What if an alQaeda Cell is working in teams? (Vanity)

[Maceman]

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that an alQaeda cell is conducting a sniper operation carried our by two or three two-man teams. Such as strategy would have many advantage for alQaeda:

* It would confound the police, and make their job geometrically more difficult.

* Conflicting witness reports (since the witnesses are seeing different teams) would keep law enforcement scrambling and chasing false leads for a long time.

* It would create a climate of terror in the population.

* It would cause economic dislocation as people curtail their activities to the greatest extent possible.

* The teams could stay local, thereby remaining in their comfort zones.

* The team could operate for a long time -- operating at any pace it wants including going dormant for a time.

* It would be a great percursor to a larger attack, in terms of softening up the public and diverting law enforcement resources.

* From all accounts, the shooter(s) need not have a lot of training to operate at their current skill levels.

* The odds of not getting caught appear high, which means that you don't need to recruit suicide bombers. I have read reports that al Qaedas suicide bombers are mostly dim bulbs. Moreover, telling someone they probably won't die HAS to be an easier recruitment pitch.

[Maceman]

What do all of you think?

[sharktrager]

One question, why would the teams share one rifle? Meeting with one another for the exchange would virtually eliminate the advantage of seperate teams.

[Destructor]

Exactly! You nailed it. Get a gun if you don't already own one.

[iranger]

Doah!!!....there goes that theory...

[Maceman]

I am not a gun owner. But my understanding is that they have merely identified the type of bullet, not the actual firearm.

Am I wrong.

[Quix]

I've wondered about that.

Sharing one rifle would not be that difficult.

[LouD]

Might be one shooter, with a team to provide the logistical and operational support (casing locations, procuring vehicles, spotting, etc)

[Ciexyz]

I also thought these attacks are a team effort. The police are stopping white vans and the drivers are clean. Maybe the snipers are switching vehicles after the killings to facilitate their getaway. Or maybe a second team drives away at a great speed from the crime scene, but this is a diversion vehicle that gets the attention of spectators.

[Rivothead]

Every firearm leaves it own fingerprint on ever bullet fired thru it. The rifling makes distinct marks in the laed of every round fired. They know it's the same gun.

[Rivothead]

Every firearm leaves it own fingerprint on ever bullet fired thru it. The rifling makes distinct marks in the lead of every round fired. They know it's the same gun.

[Rivothead]

Every firearm leaves it own fingerprint on ever bullet fired thru it. The rifling makes distinct marks in the lead of every round fired. They know it's the same gun.

[Ciexyz]

Fox News last nite reported an eyewitness as identifying the van driver as an olive-skinned male. But this info isn't being repeated today.

[Rivothead]

Sorry about that it's been awhile

[Maceman]

Sharing one rifle would not be that difficult.

It would confuse the police and the courts for a long time. Imagine being a presecutor trying to make the conspiracy case with one murder weapon.

[Robert_Paulson2]

They did not explicitly SAY it was the same gun. For the first five kills, they thought it might be two, if you remember.

We got a tag team, and they are terrorist militaries. The pentagon has been called in.

It may not even be a rifle. It may be a single shot .223 hand gun... easy to carry and hide. It may be several f them.

we are not being told.
we don't KNOW it's a AR anything...

We will though, and soon.
With military special ops being deployed. This may come to a head real soon.

[Maceman]

Every firearm leaves it own fingerprint on ever bullet fired thru it. The rifling makes distinct marks in the laed of every round fired. They know it's the same gun.

Gun toting freepers tell me that it is easy to alter the weaopn to change the distinctivb fingerprint. Do we know for a fact that they all have the same fingerprint?

[Ciexyz]

Shep Smith on Fox News just reported that an eyewitness reported the shooter as "a man in a blue sweater". Sheesh, don't insult my intelligence. Is this a code word that suggests the shooter is a minority? They're not telling us anything about the person himself.

[bankwalker]

What do all of you think?

I think what you think, and have thought so for several days now.

However, just because great minds like us think alike, it doesn't make it true.

Speculating in a case like this can be dangerous.

[luckystarmom]

I've thought about this also. I think it could be a group of people going out and doing the shooting. A different pair each time would be very confusing.

Time hopefully will tell.

[Robert_Paulson2]

I think you are right on.
I don't think there is one shooter.
I heard two different guns touted from day three or so.
It's a cell. Or a team of two cells.

Somebody is swapping the van at a drop site near the hits. A clean driver, probably a female is taking the hot van... and the hitter could be driving away in a VW... with the piece he used to do the kill.

an occasional drop of a spent cartridge or two from another .223 gun, would be typical use of "misdirection" as is the van. this is coordinated, this is concise, there are collaborators. they are trained... it's a cell, of six, or two of twelve...

and they are shutting us down, right in DC...
and the citizen soldiers in the region, are clearly not prepared and unarmed in any way for the conflict.

the battlefield for the war on terror is HERE.

[ASA Vet]

Fairfax County Police Chief Manger said,

"Ballistic evidence has conclusively linked this case to the other murders in the area."

[Robert_Paulson2]

we know the sweater color, but not the hair color, the skin color, facial hair, or weight, height and build?

c'mon LEOS... tell us who is trying to kill us all. tell us what he looks like.

[MickMan51]

it seems to me that an alQaeda cell is conducting a sniper operation carried our by two or three two-man teams

I think that you are right on track.

[Maceman]

Fairfax County Police Chief Manger said, "Ballistic evidence has conclusively linked this case to the other murders in the area."

That statement could simply mean that the shootings are all done using the same type of ammunition.

[MickMan51]

why would the teams share one rifle

I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone has established that the exact same rifle was used in all these killings. Same type, sure, but is anyone really saying "same rifle" especially since fragments is all they are getting.

[BigBobber]

This is plausible.

They may be using more than one rifle. Drop off the most recently used rifle at a safe cache, switch vehicles, and blend in with the traffic. Go back later when the heat is off to pick up the weapon.

[Rivothead]

You ever try to make a 100 yard shot with a handgun? Appearantly you are ignorant to the use of firearms.

[Physicist]

Sharing one rifle would not be that difficult.

It wouldn't, but what advantage is gained by having multiple people using the same weapon?

What features of these attacks are supposed to be explained by the multiple gunman theory?

[BigBobber]

I don't think they want to play their hand all at once. They view this as a long-term war of attrition. Large scale attacks will cause a crackdown on ME types and make it harder for them to operate in the U.S.

[glock rocks]

i'm not speculating. not enough info yet. however

isn't it frightening that someone with a twenty cent bullet could shut down every escape route out of DC?

[BigBobber]

What features of these attacks are supposed to be explained by the multiple gunman theory?

Mainly the fact that two different vehicles have been identified by multiple witnesses and LE has released "sketches" of both vehicles.

I suppose it could be one guy with more than one vehicle. Maybe he gets the vehicles from a carpool?

[Robert_Paulson2]

apparently I am not ignorant....

we have several at the shooting range who target with .223 single shot handguns all the time at 100 yards...

all it takes is a scope to shoot a five inch spread the first day out... I watched my son do it.

[Rivothead]

100 yard shots with a handgun a very unlikely

[Rivothead]

I know shooting instructors for the F.B.I. that would completely dissagree with that.

[BigBobber]

isn't it frightening that someone with a twenty cent bullet could shut down every escape route out of DC?

Excellent point. Is this why the shootings occur often during rush hour?

I think the same thing every time someone going through a checkpoint at the airport can cause kneejerk officials to evacuate the entire airport. This creates throngs of people outside the terminal where they could be subject to further attack.

It was reported the terrorists in Bali had a small diversion bomb that did not go off. The idea was to force everyone out in the street with the small bomb, where they would be killed by the second, larger bomb.

[browardchad]

""Ballistic evidence has conclusively linked this case to the other murders in the area."

I saw the press conference (and endless others before this). When pressed to explain exactly what "ballistic evidence" they're talking about, LE has dodged. We've seen countless news fillers about the wonders of ballistic forensics, but as many have said on FR, it remains doubtful that the fragments recovered have specifically ID'd the exact weapon. Perhaps the matches are based more on metallurgy analysis than on markings.

[Rivothead]

Ballistics experts have conclusively linked the shooting to the serial killer who has now murdered nine people and wounded two others since Oct. 2, Fairfax County Police Chief Tom Manger said Tuesday morning.


Key word ballistics

[Billthedrill]

100 yard shots with a handgun a very unlikely...

Oh, my, no, especially the sort of handgun commonly chambered for a .223, such as a Thomson Contender or the old Remington XP or even a custom jobby. These typically are scoped and quite capable of 2 MOA or better.

Personally I suspect a carbine, myself. Many of these have extensible stocks and short barrels and would be ideal for vehicle employment - that's what they're designed for. But it could be pretty much anything - I don't know of any .223 rifle or pistol that wouldn't be perfectly adequate at 100 yds if properly maintained and employed by anyone who practiced.

[Robert_Paulson2]

I know a retired army sniper who would disagree with your fbi friends... his favorite target shots are with the .223 single shot...

He regularly shoots a 3-4 inch group with it.
scoped of course.

[toddst]

You ever try to make a 100 yard shot with a handgun? Apparently you are ignorant to the use of firearms.

No I'm not ignorant about handguns and yes I have made football field length shots and you don't want to be the target at 100 yards.

I don't believe the shooters in this situation are using handguns, but they could be. Some are chambered for the .223 cartridge and can (in the right hands) hit man-size targets well past 100 yards.

Check some of the other threads on this subject. It's been discussed by some who are definitely NOT ignorant about long-range handgun use.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Thank you for confirming for rivet what I have also seen...

The .223 is pretty popular for shooting matches.

and it may be a rifle... I don't think we really know yet. we know only what we are being told.

I suspect they would not tell us if there were somehow different .223 rounds being tested. They don't want us to panic about a terrorist cell... that is pretty clear.

The special ops military groups are moving into the arena... I suspect we will get some closure on this sooner rather than later.

Would they have a tendency to not tell us it was a sniper group of trained al qaida, at first, even if they knew it was? Looking for your opinion... not a debate.

[KneelBeforeZod]

it is easy to change the 'fingerprint' of a gun if you know how. But then you still have the new 'fingerprint' on your gun. So unless you throw it away (or maybe add a new barrel then throw that out) it doesn't help much.

And it is just as easy for a forensics expert to CONVINCE A JURY (which is the important thing) that this bullet came from this gun because you can see it was altered in this way...

[Rivothead]

That's Rivot

[ASA Vet]

Key word

Now cut that out, you're assuming words mean things.
How can we go off on tangential rants if you insist on verbal comprehension?

[Robert_Paulson2]

sorry... bad spelling today...
Rivothead.

:-)

[Frohickey]

Every firearm leaves it own fingerprint on ever bullet fired thru it. The rifling makes distinct marks in the lead of every round fired. They know it's the same gun.

Only if the bullet is intact.
Only if the barrel/chamber has not been modified through months or years of use.
Only if the barrel/chamber has not been replaced.
Only if the barrel/chamber has not be intentionally modified.
Only if the bullet has not been intentionally modified prior to firing.
Only if the ammunition has not changed substantially.
Only if normal bullets are used, and not discarding sabot bullets.

Fingerprint makes it sound as if its unique, just like DNA. Its possible for multiple barrels to impart the same markings on bullets.

[snooker]

Do we know it is the same rifle, or just same .223 caliber or maybe we don't even know what the police know.

Personally, I think it is one team with access to multiple vehicles. Like from the jobs of one or more of the team members.

IMHO ...
It is time to look at the obvious, Al Queda. First anthrax, now this. Same source, same aim, terrorize people and show the helplessness of the police/government to prevent.

If it is not, then I will be surprised. But wouldn't care a wit, as long as the perps are caught and burned.

snooker

[Rivothead]

The police already confirmed the ballistics.
Most rounds retrieved from a corpse are intact
They wouldn't have confirmed a ballistics report if there were modifications.
Do some peoiple just argue for the sake of arguing?

[talkswowls]

Rivothead,

Be carful who you call an idiot. You can make 100+ yard shots all day long with this handgun, and it comes in .223 straight from the factory.

http://www.tcarms.com/contpistol/index.html

Now I'm not saying that they are using a Contender, just that it is a possibility.

I agree with the more than one person theory.

I also suspect that the firearm being used is not an AR-15, or even a semi-auto. My reason for this is that the police have a pretty good idea what TYPE (more info than just it is a .223) it is from the shell casing as well as the bullet markings. You can tell that kind of thing, or at least eliminate certain possibilities, by the dimensions of the grooves, twist rates, etc. They could match it up to "ruger" or "colt" or aftermarket this and that. They could see if it is a semi-automatic or not by the extractor marks on the casing. The dimentions of the casing after it has expanded.
These cops on the east coast HATE assult rifles. Did you see them lay them all out on the table for the cameras after like the first shooting? They KNOW that it is not a semi-automatic rifle, because if it was, they could not RESIST the chance to tell everyone that it IS a semi-automatic this, or an assult rifle that. Their silence tells me it is a bolt action long rifle, or a single shot handgun, such as the Contender.
But that is just my theory. I have been wrong before.