for their cars, then, upon graduating, showing up at an employer's door, showing him his shiny new degree, and saying "Here I am!". He has to make himself valuable to an employer. In this tight market, a degree alone doesn't mean what it used to mean. Employers want experience.

Now, in spite of the fact that I never mentioned students who are only interested in making money, (not a bad thing, by the way), you felt compelled to insult me based upon your assumption. You are, of course, correct in asserting that such students would be better off working in other fields, but then they might as well save their time and money and forget about the IT degree. The kids I talked to were in their third or fourth years of college and wanted to be programmers. I told them to get entry level jobs with software companies. I said that if they couldn't get a job like that, then they should volunteer for some needy organization, or start a sideline business, something. Anything. If you want to be a programmer, you have to program. Bookwork and little class projects will only get you so far. I think this is good advice for ANY field..

[Jeff Chandler]

I taught myself web design. (I know, it ain't programming, but the principle is the same).  My first job was volunteer work for a church, the next one was for a non-profit organization. Neither one paid a dime. The guy who runs the non-profit happens to own an advertising firm. He likes my work. I am now his exclusive web guy and I make a tidy little sum. Some times you've just got to get your foot in the door.

[chance33_98]

If a guy really wants to be a programmer, network administrator, etc., then the time to get experience is while they're living at home and have no responsibilites

I dropped out of high school, no college, and did basically what you said above. I learned at home, took a $5/hr job as a computer tech when I was 30. Now I am 36 and make about $30/hr.

When I worked in manufacturing I did things that way as well, I took my time at home to learn more about my job. I won awards for suggestions (monetary awards) and improved efficiency. Were it not for an accident I would probably still be with that company.

My point being is that ecucation continues, if you want it to. We can work jobs for money during the day and study at night. I started out helping people I knew with computers for free, and continued helping others for free on the side as it was a good experience. No reason people can't do both - work for free (to educate) and for money (to pay bills).

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

BUMP.

[Jeff Chandler]

Excellent story! My point wasn't that it's okay to allow yourself to be taken advantage of, but rather that students shouldn't count on degrees alone to get ahead. You have to make things happen. You get your butt in the field. If it's all about money, and there's nothing wrong with that, there are other fields which have greater opportunities right now.

I also think that a man shouldn't let bad times stop him from entering a field that he likes. If you can scratch your way in during the down times, you'll soar when things open up.

[Jack Black]

How is this legal? Isn't there minimum wage in CA. Yes, there is.

[chance33_98]

It's california, little makes logical sense there...