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Turin Shroud may be genuine after all
UPI via The Washington Times ^ | 10/9/2002 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

Posted on 10/10/2002 2:14:50 AM PDT by SteveH

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:57:54 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

GURAT, France, Sept. 24 (UPI) -- The Turin Shroud bearing the features of a crucified man may well be the cloth that enveloped the body of Christ, a renowned textile historian told United Press International Tuesday.

Disputing inconclusive carbon-dating tests suggesting the shroud hailed from medieval times, Swiss specialist Mechthild Flury-Lemberg said it could be almost 2,000 years old.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; godsgravesglyphs; shroud; turin
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did not see this posted elsewhere and seems to contain details that are not in other reports
1 posted on 10/10/2002 2:14:50 AM PDT by SteveH
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To: SteveH
I really wish that I knew more about this. My current thinking is that it is a type of painting where a clay statue is made and then covered with paint. The cloth is layed over the statue and then made to conform to the statue with felt hammers. This accounts for the image being only on the surface and the almost photographic nature of the image.

I really wish it were the actual shroud.
2 posted on 10/10/2002 2:36:43 AM PDT by M. T. Cicero II
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To: SteveH
Flury-Lemberg questioned the relevance of findings by other researchers who discovered pollen and dust traceable to the Middle Ages on the cloth.

"Of course it had such particles on it," she said, "after all, the Shroud was exhibited a great deal in those days."

A great deal was made of the pollen and dust traceable to the middle ages as "proof" the shroud was a hoax. Flury-Lemberg's comment was one that should have been made when this "proof" was announced origionally.

But some people will do anything to destroy Christianity.

3 posted on 10/10/2002 2:45:08 AM PDT by Budge
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: SteveH
Check out the info here:

http://www.theshroudofturin.com/
5 posted on 10/10/2002 3:17:53 AM PDT by ovrtaxt
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To: Swordmaker
Pong
6 posted on 10/10/2002 3:20:24 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: skull stomper
Amen!
7 posted on 10/10/2002 3:28:58 AM PDT by mywholebodyisaweapon
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To: ovrtaxt
I think that Barrie Schwartz, who took the photos on that site, also has a shroud site with a lot of scientific information. At least, he used to. If it's still up, it's a great resource.
8 posted on 10/10/2002 3:31:25 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: skull stomper
Well said.
9 posted on 10/10/2002 3:36:12 AM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: SteveH
The Turin Shroud bearing the features of a crucified man may well be the cloth that enveloped the body of Christ, a renowned textile historian told United Press International Tuesday.

Was he there?

10 posted on 10/10/2002 3:47:17 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: Budge
So if the Shroud of Turin is found to be a Middle-Ages hoax--which it almost certainly is--then Christianity is destroyed?

Gee, whatever happened to faith?

11 posted on 10/10/2002 3:48:40 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: skull stomper
Bingo.
12 posted on 10/10/2002 3:49:05 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: Illbay
Gee, whatever happened to faith?

See post #4.

If the Shroud is real, it's a wonderful thing. If the Shroud isn't real, it's a piece of cloth.

But either way, it doesn't change the story.

13 posted on 10/10/2002 3:58:18 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: skull stomper
Thought for the day...
The shroud may prove that Jesus died. We Christians prove that He is alive!
14 posted on 10/10/2002 4:02:23 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: M. T. Cicero II
It is not paint.

Shroud of Turin -- Presentation Update

15 posted on 10/10/2002 4:08:14 AM PDT by RightOnline
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To: Illbay
Now we have a "textile expert" telling us it's Christ on a blanket. Who's next, a sewing expert? The only person who can tell us if it is Christ is Christ. The bible warns of all this there He is there He is crap.
16 posted on 10/10/2002 4:13:25 AM PDT by ALS
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To: kittymyrib; RightOnline
SOT Ping!
17 posted on 10/10/2002 4:14:52 AM PDT by Dubh_Ghlase
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To: SteveH
Thanks for the update on this story. I was quite interested back in 1988 when some people from Los Alamos were involved in the carbon dating of the shroud.
18 posted on 10/10/2002 4:18:03 AM PDT by TiaS
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To: Corin Stormhands
I agree. My understanding of Christianity is that while there are plenty of relics and items floating around Christendom it is not a faith of such items. The true measure of it is what lies in the hearts of each believer. Corinthians 1 ch. 13 sums it up.
19 posted on 10/10/2002 4:18:24 AM PDT by xp38
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To: M. T. Cicero II; Judith Anne
The premier source of at-your-fingertips information on the Shroud is Barrie Schwortz's site www.shroud.com. It contains probably just about every important theory ever devised concerning the Shroud (from every perspective), and tons of papers on the subject, a great many of which I've read. That's the place to go!

Schwortz was a member of the original STURP team investigating the Shroud.

20 posted on 10/10/2002 4:29:53 AM PDT by john in missouri
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To: ALS
I'd be real careful about more or less referring to a bit of important evidence that God just may have left behind for those of us who don't just believe whatever we're told, as "crap."
21 posted on 10/10/2002 4:33:07 AM PDT by john in missouri
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To: Illbay
Gee, whatever happened to faith?
Faith? Who needs that? I've got my eternal security certificate.
22 posted on 10/10/2002 4:33:08 AM PDT by Asclepius
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To: john in missouri
Yes, thanks, that's the guy I was thinking of.
23 posted on 10/10/2002 4:39:43 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: ALS
"Now we have a "textile expert" telling us it's Christ on a blanket. Who's next, a sewing expert? The only person who can tell us if it is Christ is Christ. The bible warns of all this there He is there He is crap. Gosh! You seem SO well informed...
24 posted on 10/10/2002 4:43:38 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Budge
But some people will do anything to destroy Christianity.

Why do scientific theories have to be "Destroying Christianity"???

Scientists offer opinions...You've offered accusations...Not very "Christian" of you...

25 posted on 10/10/2002 4:43:43 AM PDT by Johnny Shear
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To: M. T. Cicero II
If it was hammered, why does the blood not permeate the cloth? The pressure of the hammer would force substances through the cloth itself.
26 posted on 10/10/2002 4:47:02 AM PDT by MHT
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To: M. T. Cicero II
The Discovery channel has done a continuing series about the shroud, its invalidation, and the more recent research since its carbon-dating. Many public libraries have this in their stacks. It is a worthy series which gives a very good background on the shroud.
27 posted on 10/10/2002 4:49:23 AM PDT by MHT
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To: Budge; All
Christianity rests on Christ, and Christ alone...and He will never be destroyed, so there is no need to fear shroud debunkers. Even if it is genuine, it is much less importance than the place Christ holds in our lives...

But for those who are interested, this is an excellent site...

http://www.shroud.com

28 posted on 10/10/2002 5:05:39 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: SteveH
MUCH THANKS. I've been skeptical of a lot of the nay-saying for some time. I agree that faith is faith.

But thankfully, our's is a most rational faith--based on a very long list of solid evidence--not mere skyhooks.

In the coming months and years when reality itself appears to be going through topsy-turvey convolutions defying conception, it will become increasingly crucial to hold onto the hand of The Man from Galilee. Truly His Sheep must know His Voice.

So-called proofs may throw all the rocks of hell at the Resurrection and whatever other foundations of our most Holy Faith as they may find purchase to assault. But He is ever faithful to keep that which we have committed unto Him against That Day--including our very essence, our very selves--our eternal personalities and souls. Even our bodies shall miraculously also experience His Resurrection Life. That should be a fascinating process for those eaten, those cremated and those buried at sea.

Forget seat-belts, saints--This E-ticket ride won't need them. Hallelujah!
29 posted on 10/10/2002 5:08:27 AM PDT by Quix
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To: SteveH
Historian Karlheinz Dietz of Wuerzburg University in Germany shares Flury-Lemberg's doubts of the 1988 carbon-dating results claiming that the cloth was made between 1260 and 1290.

In an interview with the Germany daily, Die Welt, he stated, "If you believe that the cloth hails from the Middle Ages then you must also believe that a man looking exactly like Jesus ... was whipped, crowned with thorns, crucified and then placed on linen imported from the Middle East and sprinkled with aloe and myrrh, and that on top of all he had invented monumental photography."

That's it? That's the rebuttal of the radiocarbon dating? "I don't see how this could have been done, therefore it must have been magic, therefore the radiocarbon dating can simply be disregarded."

<shakes head>

And about him saying "looks exactly like Jesus"...we have no idea what Jesus looked like. I'm partial to Caravaggio's powerful version, myself.

30 posted on 10/10/2002 5:12:10 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: SteveH
In an interview with the Germany daily, Die Welt, he stated, "If you believe that the cloth hails from the Middle Ages then you must also believe that a man looking exactly like Jesus ..

"Looking exactly like Jesus",huh? Exactly how does this "unbiased expert" know what Jesus looked like?

31 posted on 10/10/2002 5:24:09 AM PDT by sneakypete
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To: M. T. Cicero II
I really wish that I knew more about this. My current thinking is that it is a type of painting where a clay statue is made and then covered with paint. The cloth is layed over the statue and then made to conform to the statue with felt hammers. This accounts for the image being only on the surface and the almost photographic nature of the image.

From the site linked above:

No one knows for sure how the images were created. The images are scorch-like, yet not created by heat and are a purely surface phenomenon limited to the crowns of the top fibers. The Shroud is clearly not a painting. There are no signs of penetration; the blood was on the Cloth before the image (an unlikely way for an artist to work); there is no outline (which world-renowned artist Isabel Piczek calls the horizon event of art); there are no brush strokes, no style of any period or directionality; no binders to hold paint; no evidence of paint, dye, ink, chalk creating the images. The Images shows a perfect photo-negativity and 3 Dimensionality. It is not a Vaporgraph or natural result of vapors. Current theories suggest a possible scorch caused light from a miliburst of radiation consistent with the timing of at the Resurrection resulting in a rapid dehydration; oxidation/degradation of linen coloring it a sepia or straw yellow.

Note: some microscopic particles of paint exist on the Shroud, but these do not constitute the image. During the Middle Ages a practice called the "sanctification of paintings" permitted about 50 artists to paint replicas of the Shroud and then lay their paintings over the Shroud to "sanctify" them. This permitted contact transfer of particles which then migrated around the cloth with the folding and rolling of the Shroud when opened for exhibit and closed again afterwards.

32 posted on 10/10/2002 5:46:03 AM PDT by BearCub
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To: All
Oh Ye Of Little Faith

Read Luke 16:19-31 and you will understand why some will never believe.

19Jesus said, "There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed and who lived each day in luxury.

20At his door lay a diseased beggar named Lazarus.

21As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man's table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.

22Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,23and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham.

24"The rich man shouted, `Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.'

25"But Abraham said to him, `Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.26And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us.'

27"Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father's home.28For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'

29"But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.'

30"The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.'

31"But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'"

33 posted on 10/10/2002 5:46:45 AM PDT by Licensed-To-Carry
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To: Physicist
There are other reasons to question the radiocarbon dating. The fire the shroud survived, as well as contamination from times it was less well protected, sould have skewed the results.

Additionally, radiocarbon dating has often been far from accurate, particularly when dealing with hundred os years rather than tens of thousands or more. There have been radiocarbon trials in which a living snail was found to be several hundred years old.
34 posted on 10/10/2002 6:12:48 AM PDT by sharktrager
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To: skull stomper; Illbay
But those who have faith, do not need the shroud to be real,and those with no faith, would never believe the shroud, or the resurrection,is real, even if they were eye witnesses to the event,and carried the shroud back to now, themselves.

But sometimes, in some places, where one least expects it, the preponderance of evidence, combined with the strange turnings of the heart, leads a once unbeliever to see a glimmer of bright light - that shines through all the scum and darkness of our world. Each small thing that so leads may bring a few more into the light. The Shroud of Turin is once such small thing.

35 posted on 10/10/2002 6:47:28 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: xp38; Salvation
The true measure of it is what lies in the hearts of each believer.

Amen dico vobis quia unus vestrum me traditurus est.

36 posted on 10/10/2002 6:53:58 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: SteveH
Of course the Turin Shroud is the shroud of Christ.

Satan would have us all think it isn't.

37 posted on 10/10/2002 6:57:14 AM PDT by Dustbunny
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To: *Catholic_list
bump
38 posted on 10/10/2002 7:04:32 AM PDT by ELS
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To: Physicist
"However, this cloth left a radiant expression on me," Flury-Lemberg told UPI. She made it clear she was not a Roman Catholic but a Lutheran, "but this shroud is not just a Catholic relic but a treasure of all Christendom."

The radio carbon dating of the Shroud material has been called into question in a book published several years ago.

When a substance of organic origin, like a textile fabric, is exposed to the air, over time bacteria grow on its surface. This bacterial layer increases with time. The bacteria eventually deposit a layer of more recent organic material on the textile's surface called "bioplastic". This bioplastic includes contaminant carbon deposits of increasingly more recent origin. Taking a sample of the cloth without removing the bioplastic produces a more recent dating of the textile material than it merits.

At the time the last carbon dating procedure was carried out, the existence of this "bioplastic" was not known. There are now techniques available to remove the contaminant bioplastic before taking the radio-carbon dating. Such a sampling SHOULD produce a much earlier date for the Shroud.

Based on all prior analysis and in light of this new data presented here, the recent pollen data, and the bioplastic issue, the Shroud in all likelihood dates to the time and place of Christ's crucifixition. While it is not possibly to DEFNINITELY prove that this relic is the burial Shroud of Christ, all indications lead me to believe that it probably is.

While Christianity is based on Faith, its always nice to have some historical evidence to substance scripture.
39 posted on 10/10/2002 7:06:07 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: NYer
Ping
40 posted on 10/10/2002 7:07:17 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: SteveH
Your link to the article is no good:

The real link is here:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020924-122802-9689r

41 posted on 10/10/2002 7:18:55 AM PDT by truthandlife
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To: SteveH
Your link to the article is no good:

The real link is here:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020924-122802-9689r

42 posted on 10/10/2002 7:19:50 AM PDT by truthandlife
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To: SteveH
She related she discovered identical forms of weaving and high-quality sewing on textiles found at Masada, the ancient fortress in southeastern Israel. They hailed from the year 73 AD.

According to the Berne scholar, other first-century cloths found in the Red Sea region showed weaving patterns similar to those of the Turin Shroud.

"All these things are mosaics that don't prove anything scientifically," she insisted.


No, but the plot thickens....
43 posted on 10/10/2002 7:24:39 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: john in missouri
You go ahead, I'll be more realistic and go with no rag worshipping.

btw - which god wants us to worship cloth again?
44 posted on 10/10/2002 7:31:37 AM PDT by ALS
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To: Judith Anne
Thank you. Learned it all in the bible. You should give it a whirl...
45 posted on 10/10/2002 7:32:18 AM PDT by ALS
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To: SteveH
The problem here is that "relics" in the middle ages, were often bogus. It was estimated that if you combined all the pieces of wood from the cross that different churches claimed to have, you would have enough material to build a house.

The fact that the Shroud of Turin really has no proper authentication, in the form of history is a problem as well. If Mary took the shroud, it was recorded, and it passed from one hand to the next, it would be much easier to be believed that this is the shroud that Jesus was buried in.

It, of course, is all a matter of faith.

46 posted on 10/10/2002 7:41:49 AM PDT by dogbyte12
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To: Physicist
That's the rebuttal of the radiocarbon dating? "I don't see how this could have been done, therefore it must have been magic, therefore the radiocarbon dating can simply be disregarded

I've often wondered that since the shroud was involved in a fire in the 1500's, that resulted in burning portions of the cloth, whether the carbon based smoke from the building materials involved in the fire could have permeanated the shroud with a few hundred year old wood carbon tracings, thus masking the true date of the underlying cloth.

If, as this article states, spoonfuls of soot were removed from the surface, my thoughts may have some validity.

47 posted on 10/10/2002 7:50:23 AM PDT by aShepard
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To: SteveH
If it was that, test results show it must have occurred no later than 36 hours after the dead man's bloody body had been wrapped in this expensive shroud.

A notable claim with nothing to support it, or even describe it. I hate articles like that.

48 posted on 10/10/2002 7:55:40 AM PDT by lepton
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To: Physicist
The rebbutal of the radiocarbon dating is that the samples included deposited material on the surface - some of which was clearly of much more recent origin than the cloth. The cloth has been handled (and kissed) for hundreds of years - not to mention having water stains in locations from when it caught on fire.

Does not normal Corbon dating sampling take off the surface material before doing a dating - such as taking material from the inside of a tooth, or inside a skull, or from the center of a piece of wood?

49 posted on 10/10/2002 8:03:05 AM PDT by lepton
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To: Physicist
And about him saying "looks exactly like Jesus"...we have no idea what Jesus looked like.

This is certainly a circular argument on the part of the speaker...as the image on the shroud was well known enought that painters have certainly long used the image to derive their view of Christ from it.

50 posted on 10/10/2002 8:04:49 AM PDT by lepton
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