VANITY-Question to Gun Experts re: MD sniper & ballistics records

10/11/02 | me

[finnman69]

Question to FR gun experts:

The anti-gun nuts are going to claim that mandatory ballistics records could have prevented the sniper shootings. How easy is it to change the barrels on weapons like this thereby rendering ballistics records moot?

It seems to me that this would be easy to do.

[finnman69]

Comments and answers will be appreciated.

[spokeshave]

Not too difficult....also can swop out the firing pin and extractor

[eno_]

Moreover, the sniper has no desire to mask the fact that all the killing is done by one person or group of persons. he has no need to swap barrels, etc. And, on top of that, if he is part of a terrorist cell, he may have been supplied with a rifle that was never part of the normal supply chain in the U.S.

[antivenom]

RIGHT...once the GUN is stolen...all the ballistic reports will tell the police is the POINT OF SALE...absoultely NO winning arguement for doing ballistic fingerprinting...

Honest folks use guns for "defensive" purposes...CRIMINALS usually have "underground/stolen" guns...and use them for "offensive" purposes...

Ballistic fingerprinting WON'T work...

[finnman69]

great info...thanks

[Redcloak]

It's quite easy with some guns to swap out the barrel. It's also possible to do things like lapping the barrel or using different ammo to change the "fingerprint" of the gun. Or one could use a sabot round and leave no telltale barrel marks on the bullet at all!

There are several posts addressing the technical aspects of "fingerprinting" guns on this thread

[finnman69]

My question really is in response to a nut asking well if the police had ballistics records they could just go arrest the sniper since they would have his address.

[Concerned]

FINNMAN69 WROTE: "The anti-gun nuts are going to claim that mandatory ballistics records could have prevented the sniper shootings."

Following the U.S. Constitution (which CLEARLY PROHIBITS Congress from making laws which keep people from KEEPING and BEARING arms) would make a tremendous difference.

People who SEE the D.C. Beltway murder could shoot his tires out, fire into the van (and possibly HIT him and/or KILL him by their shot), etc.

Right now, everyone around D.C. are just SITTING DUCKS!!! All because of the RADICAL, LEFT-WING, LIBERAL EXTREMISTS!

[mad_as_he$$]

One day turnaround here. Just send me your barrel, bolt and firing pin. (all legal to mail) and I will return it next day. Guaranteed no "expert" can claim it was same weapon. FWIW I love all of these news people trying to claim that this is a "trained sniper" or "terrorist" what a bunch of BS!!!!!

[WilliamWallace1999]

Yep, he's right about that. The receiver is the portion of the gun that is registered. You can change barrels, extractors, and firing pins legally. These changes would render the ballistics meaningless.

PS---Is anybody else tired of them calling this guy a sniper? He is a murdering assasin, not a trained military shooter. My ten year old daughter can shoot her .223 better than this guy can. Neck shots on deer at 100 yds. are a hell of a lot tougher that body shots on people. Call the guy what he is, a muderous psychopath and leave the marksmanship commentary out of it. My eight year old daughter is just learning to shoot and can do as well as this freak.

nuff said.

WW

[rudypoot]

"Not too difficult....also can swop out the firing pin and extractor."

Hey wait a minute. That would be breaking the law then! /sarcasm

[Joe Brower]

Below is a letter to the editor I just wrote in response to Clarence Page's latest column, "Sniper puts heat on gun lobby". Many such screeds have been published in just the last few days. The drum-beating now focusing on "ballistic fingerprinting" has risen from the dead in the last week due to spate of shootings in the Washington, D.C. area, and the blood dancers are out in force to further their statist agenda.

I encourage others to use my letter as boilerplate to write their own rebuttals. We are indeed engaged in an argument with those who "buy ink by the barrelfull"...

***

October 11, 2002

Letters Editor, [your_local_fishwrap_name_here]

Re: "Sniper puts heat on gun lobby"

Predictably, the series of shootings in the Washington, D.C. area have brought the anti-gun forces back out of hiding. The editorial by Mr. Clarence Page in your 10/11/02 edition, "Sniper puts heat on gun lobby", sadly attempts to capitalize on the cowardly and inhuman acts of one depraved individual.

Mr. Page's absurd hyperbole in referring to a rifle as a "weapon of mass destruction" make it apparent he has received his information from the usual sources at the gun-ban lobby. The "next logical step" of "ballistic fingerprinting" is standard fare from those who repeatedly claim that "just one more law" will somehow make a difference. 20,000-plus laws later, we're still waiting. All that is being advocated here are violations of individual freedoms based on false promises of safety.

"Ballistic fingerprinting" is useless for a few reasons. First, altering the mechanical characteristics of any firearm is indeed a simple matter, and you can be sure that criminals are indeed smart enough to know this. Second, fragments are all that have been recovered of the bullets found, and no worthwhile "fingerprints" can be gathered from mere pieces. Third, in regards to the spent casing found at one scene, this could easily have been picked up at any local shooting range and used to throw law enforcement completely off the trail.

Note also that these shootings have occurred in an area that is subject to some of the most severe firearms restrictions in the country. If simply passing laws were all that is required to ward off criminals, the Washington, D.C. area would be one of the most crime-free places in our nation. Instead, the exact opposite is true. All that has accomplished is to give the shooter a large selection of defenseless victims. The "sniper" knows this. And so does Mr. Page.

[your_name_here]

[dd5339]

Marlyland already has ballistic fingerprinting as a law. It looks like it has done them a great bit of good, (/sarcasm).

A 223 will generally not leave much of a ballistic fingerprint as most rounds will break into so many small pieces it would be next to impossible to get usable ballistic information from it. Varmint rounds are designed to fragment upon impact for one example. If the shooter is using military surplus ammo, (full metal jacket or FMJ for short) there would be a better chance of recovering ballistic information.

The ballistic signature of a barrel can also be altered with some emery cloth and a power drill, (accuracy would go to h*ll). You wouldn't have to worry about changing the firing pin, extractor, and bolt unless the police have an actual piece of fired brass that was used in the commision of the crime.

Just my $0.02

Semper Fi

[itzmygun]

I saw a guy on Fox hold up a picture of three guns he said were common in .223. Of course it had the ar-15, and the Mini-14, but it also had an SKS. I've never seen the SKS in anything but 7.62X39, so I know it's not common. Is there such a thing?

[Blood of Tyrants]

It depends on the particular gun. Barrels on semi-auto and single shot pistols are very easy to change. Rifles are generally much harder. An AR-15 (semi-automatic version of M-16) upper receiver (several parts including barrel) is very easy to replace.

The barrel, extractor (pulls the casing out of the barrel), ejector (throws empty casing away from gun), and firing pin are all just parts that are routinely replaced because of wear, breakage, performance, etc.

[riverrunner]

You don't even have to change any parts few minutes with some bore polish and some find sand paper on the bolt face,extractor and firing pin will change it.

[El Sordo]

Stainless steel bore brushes. Steel wool. Lapping compound. Swap out parts. Burnish the end of the firing pin.

There are lots and lots of very easy ways to do it.

[brbethke]

If it's an AR-15 type rifle, it's very easy to swap barrels. If it's some other type, it's slightly more difficult, but nothing beyond the capability of any average 19th-century blacksmith or garage-shop tinkerer.

"Ballistic fingerprinting" guns is a stalking horse: to make it work you'd have to make it illegal to modify a gun once fingerprinted, which basically means wiping out the entire aftermarket parts and repair business. If you can't repair grandpa's old Springfield -- well, that's one less unregistered gun on the loose, isn't it?

[dd5339]

"but it also had an SKS"

As far as I know, (and I may be wrong) the SKS was NEVER produced in a 223, 7.62*39 only. The AK-74 was produced in a 223 variant however.

Semper Fi

[Vic3O3]

What...you were expecting the media to get ANYTHING right about a firearm?? Never happen...

[jonascord]

A marginally adept hobbyist can turn a .308 SKS into a .223 by the simply expedient of using a plastic or wooden sabot. Remington tried it a few years ago, and while you had a 4,000 ft/sec .223, accuracy fell off dramatically.

A friend of mine once tried loading a .223 sabot in a hot .300 Winchester Magnum. He claims that it didn't work because the centrifical force was so massive that the bullet was flying apart within 100 yards. There were no prints on the paper, and at 200 yards he could easily shoot a 2 inch group with normal loads...

[MichiganConservative]

<[>could just go arrest the sniper since they would have his address.

The sniper is planning these attacks. He would plan for the ballistic fingerprint, as well. He could easily get a stolen gun, alter the gun, or make his own barrel or other parts. You get some metal working tools and blamo, you can make a gun or gun parts.

I just thought: as soon as someone uses a home-made gun or a gun with home-made parts is used in a crime, the media and the gun grabbers will start talking about "gun-grade" metal. They'll say "what could you ever need 'gun-grade' metal for other than making a gun?" It'll never end.

Of course, low-production, hand-made, custom guns cost a lot and it will be stolen, but that will be overlooked.

[verity]

People who SEE the D.C. Beltway murder could shoot his tires out, fire into the van (and possibly HIT him and/or KILL him by their shot), etc.

"Hold My Beer" alert!

[ARCADIA]

You don't have to replace or tune anything. Guns have a long lifespan, and normal wear will change the signature over time. These are not fingerprints. What are you going to do test the guns every week, or just every time the owner cleans his gun?

[taxcontrol]

I'm not trained as a gunsmith but have been trained by the US Army to handle the duties of an Infantry unit armory (mostly paperwork actually - but I digress)

Let's consider three basic types of weapons

Revolvers, Pistols and Rifles

With revolvers, it takes a bit of strength or leverage, vice grip and wrench to replace the barrel on some. Others make it difficult but not impossible.

Pistols - I'm slow and can change the barrel on a .45 in about 60 seconds.

Rifles - well depends. Some rifle barrels are as easy to change as revolver barrels. Some semi-autos require more attention due to the gas operated action that requires the gas tube to be treated with more care and sealed upon replacement.

Another related question would be "How difficult would it be to obtain or manufacture a barrel?"

A decent machinist could make most pistols and revolver barrels. I personally would have a concern that the pressure on the barrel would be rather high and would not trust such a barrel. With rifles, it's a bit more difficult, but the basic means of making the barrel are the same. The pressures within the barrel could be higher and thus would require better steel and no mistakes.

If the individual does not want to manufacture a barrel, they can be purchased from the various parts catalogs or over the Internet. I have not done so myself and do not know the legal paperwork required, though I doubt it would be extensive.

[ArrogantBustard]

Right now, everyone around D.C. are just SITTING DUCKS!!!

Not in Virginia, we aren't. Of course, you still have to see the freak to shoot him.

[norton]

See previous note - entirely legal and possibly necessary.
Extractors break, barrels come in various grades/weight/etc. and firing pins wear....

[Billthedrill]

The others are correct - it depends on the sort of firearm, but for many it's an easy procedure. The term for some aftermarket replacement barrels will give you an idea of how easy this can be - it's "drop-ins." To change the barrel, extractor, and firing pin in an M1911-style .45 ACP is a 5-minute process or under. On an AR-15 it's anywhere from 10 minutes to impossible depending on the model.

[SwinneySwitch]

"a nut asking well if the police had ballistics records they could just go arrest the sniper since they would have his
address."

Reminds me of the kid who asked, why we didn't just keep the FBI's 10 Most Wanted Criminals in jail when we took their pictures?

[Flint]

A. You can go to any law enforcement firing range and pick up .223 spent cartridges by the hat full. How bout you shoot with your .223 and throw down a spent LE cartridge, you then have LE chaising their own tail. Further more if you have aquired a supply that has been shot out of different weapons then every time they pick up a cartridge they get a different finger print.

B. Most of the military semi-auto and full-auto's have quick change barrels. This is so that when you shoot a barrel out, in the field, all you need to do is un-latch the old barrel, give it a half turn, pull it off and stick a new barrel on. You don't need the armory to put your rifle back in service.

C. There are supposed to, now, be 19,000 firearm finger print records available at this time. Not one of those firearms has ever been used in a crime.

[6ppc]

"Ballistic fingerprinting" guns is a stalking horse: to make it work you'd have to make it illegal to modify a gun once fingerprinted, which basically means wiping out the entire aftermarket parts and repair business.

Also wiping out serious target shooting as a sport. I shoot benchrest and go through two new barrels each year. Most BR shooters consider a barrel to be shot out between 1500 and 2000 rounds.

[mushroom]

Five minutes with a rat tooth file and I can change the signature of any weapon.

[rudypoot]

Yes, I know. But if a "fingerprinting for firearms" bill ever got introduced, it would have to address this sort of thing. It's about as intelligent as "fingerprinting" tires on a car.

[6ppc]

Drilling and rifling a barrel requires a lot of specialized equipment. On the other hand, chambering and threading a barrel blank is fairly simple and can be done with a lathe. Some barrels require additional machining (i.e. flats, cutouts and keyways) requiring use of a milling machine.

[wardaddy]

No.

[asformeandformyhouse]

I saw a guy on Fox hold up a picture of three guns he said were common in .223. Of course it had the ar-15, and the Mini-14, but it also had an SKS.

I've never heard of an SKS in .223 either. I also got a kick out of the 'sample' firearms they commonly show on TV. They never show the simple bolt action varmint rifle in .223 (which would be more inclined to better accuracy) or the various single shot rifles and pistols that use the round. This guy is only making shots of 100-150 yards. Any of these could easily do that.

[TC Rider]

But if a "fingerprinting for firearms" bill ever got introduced, it would have to address this sort of thing.

Once they get their ballistic fingerprinting law, they'll wait till the next crank shooter and admit the same flaws we point to now. Then they'll say they need to test the weapons and store them for us at the local armory so they can't be tampered with.

[angry beaver norbert]

Yeah, we'd better break out the waders for the flood of crap the media will let loose now. I saw them holding a parade of rifles across the screen when this madness started, practically everything from popguns with corks to Elephant rifles, saying "it could have been similar..." Oh, please!Everytime some moron proves he/she is one ...
I wonder if anyone has considered it may be an anti-gun extremist gone off the deep end, and out to throw gas on the gun control fire??? Anybody rule it out?

[Beelzebubba]

The case marking "fingerprints" due to firing pin, extractor, etc. are readily made meaningless by a bit of sandpaper, filing, or polishing compound.

The barrel rifling patterns (the fine grain fingerprint on the surfaces) changes over time, or you can buy "fire-lapping" bullets, which have abrasive surfaces, and which polish the inside of the barrel. A couple bucks at the range will polish away any of the old pattern. Then, scrub with a harrd stainless brish, and you will have an entirely new fingerprint.

[mad_as_he$$]

I don't see any reference to AK in .223 (5.56mm) and I have never seen one.

[Fred Mertz]

Excellent letter!

[Squantos]

I thought that MD was one of the seditous states that already required such from manufacturers/jobbers/dealers before a firearm could be sold in their state ??? Sounds like their secret hidden confiscation plan isn't anymore.

Stay Safe !