Hate or Love (Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka visits UNC)

Greeley Tribune OnLine (Greeley, Colorado) ^ | 10/11/02 | Julio Ochoa

[NorCoGOP]

Students at the University of Northern Colorado may have grown closer Thursday despite the presence of one the country’s most controversial anti-homosexual groups.

Members of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., descended on the university, and the students united against them — first while they picketed in front of University Center and then during a public forum.

About 130 students and other members of the community protested two members of the Westboro Church while they picketed on 11th Avenue and 20th Street, UNC police said.

Organizers said another 1,300 community members attended the forum, which pitted the anti-gay activists in a debate with church pastors and a UNC professor.

Some organizers who brought the Westboro group to UNC feared that students wouldn’t be able to contain their anger with the group’s controversial message. However, students at both events conducted themselves peacefully.

“Everybody was able to keep poise and have a great educational debate,” said Clark Callahan, a UNC senior who was instrumental in booking the Westboro group. “I couldn’t have expected any better.”

The message members of Westboro Baptist Church brought to UNC was clear during their picket in front of UNC.

Two sons of Westboro’s Rev. Fred Phelps held florescent signs printed with messages such as, “Thank God for Sept. 11,” “AIDS is God’s Curse” and “God Hates Fags.”

Instead of shouting at the picketers, the students sang songs, such as “Jesus Loves Me,” and “God Bless America.” Some even started chanting “3, 5, 7, 9, we are queer and that is fine.”

Those who opposed the message of the Westboro Church were from all walks of life.

Jessica Williamson, an 18-year-old freshman at UNC, protested in a white shirt with the phrase “Practice Tolerance” written in marker.

Williamson, who said she considers herself a religious person, was appalledby the Phelps’ message.

“I don’t think that preaching God’s word should be negative,” Williamson said. “They are the kind of people that give religion a bad name. Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself. If they are going to be Bible pushers, they need to practice what they preach.”

Others said they came because they wanted to witness a hate group in action.

“I’ve never seen the face of a hate movement, and I wanted to acquaint with that,” said Jade Day, 22. “The biggest importance is that people come and see that these hate groups really do exist so that they’re not lulled into a false sense of security. Our rights are threatened by such vehement groups.”

Later at the forum, religious and university leaders challenged the Phelps brothers on their interpretation of the Bible and whether hate can be justified.

“People are free to take the Bible and interpret it as they wish,” said Mathew Bersagel, a pastor at Our Saviors Lutheran Church in Greeley. “For a religion to somehow wind up in a hateful place, it diminishes people.”

While the pastors agreed that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of the God, they said that does not mean that God hates homosexuals.

“One unifying element in our ministry is that all people have full access to the love and grace of our God,” said Craig Peterson, pastor at Mountain View Community Church in Aurora.

For the most part, the Phelps brothers quoted scriptures from the Bible to justify their prejudice of homosexuals.

When pressed on the issue of hate, Jonathan Phelps said by trying to reform homosexuals, his church is expressing a true form of love.

“It is not hateful to tell you that God hates fags,” Jonathan said. “Any honest teacher will tell you that you can’t go to heaven and live in a gross sin like that.”

For students, such as Matt Hiner, the forum was an educational experience.

Hiner came to the event hating what the Wesboro Baptist Church stood for, he said. But he left with a better understanding of both sides.

“Both sides had really powerful points, which got me thinking about what they had to say,” said Hiner, 18. “In a way, I have more respect for those people because I know what they are thinking and understand their point of view.”

Organizers said they only hoped the event could be so educational.

“We brought a very negative, dangerous group and message in and turned it into something positive,” said Nathan Havey, a member of Students for the Eradication of Ignorance and Intolerance and one of the event’s organizers. “I feel that everyone here reinforced within themselves that the students of UNC are tolerant of race, color, creed, sexual orientation or anything else.”

[KsSunflower]

Thank God for the protest!!! The only thing good about the Phelps protests is that it opens the door for real Christians to step forward and hopefully communicate that God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

When you see the Phelps group, it makes you feel that a Christian is the last thing you would want to be.

[Renatus]

Phelps is clinically insane IMHO. A real lunatic.

[krodriguesdc]

IMHO I disagree with you...

I lived in Kansas for a bit and I learned that Rev. Phelps has a lot of followers, so using your logic I guess they're all lunatics...

In fact, Rev. Phelps is just following the word of the bible - he is living The Word - so again using your logic I guess Jesus was a lunatic for his views on homosexuality, too...

[KsSunflower]

You have got to be kidding me...somehow I can't see Jesus carrying a sign that said that "God hates Fags!". Jesus reserved his strongest words for the religious who felt they were better than everyone else.

Jesus certainly wouldn't approach sinners, for whom he died, in the way that Phelps does.

Oh...I do live in Kansas, about 30 miles from Topeka and Phelps followers are have certainly been led astray!

[AdA$tra]

so using your logic I guess they're all lunatics...

As a life long Topekan I can assure you that the Phelps clan are lunatics. Head lunatic Phred Phelps is a true Phreakshow. The sign I saw them carrying today: THANK GOD FOR 9/11!

[Robert_Paulson2]

The message members of Westboro Baptist Church brought to UNC was clear during their picket in front of UNC.

Two sons of Westboro’s Rev. Fred Phelps held florescent signs printed with messages such as, “Thank God for Sept. 11,” “AIDS is God’s Curse” and “God Hates Fags.”

---

Not in our name sir...
These folks don't represent Jesus Christ.
I know God loves queer folk, even though their lifestyle is actually a deathstyle.

The "jesus loves me" song did more for the gospel, than the God hates queers, slander of God.

[krodriguesdc]

IMHO I am saying that Rev. Phelps can choose to live his life by God's word - which is specific about homosexuality being an abomination - and I respect him for that...

If his view is maniacal to you so be it...

[krodriguesdc]

so you're saying that God loves homosexuals - how come they don't go to heaven?

[AdA$tra]

A Picture is worth 1000 words! Just four blocks from my home. The guy in the cowboy hat is Fred Phelps. Keep in mind Fred is a registered Demoncrat and has run for office as such many times

[Brytani]

They have that sign right on their website.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2002/Thank_God_For_Sept_11_Bush_Ranch_6-15-2002.jpg

How anyone can defend these "people" is beyond me.

[KsSunflower]

You have got to be kidding me!

God doesn't want people to live the homosexual lifestyle because it is sad and unfulfilling. Jesus' LOVES people too much to leave them in their sin, but he loves us into the kingdom.

Telling people that he HATES them certainly isnt' going to encourage them to accept him as savior, which is his ultimate goal.

[Diddle E. Squat]

Help me out here. I can't seem to find the passage where Jesus tossed the woman at the well into the well.

I wonder if Mr. Phelps is familiar with the term, useful idiot.

[krodriguesdc]

IMHO - One thing is for certain - we as humans can't answer with any validity how Jesus truly felt about homosexuality - we can only reason - what we do know for sure though is that Jesus was specifically against homosexuality...

[Robert_Paulson2]

So you are saying God hates sinners? How come he sent Jesus to shed his blood for their sins anyway? Schitzophrenia?

[Neologic]

It is possible for a large number of people to follow a lunatic without being one themselves. Think of the many cults throughout this country- many of the people in them are misguided, lonely and seeking answers.
However, what is more interesting is your statement that Phelps is just following the word of the Bible. The Bible is quite clear in its condemnation of homosexuality but I am unaware of any verses that say all queers will be excluded from heaven even if they are Christians. Now you might say, well if they were truly Christians, then they would not be gay. But by this logic, only the sinless could be truly Christians. The Bible teaches that we are all sinners. Some might sin with homosexuality, others with pornography, but once again, we are all sinners, and in God's eyes, sin is sin.
It might be more interesting to argue that only those who sin but refuse to ask God for forgiveness will be denied heaven, even if they are Christians, but really, how can we make such decisions without looking into someone's heart?
The article states that his children were carrying signs that said things like "Thank God for Sept. 11" and "AIDS: God's Curse on Gays". Do you really think this is a Biblical message? Do you really think this is living The Word? What sort of depraved person could thank God for the deaths of 3000 innocent people? How could their deaths be an example of God's retribution?
I think your comparison of Phelps to Jesus as both living The Word is morally repugnant. Absolutely disgusting. Think about Jesus and the Samaritan woman. This woman was a slut, yet Jesus showed her love. He accepted her, he did NOT accept her sin. The results of this encounter were far more positive than any encounters Phelps has had with gays, I wager.
The God I believe in is perfectly just and perfectly merciful, I trust him to make the right decisions.
By the way, logic, like other sharp tools, can be dangerous if not handled properly. Careful training before use is recommended. ;)

[AdA$tra]

IMHO I am saying that Rev. Phelps can choose to live his life by God's word

If Fred was preaching God's word, he would not be out in front of my church every Sunday before mass calling my wife a lesbian and my children fags. You know nothing of Fred Phelps obviously. He also believes we should abolish property taxes. That does not make him Republican either.

[mhking]

In fact, Rev. Phelps is just following the word of the bible

Sorry - Phelps is way off the deep end. In his mind, everyone from President Bush on down are the "spawn of Satan," and going to Hell. He says that 9/11 was a good thing, and he insists that he's not wrong.

Sorry. Last I checked, Christ didn't walk around casting stones...

[Diddle E. Squat]

God loves every person, and wants every person to accept him and live a godly life. It is the sinner who CHOOSES to turn away from God, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't want the sinner to repent and return to the fold. Ever heard of 'forgiveness'?

Or do you believe that homosexuals are predestined sinners? If they are predestined, why bother protesting them, if we are all predestined?

[Brytani]

Sick people

[jmc813]

so you're saying that God loves homosexuals - how come they don't go to heaven?

How do you know this? It is my understanding that if you accept Christ as your savior, you will go to heaven, regardless of earthly sins.

[LO_IQ]

Rev. Phelps is just following the word of the bible

As far as the homosexual issue, I do agree with Rev Phelps, since it is biblical to condemn it.

The other part about 9-11, I'm not so sure he's right about it.

Anyway, I'm glad you posted your comments, since it seems that many "nice" Christians have not read their own Bibles.

[Gil4]

AMEN!

God hates homosexuality, not homosexuals. Phelps' crew do more to hinder the gospel than help - they are like the Pharisee in Luke 18:11 who "stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector."

The sad thing is, there were people chanting “3, 5, 7, 9, we are queer and that is fine” who thought they were pretty clever - compared to "God Hates Fags", they were - but the truth is being "queer" is not fine. But there's no way they would listen to the members of Westboro Baptist Church now. What would the message be anyway? God hates fags; go to hell.

Here is John 4:7-26 (the woman at the well) in the Westboro Bible (author - Fred Phelps) -  "A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, 'God hates sluts.' (Verses 8 - 26 deleted)

[krodriguesdc]

Im sure you agree - God didn't condone homosexuals/homosexuality - and unless they change their ways they will not be allowed in the Kingdom of Heaven...

the scriptures are explicit about this...

maybe Rev Phelps is implicit in his statements about God hating homosexuals but you and I cannot say with certainty how God truly felt about homosexuals - we do know that homosexuality was an abomination by God's word...

at what point do we say - OK you know it's biblically wrong so why do you persisit in breaking God's word?

[Robert_Paulson2]

Telling people that God almighty HATES them in the light of John 3.16 ... is a bold faced lie.

and we know that "all liars will have their part in the lake of fire"... Revelation 21.8

Looks like this "God hates ....... (fill in the blank with a pet peeve sin of choice)" fella, is gonna split hell wide open right alongside the folks he wants to damn right now...

And folks that rejoice in the events of 9/11, are fellow travelers with the palestinian and taliban "celebrants" who danced in the streets with likeminded whacko religionists... in Islamkazi capitols of the arab street.

Folks that praise ANY God for killing innocents on 9/11 need a visit by the FBI... and need to have their religious "front" for operations seized.

This guy needs a padded cell. I wonder if his crowd is also praising God for the murder of innocents in Washington DC and Maryland too?

[krodriguesdc]

I think Rev Falwell said asomething similar - but he meant it as saying that God has seen our nation as a nation of sinners and this is a sign...

Rev Falwell took a lot of flack for that statement...

IMHO

[Robert_Paulson2]

That photo alone...

DEMANDS arrest and seizure of the Church's property .

and active FBI investigation of the entire congregation...

[krodriguesdc]

what you are saying is that there are no sins for which you can go to hell...

I seriously doubt this...

[AdA$tra]

Here is his latest sign!

[Diddle E. Squat]

at what point do we say - OK you know it's biblically wrong so why do you persisit in breaking God's word?

That message is fine. "Fag dies and God laughs" borders on blasphemy. If he cares for every sparrow in the field, how much more for a prodigal son created in his own image who has gone astray? I don't recall the Bible verse "Prodigal son dies, God laughs", but I do recall the story of the father rejoicing when the prodigal son returns. If he rejoiced upon his return, do you really think the father would have laughed at his death?

[jmc813]

God didn't condone homosexuals/homosexuality - and unless they change their ways they will not be allowed in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Would you please cite the Biblical passage that leads you to this belief?

[AdA$tra]

...investigation of the entire congregation...

The local authorities here in Topeka protect him as much as they fear him. They do not want to be the subject of his weekly faxes. Such and such judge is a fag, so and so lawyer is a fag, officer Smith is fag.....they scurry like rats to get out of their way.

[Brytani]

That photo was taken, according to their web site, in front of Bush's ranch in Crawford, Tx.

[dighton]

Two sons of Westboro’s Rev. Fred Phelps held florescent signs printed with messages such as, “Thank God for Sept. 11,” “AIDS is God’s Curse” and “God Hates Fags.”

Somebody needs a good thrashing, and I don't mean homos.

[Brytani]

Is Phelps still launching his daily attacks against one of the female prosecutors in Topeka? I saw a news report about that a while back, repeated faxes, calling her every name in the book, saying she was cheating on her husband, picketing outside her office and following her home etc. These people are sick.

[AdA$tra]

...so you're saying that God loves homosexuals - how come they don't go to heaven?

So.....I can assume you have been there to check this out. I have no love for homosexuality either, but it is not yours, mine or especially Fred's place to make that call.

[krodriguesdc]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination." (Lev. 18:22)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Lev. 20:13)

Turning to 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 we read: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."

[LO_IQ]

I Corinthians 6.9,10

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

.

[AdA$tra]

Is Phelps still launching his daily attacks against one of the female prosecutors in Topeka?

He did while she was in office. "Bare Butt JoAnne" was the sign of the day then. He is an equal opportunity slanderer. Any priest or minister that preforms a funeral for an AIDS victim are targets as well ANY public figure whether it be Bush or Clinton. He calls the current first lady a whore. What does that make the previous first lady?

[Godel]

“I’ve never seen the face of a hate movement, and I wanted to acquaint with that,” said Jade Day, 22. “The biggest importance is that people come and see that these hate groups really do exist so that they’re not lulled into a false sense of security. Our rights are threatened by such vehement groups.”

Your rights should never be threatened by someone exercising their right to free speech, whether or not their words are distasteful.

[Robert_Paulson2]

"He calls the current first lady a whore."

elaborate...
I don't believe it.

He praises God for the killing of innocents on 911 and calls laura bush a "whxxx?"
Sounds like he needs a visit from the FBI. Must be a relative of osami.

a very evil and dangerous person if what we see and hear about him is true... hmn.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Actually, Rev. Falwell retracted the statement you are referring to.

[Robert_Paulson2]

These folks incite riot and acts of terror against americans they apparently hate... we have our own mullah problems it appears.

[Orual]

They are the kind of people that give religion a bad name.

Amen.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Yes, though fortunately our nutty hate-filled mullah seems to have trouble attracting very many followers.

And anyone who is THIS obsessed with homosexuality has almost certainly got some related issues of his own.

[Britton J Wingfield]

Does he still fly the Iranian flag?

Anyone who pickets funerals like Phelps is subhuman. If that were the grave of anyone I cared about, there would be loose teeth falling to the ground like hail.

[Gil4]

what you are saying is that there are no sins for which you can go to hell...

That's not it - we are just pointing out that "Rev." Phelps is just picking out one pet sin to condemn - I think we'll call it "showing partiality," as in this verse:

James 2:8-13
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.

He also runs afoul of this section - the sexually immoral people that we are to avoid are those who call themselves Christians but continue in the sin without repenting. We are not supposed to judge the sinners outside the church - God says he'll take care of that.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

[krodriguesdc]

Yes - but did he do so because of the pressure that was put upon him? - I don't know...

[jmc813]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination." (Lev. 18:22)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Lev. 20:13)

Turning to 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 we read: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."

Regarding the two passages from Leviticus...These were written long before Christ died for our sins, and in my opinion, as a result, no longer relevant.

Moving on to the I Corinthians passage, do you interperet this as meaning people who give/recieve oral sex with members of the opposite sex, straight guys who enjoy show tunes and have a good sense for interior decorating, alcoholics, people who enjoy a good party, and someone who stole 20 years ago but found Christ while in prison, are all destined for hell?

[sinkspur]

Go to http://www.godhatesfags.com/

You have to be a knuckle-dragger to get low enough to enter the website, however.