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Why the Muslims Misjudged Us
city journal ^ | Winter 2002 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 10/14/2002 4:45:22 AM PDT by dennisw

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To: Neophyte
<< Look how they are battling against the existence of Israel... to the last "palestinian." >>

To the last Jordanian, Egyptian, [The Egyptian terrorist murderer, Arafat, included] Syrian and Lebanese, that is.

Although for three thousand years or so, Palestine's Jewish People were known as Palestinians, the use of the word in the context of its application to the Arab invaders, occupiers and squatters of Greater Israel [Incuding Gaza, Judea and Samaria, that is] -- is rubbish. In that context it is but a Goebellsian, made up-for-media-consumption, word.

51 posted on 10/14/2002 7:39:42 PM PDT by Brian Allen
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To: dennisw
bump
52 posted on 10/14/2002 9:48:16 PM PDT by yianni
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To: dennisw
Until September 11, their ilk had been like fleas on a lazy, plump dog, gnashing their tiny proboscises to gain bloody nourishment or inflict small welts on a distracted host who found them not worth the scratch.

Felicitously put.... Thanks for the post, dennisw.

53 posted on 10/15/2002 7:23:37 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: dennisw
Why the Muslims misjudged us.....


54 posted on 10/15/2002 4:06:43 PM PDT by ppaul
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To: Former Proud Canadian
Yes...all of that is true and still doesn't go far enough.

It should be popularly known that US soldiers always dip their bullets in pork grease before shooting militant Muslims and always bury the militant Muslims slain in pigskins.

They should know that we will destroy their mosques upon translation of broadcast terrorist messages from them day or night no matter who may be within them at the time. Their prayer rugs will go to carpet the quarters of the stalls in which US swine sleep, and hungry wild boar hopped up on steroids will be released in their lands to kill them.

If they seek to use their religion as an excuse for attack, then they must be shown that their religion shall be taken from them...every last graven image.

9-11 burns within me.
55 posted on 10/15/2002 4:44:24 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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Comment #56 Removed by Moderator

To: skull stomper
Glad you like it. It's to the point.
57 posted on 10/15/2002 5:03:31 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: dennisw
bump
58 posted on 10/15/2002 7:50:59 PM PDT by timestax
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To: timestax
and re-BUMP!
59 posted on 10/15/2002 8:54:55 PM PDT by F.J. Mitchell
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To: Maelstrom
They don't use graven images.

However, if we include everything else, we should have it covered.
60 posted on 10/16/2002 4:03:47 AM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
They don't use graven images.
___________________

The Kabba rock they revere and dance around is a pagan idol as far as I'm concerned.
61 posted on 10/16/2002 4:07:16 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: dennisw
Bump for later...JFK
62 posted on 10/16/2002 4:10:02 AM PDT by BADROTOFINGER
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To: dennisw
As I was reading this, I began to wonder if the "tension" in the West between the various Christians religions (or between the various branches of Judaism) hasn't helped lead to the Western acceptance of new ways of looking at things (creativity).

Here in the West, people question their own abstract (religious) beliefs, seeking to be open to the truth. In the Muslim world, people are discouraged from thinking freely or speaking freely or doing things differently than others. They are "forbidden" to seek the truth.

63 posted on 10/16/2002 7:04:29 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: ppaul
Clinton is such a little boy.
64 posted on 10/16/2002 7:13:39 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: dennisw
Values and traditions—not guns, germs, and steel—explain why a tiny Greece of 50,000 square miles crushed a Persia 20 times larger; why Rome, not Carthage, created world government; why Cortés was in Tenochtitl`an, and Montezuma not in Barcelona; why gunpowder in its home in China was a pastime for the elite while, when stolen and brought to Europe, it became a deadly and ever evolving weapon of the masses.

I have to disagree with his historical analysis in an otherwise superb essay. The good guys haven't always won. It isn't clear that Rome was more moral and civilized, by our standards, than was Carthage. It's fairly clear that the barbarian hordes that sacked Rome and moved in to stay were not more enlightened than what they replaced. I'm not prepared to say that the digestion of Tibet by communist China was an inevitable moral triumph. I could go on at length, but you get the picture.

Western culture is morally superior to other cultures, but we shouldn't read into that any kind of historical inevitability. Leave that sort of thing to the Marxists.

65 posted on 10/16/2002 7:30:09 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist
Values and traditions-not guns, germs, and steel-explain......

He's taking a poke at Jared Diamond's materialist theories of history. I take the middle ground.

66 posted on 10/16/2002 8:08:52 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: Maelstrom
Right on, Maelstrom! Their fundamental belief system is completely at odds with the concept of personal freedom and its concomitant individual responsibility.
67 posted on 10/16/2002 9:40:36 AM PDT by MoGalahad
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To: dennisw
Thanks for the posting!
68 posted on 10/16/2002 3:45:38 PM PDT by eddiespaghetti
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To: MissAmericanPie
. Socialist/liberals world wide are so crazy as to think they can negotiate with people like this. It's beyond their mental capacity to grasp that they have finally come nose to nose with the ultimate in diversity.

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!
69 posted on 10/16/2002 3:54:12 PM PDT by eddiespaghetti
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To: dennisw
Expect soon a host of muslim mullahs decrying the acts of as they will say "some"....(((( BUZZZ))))
Too late.....too little .... protesting too much by then..
70 posted on 10/16/2002 4:10:48 PM PDT by hosepipe
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To: Faraday
I was going to comment on VDH's slam-dunking of Diamond, but you beat me to it!

Guns, Germs and Steel was a good and thought-provoking read, but in the end it tried to attribute too much to a limited number of factors. Diamond begins with an a priori position and shores it up as best he can (and as he is a good writer and imaginative guy, that is surprizingly well). But in the end it's still BS. d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

71 posted on 10/16/2002 9:41:38 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: dennisw
Good read bump.
72 posted on 10/17/2002 6:59:17 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: syriacus
Clinton is such a little boy

Please, you give him way too much credit, I have a little boy who has more morality in his little finger than Clinton will ever possess in his entire life. Clinton is ooze, pond scum, evil incarnate. He is not worthy of licking clean my dogs food bowl.

73 posted on 10/17/2002 7:34:31 AM PDT by PLOM...NOT!
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To: PLOM...NOT!
You are right, of course.

I stand corrected.

Please accept my sincerest apologies to you and to your son.

74 posted on 10/17/2002 8:16:59 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: Chi-townChief
Thank you for posting this very articulate and thoughtful article.
75 posted on 10/17/2002 6:58:41 PM PDT by semaj
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To: dennisw
"Thank you for posting this very articulate and thoughtful article."

That was supposed to be delivered to you.

76 posted on 10/17/2002 7:19:16 PM PDT by semaj
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To: ppaul
bttt
77 posted on 10/20/2002 11:34:36 AM PDT by timestax
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To: dennisw
This was written in Febuary 2002 and posted back then. I re-posted it because it is still very good and will be for a long time.

Bump.

78 posted on 11/04/2002 8:43:40 AM PST by xJones
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To: dennisw
btttttttttttttttt
79 posted on 01/14/2003 5:01:46 AM PST by dennisw (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: Faraday
Hanson makes clear what divides our views and politics are not the result of accidents of geography (as Jared Diamond hypothesizes in Guns, Germs, and Steel), but result from the underlying culture of the people.

Culture doesn’t develop in a vacuum. In order to develop great institutions, or culture at all, one needs the surpluses gained through accidents of geography. Hanson’s article wasn’t bad but it’s clear he never read Diamond’s book. Guns Germs and Steel focused on the environmental factors that allowed men to create cultures and not the cultures themselves. It is a groundbreaking text.

(The left hates this argument because they believe holding cultures responsible for backwardness is racist; there must be some "objective," external-factor explanation.)

Many leftists don’t consider such arguments racist but rather elitist. The powerful ascribe virtue as the chief determinant of their success because they want prestige in addition to power. It is often circumstances that allow virtue to take root.

80 posted on 01/14/2003 6:42:32 AM PST by Gerfang
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To: Gerfang
I disagree. Of course, "culture does not exist in a vacuum," and neither does anything else. The issue is, in general, what gives rise to (what is key in) societal advancement. Surpluses have been generated in most geographic regions. GGS provides a post hoc rationalization for the limitations of certain cultures. Though not a historian, I believe there are numerous examples where cultural changes (sometimes imposed from without) radically changed a society for the better, while the "environment" was constant. Similarly, societies with very different levels of cultural/social attainment can reside in adjacent geographical region. Diamond's geographic determinism fails the same test as Marx's economic determinism.
81 posted on 01/14/2003 5:14:38 PM PST by Faraday
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I'm going to save this and send it out again whe we attack Iraq in 2008. (or 2007, if we are able to mobilize quickly)
82 posted on 01/14/2003 5:22:36 PM PST by KneelBeforeZod
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To: Faraday
I disagree. Of course, "culture does not exist in a vacuum," and neither does anything else.

So what caused the Greeks to develop their particular culture? Diamond’s hypothesis is that civilization is accelerated by the availability of useful, domestic-able plants and animals and a geography suited for the transmission of the plants and animals over a large distance. I find this argument compelling

The issue is, in general, what gives rise to (what is key in) societal advancement.

Diamond doesn’t really entertain why one civilization in a geographic region might out compete another. I would readily agree that cultural differences play an important role in this competition. Diamond is strongest when he discusses 1st causes.

Surpluses have been generated in most geographic regions. GGS provides a post hoc rationalization for the limitations of certain cultures.

I disagree. There are vast swaths of the Earth that can only support subsistence level hunting and gathering without domestic plants and animals. Until such items are imported there is no surplus, and thus no ability to develop a culture. One of Diamond’s better examples is the Bantu expansion, where the introduction of Cattle allowed one group of people to dominate their neighbors and begin the development of Kingdom level civilizations.

Though not a historian, I believe there are numerous examples where cultural changes (sometimes imposed from without) radically changed a society for the better, while the "environment" was constant.

I would agree and transfer of ideas is addressed in the book. But what is the mechanism by which those cultures developed? How did the Mediterranean and Chinese peoples develop the “right” cultures in the 1st place? Was it simply luck? What’s your explanation for this phenomenon? I think you are expecting the book to address other questions than the author’s intent. Guns, Germs, and Steel was not written as a final explanation why and how civilization developed, but Diamond adds some important pieces to the puzzle.

83 posted on 01/15/2003 7:12:56 AM PST by Gerfang
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; george76; ...
Note: this topic is from 2002.
...a neighborly bit of advice for our Islamic friends and their spokesmen abroad: topple your pillars of ignorance and the edifice of your anti-Americanism. Try to seek difficult answers from within to even more difficult questions without. Do not blame others for problems that are largely self-created or seek solutions over here when your answers are mostly at home. Please, think hard about what you are saying and writing about the deaths of thousands of Americans and your relationship with the United States. America has been a friend more often than not to you. But now you are on the verge of turning its people -- who create, not follow, government -- into an enemy: a very angry and powerful enemy that may be yours for a long, long time to come.

84 posted on 09/06/2008 11:41:35 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile hasn't been updated since Friday, May 30, 2008)
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