MSNBC says AK-74....

MSNBC

[fooman]

MSNBC says that the terrorist used an AK-74. That and the fact the AP witness says that this guy looked Middle Eastern(MSNBC left this out), plus the story about two 'hispanics' at an earlier strike.

Plus the elusivisness and meticuluous planning of this group...

[fooman]

Plus chief moosehead saying to the effect of ' we do not want single out a group of people'

Sounds like the leaders of the investigation are more interested in being PC than catching this guy.

Look, I will be the first to admit that we were profiling the usual serial killer, we would looking for a white boy loser who can't get a date and lives with his mother.

But this case has military feel and coincides with other international terrorist activity.

Al quada may have already claimed responsibility for this in thier release to Al Jaziera TV.

[betty boop]

fooman, did you mean the AK-47? Or the "civilian knock-off," the AR-15?

What is the source of this information? I mean, other than MS-NBC?

[RightWhale]

Why would he use an AK-74 when the AK-47 is so readily available?

[DryFly]

Clearly because the AK-74 is a full 50% more powerful than the AK-47.

[groanup]

The AK-74 is infinitely less traceable.

[section9]

There is a Soviet assault rifle called the AKS-74. I believe that it is the designated follow-on model to the AK-47.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[fooman]

No, they were specific that it WAS NOT AN AK 47.

I am not familiar with the 74, but I think that it is a bat guy gun as the dude on mailcall would say.

I find really weird that liberal AP would run with ME description, but not even Fox is picking up on this.

[xm177e2]

The AK-74 fires 5.45x39mm bullets, which are similar in size and power to the 5.56x45mm rounds fired by the AR-15.

That means the police might have mistaken bullets from an AK-74 for .223, which means some or all of the shootings could have been carried out with an AK-74.

[xm177e2]

Faster bullets = flatter trajectory = easier long range shots

[spunkets]

The Russian 22cal. is the AK-74. It's uncle binny the terrorists favorite play toy.

[The KG9 Kid]

There are "AK-74" rifles chambered in Remington .223 available in the US. They've been available in small numbers for over ten years, both from Chinese and Eastern-European sources.

They're also chambered in the Russian centerfire .22x- caliber cartridge.

[colorado tanker]

I really appreciate the info, but this being MSNBC, isn't it more likely they meant an AK-47 and screwed up?

[section9]

Excuse me. I stand corrected. The AKS-74 is the paratrooper model with folding stock. The AK-74 is the standard Red Army infantry weapon.

One of its characteristics is the orange banana clip. It has been the object of some derision. However, as some posters are pointing out, it's a mite powerful rifle.

But how good is it as a sniping weapon? Well, I guess with a scope, it would be pretty good.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[KsSunflower]

I heard on FOX this afternoon the description of the suspect as white...this didn't make sense when you combine it with the comment that Moose made today about identifying a particular group, etc.

There is definitely a lot more going on than we are being told, however, I have heard numerous reports by various reporters specifically noting, "suspect or suspects", "shooter or shooters", etc. Also, it seemed today that a lot more of the "experts" using plurals when referring to the attacker(s).

[FF578]

Russian weapons have always facinated me, allow me to comment.

The AK-74 is a newer version of the AK-47.

The AK-47 fires a heavy larger round: 7.62 x 39 mm

While reliable the AK-47 had problems with competing with the accuracy of the American Made M-16's and it's 5.56 x 45 MM round (.223) The 5.56 x 45 MM round in the M-16 used a smaller bullet that had a very flat trajectory and great accuracy. It was designed to tumble when it hit flesh and cause a great deal of damage. The AK-74 was developed with the 5.45 x 39MM round to acheive better results with .223 like ammuntion in the old AK-47 design.

This is the Old AK-47 (Notice the difference from the AK-74 above.)

(img src="http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-47_icon.jpg">

All 7.62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifles fire in either semiautomatic or automatic mode and have an effective range of about 300 meters. At full cyclic rate, they can fire about 600 rounds per minute (upto 640 rounds per minute for the AKM), with a practical rate of about 100 rounds per minute fully automatic or 40 rounds per minute semiautomatic. Both the AK and AKM can mount a grenade launcher. Both can have passive image intensifier night sights. Both can function normally after total immersion in mud and water. The fully chromed barrel ensures effective operation even at very low temperatures. The muzzle of either weapon fits into the swiveling firing points of the BMP. Thus, the infantryman can fire the weapon while the vechicle is moving.

Limitations: The most serious drawback to the AK and AKM is the low muzzle velocity (710 meters per second) of the relatively heavy 7.62-mm round. This results in a looping trajectory that requires a clumsy adjustment for accuracy at ranges beyond 300 meters. The barrel overheats quickly when the weapon fires for extended periods, making the weapon hard to handle and occasionally causing a round to explode prematurely in the chamber. The exposed gas cylinder is easily dented, sometimes causing the weapon to malfunction.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

I think they meant AR-51. They also doubt the existance of dog.

[muawiyah]

AK-74 is what the man said. Some models can use the same .223 round being used in these killings.

They did not say AK-47 - they're rather old-fashioned anyway and would require some serious rechambering to make use of the NATO standard round.

[fooman]

Note that MSNBC said that the witness selected the 74 BASED on seeing the terrorist shoot!

[FF578]

Try that again:

AK-47:

[Levine2001]

Could you (or somebody) please explain what this post is about? WHAT terrorist? WHAT incident? WHEN? WHERE? HOW?

Please give some context to you posts...

[fooman]

I saw that too on Fox. Why does the board think Fox is being so PC?

[fooman]

Context : Witness who saw the Home Depot shooting last night picked the AK 74

[Man of the Right]

Every day, it looks more like Abdullah and his spotter/driver Mohammed are the perps and less like Bubba. Unless the perps are observing their holy days on the weekend, either they're 9-to-5ers or Al-Qaeda workers have attained a 40-hour work week. If it's the former, they're probably resident aliens or U.S. citizens.

[spunkets]

Uncle Binny's favorite play toy.

[snooker]

and imagine that ... bin bagged used a AK-74s as a prop when he did his films for use as propaganda.

So the elite Al Queda, ie snipers, use the AK74 which aren't imported into the US. They are full auto weapons so can't be sold here.

I guess the Al Queda types didn't know that importing guns without a license is against the law.

NBC showed a graphic of the AK74 at the 6:30 news. Interesting is when I postulated this a few days back it was foo foo as well, uninformed.

snooker

[Kenton]

I wonder where they got this? MSNBC wouldn't know an AK-74 from a white/tan Chevy-Chrysler-Ford panel van/stepvan/box truck with or without writing on the side and/or a ladder rack.

Somebody must have told them a new gun name they'd never heard of and they thought it sounded cool. With all the crappy contraditory info floating around, they can't even decide what the vehicle looks like, or if the driver(s) are hispanic or islamic.

I seriously doubt that anyone has accurately seen the weapon well enough to make that call. If it was an AK-74, most people would mistake that for an AK-47 anyway, if they were even savvy enough to recognize the outlines of a Kalishnakov.

[FF578]

If a witness picked the AK-74 then they are pretty good with guns. How many of the average sheeple in America are going to be able to tell the above two guns I posted apart?

I would have a tough enough time doing it without getting a good look. As much as any witness possibly could have seen, there is no way that they could know for sure just by sight.

[fooman]

Good for you for thinking this earlier. I am glad this is not bubba.

now, good gun control will mean citizens taking out al quada at the Home Depot!

=)

[FF578]

If the Police knew it was a 5.45 x 39MM round and not an actual .223 this could explain the story.

IT doesn't explain the ATF showing a bunch of AR-15's and HK .223's about a week ago saying "These could be the types of gun the sniper is using."

A .223 is not a 5.45 x 39MM

[fooman]

Good point. Hopefully the curved magazine would distinguish between a hunting rifle and an AR 15. You dont really need to know guns to see this distinguishing feature.

The witness may have THOUGHT that it was a 47, but as the earlier poster pointed out the round fired would have elminated that choice and Whallaaaa!

[mamarainsberry]

If I lived in one of the biggest gun control areas I would have a LOT of gun knowledge from my own collection

[Mr. Lucky]

There is a saying in detective work to the effect of:

If you hear hoof beats, suspect horses.

It could well be that the police called the projectile a .223 because that's what they were familiar with and they were dealing only with fragments, not an intact bullet. And besides, everybody knew it was a demented white military veteran. Where would he get an Ak-74?

[spunkets]

" IT doesn't explain the ATF showing a bunch of AR-15's and HK .223's about a week ago saying "These could be the types of gun the sniper is using"

It explains it perfectly. They are gun grabbers and they're going to milk this for all it's worth.

[FF578]

True.

[narby]

I heard on the radio the other day, the sniper was using a "AK-15". Wonder if I could get one of those?

[betty boop]

Sounds like the leaders of the investigation are more interested in being PC than catching this guy.... But this case has military feel....

I find myself agreeing with you there, fooman. On the basis of a conversation at the local gun club last week....

We had finished up our e-board agenda, and then settled back for a discussion of the breaking events in MD/VA/DC.

Most of us who participated in that discussion are hunters, or (like me) sporting pistol shooters. But on this subject, such folk quickly realized we needed to just shut up and listen to the "resident experts."

Which were V, a retired Special Forces type; S, a federally-licensed firearms dealer and master gunsmith (who knows just about everything pertaining to firearms that can be learned in a single lifetime); and D, a law enforcement officer with the INS who carries for a living.

Just some of the salient points brought out by V, S, and D:

(1) These shootings bear all the hallmarks of a military style operation. There is a regular tactical plan in force, seemingly involving two individuals each time, one the shooter, the other the driver/"spotter".

(2) The firearm(s) used by no means had to be of the class of a "sniper" or "assault" rifle. There are literally thousands of firearms types that can chamber the .223 FMJ round.

(3) The person(s) doing the shooting did not necessarily have to be a skilled marksman at the ranges indicated; nor was a high-powered scope necessary to obtain the "kills" chalked up so far -- IF the shooter was firing from a bench rest, even iron sights would be good enough at the indicated target ranges.

(4) The assumption was that the shooter(s) was firing from within the vehicle -- which would provide both a bench rest to steady the shot, and acoustic attenuation of the report.

Just to make his point, V. told the story of how once-upon-a-time he took his grandmother down to the gun range, and set her up with a FAL carbine firing the .223 FMJ round. At three hundred yards, using iron sights, never having fired a gun in her life, she "took down" a man-size target 3 out of 5 times.

So, I'm thinking we aren't talking so much about skill here, so much as people executing a set, detailed plan with unfailing rigor. Which may involve a variety of vehicles and safe houses short distances away from the scene in which to hide the vehicles. Conceivably, we may be dealing with different shooters and even different firearms.

For whatever it's worth.

[fooman]

LOL

[The KG9 Kid]

There's almost no mistaking an AK profile from any of the former Soviet satellite nations, but there are several non-Commie rifles that look just like an AK from a distance: Valmet 76s, Galil ARMs, South African R4s (AKA "LM-5"), etc.

All of them fire NATO 5.56 (nearly identical to Remington .223) ammunition.

However, all of these rifles except for the Commie-made "AK-74" are uncommon in the US -- even during the public 'Assault Weapons' buying spree of the late 1980s/early 1990s. The South African R4 is almost never seen.

I would expect that if the shooter really is using an "AK-74", that it's a Romanian clone or a recent Russian 'sporterized' import chambered in Remington .223.

It's just my opinion, but I don't think that anyone who's got a fascination with the 'Sniper Culture' would choose an AK-74 for their rifle.

[Iron Eagle]

Fox posted this info in a story hours ago. The headline on their webpage gives NO indication that a witness saw someone possibley "middle-eastern".

I re-posted the story with an amended headline to highlight the info. I got flamed, and then moderator changed my healine. Link went dead.

Here's the link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/769692/posts

My Headline was:

Sniper Witness Identifies two-men, Hispanic, Middle-Eastern.

[spunkets]

One of the witnesses last night was a lady who saw the shooter step out of his Astro, raise the gun, aim, fire, calmly get back into his Astro and drive away. He's been practicing for some time.

[FF578]

It's just my opinion, but I don't think that anyone who's got a fascination with the 'Sniper Culture' would choose an AK-74 for their rifle.

But an arab terrorist (who are not known for their military minds) might. They might want to stick with something they are familar with.

[Shooter 2.5]

Curiouser and curiouser.

[fooman]

Good point. Need to know more about the witness. Fox talking about swarthy dude now!

[The KG9 Kid]

That's just what I'm thinking.

[_Jim]

IT doesn't explain the ATF showing a bunch of AR-15's and HK .223's about a week ago saying "These could be the types of gun the sniper is using."

Call it 'a flush' by the authorities by which this nervy sniper would pushed to provide proof positive of the caliber/weapon he was using " 'cause the BATF boys were just too thick to get it the first time "...

[fooman]

Fox talking about ME dark skinned dudes now.

[jdege]

But how good is it as a sniping weapon?

Not very. Tolerances on the AK are much sloppier than on, say, the M-16.

But "not very" means it'd be good out to 300 meters, or so - sufficient for the current incidents.

[fooman]

If we get a good sketch out there that can focus the search out there that would be awsome.

I have family in the DC area and dont want to see them die because of PC