The Sniper: For shooters

10/15/02 | DrCarl

[DrCarl]

Let's talk about this sniper.

First, the guy is being treated as if he must be a "trained sniper", military, police, etc. Meanwhile, everyone I know can shoot as well as anything I've heard him credited with.

He's shooting a .223 varmint round. The media wonders how he can shoot this round out of a bolt-action rifle without the gun's being seen by others, while showing the public various "assault rifles" as the probable weapon being used.

In fact, Thompson Centre (T/C) makes a contender barrel in .223 that's 14" long. It's a pistol. It is easily carried concealed.

Long range scopes can be fit to the Contender. Would night vision optics be a problem?

Some report a rifle shot having been heard. Others not. Might a silencer be in use?

Could this guy be using a Contender?

[MacDorcha]

plausable and logical, no wonder the media isnt covering that idea...

[demlosers]

Shhhhhh...
Don't say it too loud the gun-grabbers may go after T/C.

[muawiyah]

That's all very good, but NBC says the cops have a witness who identified the weapon as an AK-74!

[facedown]

Could this guy be using a Contender?

Sure, or a Remington XP-100.

[B4Ranch]

They make them all the way up to a 21" barrel and there are numerous methods to dampen the sound. I won't go into them here but it is possible to shoot a .223 with no sound whatsoever.

The reports of sound being heard have convinced me these guys don't know how or else they would do it everytime.

[groanup]

For goodness sake don't let the bedwetters know there is a long range center-fire hand gun.

[Dead Dog]

Short list of known .224 factory loaded and wild cat cartridges. Is it a .223, probably, but I wouldn't get stuck on it.

.219 Donaldson Wasp

.219 Zipper

.219 Zipper Improved

.22 Benchrest

.22 Carbine

.22 CHeeta Mk II

.22 Eargesplitten

.22 Newton

.22 PPC

.22 Waldog

.22 WCF

.22/06 Easling

.22/30-30 Improved

.22/6.5x54

.22-15-60 Stevens

.22-243 Middlestead

.22-250 Remington

.22-250 Remington Imp.

.22-284 Winchester

.22-303 Falcon

.22-303 Sprinter

.22-303 Swift

.22-350 Remington

.220 Jaybird

.220 Russian

.220 Swift

.220 Weatherby

.220 Wotkyns-Wilson

.222 Remington

.222 Remington Magnum

.222 Rimmed

.223 Remington

.224 Clark

.224 R-C Maxi

.224 Stark

.224 Weatherby

.225 Winchester

2R Lovell

5.56x50mm Magnum

5.6x35R

5.6x50R Magnum

5.6x57mm RWS

5.7mm MMJ

[OKSooner]

.22 Hornet?

[MonroeDNA]

What's an AK-74?

[OKSooner]

"For goodness sake don't let the bedwetters know there is a long range center-fire hand gun."

Correction: MIGHT, BUT ONLY THEORETICALLY BE A LONG-RANGE CENTERFIRE HANDGUN.

Know what I mean?

[Delta 21]

This guy (or guys) probly dont have the class or want to spare the expence of a truely high class weapon. Any AR-15 style psuedo-military assault sniper extreeme death gun are a dime a dozen and accurate enough to do this kind of damage with very limited training and practice. ..and its not that hard to evade the cops with a little forthought and planning. Remember the smily face bomber? He got half way across the Country before they caught him and the cops knew who he was befor they arrested him. If this guy (or guys) doesnt want to be caught...(Duh!) its going to be hard to catch him (them). If it is a band of terrorists, trained in urban assault, military tactics and weapons and are highly motivated-- the LA bank robbery that turned full auto will be a walk in the park when these guys are cornered. Im beginning to think that maybe it is a terrorist cell...but I would be cheering the ever vigilant American Hero that witnesses this thug about to cap some one and pulls out his own carry piece and blows him away.

BAMB ! !

Game Over

[FF578]

AK-74

Description: The AK-74 is basically an AKM rechambered and rebored to fire a 5.45-mm cartridge. Externally, it has the same general appearance as the AKM, with two noticable differences. It has a distinctive, two-port muzzle brake, giving it a slightly greater overall length than the AKM. It also has a smooth plastic magazine which is slightly shorter and is curved to a lesser extent than the grooved metal AKM magazine. It uses the same type of bayonet as the AK-series weapons.

There is also a folding stock version, designated AKS-74, which has a Y-shaped tubular stock. The stock has an extremely narrow buttplate, as opposed to the T-shaped, stamped-metal buttstock of the AKMS.

Capabilities: The AK-74 fires 5.45 x 39-mm ball, ball-tracer, and incendiary-tracer rounds. The 5.45-mm round of the AK-74 has a considerably higher muzzle velocity than the 7.62-mm round of the AKM; this eliminates the range-limiting drawback of it predecessor. Like the AKM, the AK-74 has a maximum sight setting of 1,000 meters, but the effective range is 500 meters (versus 300 meters for the AKM).

The muzzle brake of the AK-74 a fluidic device to minimize recoil and muzzle climb. Although the AK-74 is somewhat heavier than the AKM when empty, its loaded weight is slightly less than that of the AKM; this is due primarily to the plastic magazine and its smaller-caliber ammunition. Like the AK and the AKM, the AK-74 can mount a grenade launcher and a passive image intensifier night sight.

Limitations: The gas cylinder, like the cylinders on the AK and AKM, is in a valunerable position; if dented, it may cause weapon mulfunction. The reddish-brown or orange color of the plastic magazine does not lend itself to camouflage.

Remarks: The Soviets fielded the AK-74 in 1974, as indicated by the weapon's designation. The folding-stock AKS-74 was first seen with Soviet airborne troops in November 1977. The Ak-74 is also the basis for other 5.45-mm small arms, including the AKSU-74 submachine gun and the RPK-74 light machine gun.

The following data comes from Janes Infantry Weapons 1995 - 1996.

Cartridge: 5.45 x 39 mm Operation: gas, selective fire Locking: rotating bolt Feed: 30-round plastic box magazine Weight: 3.3 kg unloaded; 3.9 kg loaded Length: 943 mm Barrel: 415 mm Rifling: 4 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 196 mm Sights: fore, post; rear, U-notch Muzzle velocity: 900 m/s Rate of fire: cyclic, 600-650 rds/min Effective range: ----

The AK-74 is a newer version of the AK-47. The AK-47 fires a heavy larger round: 7.62 x 39 mm While reliable the AK-47 had problems with competing with the accuracy of the American Made M-16's and it's 5.56 x 45 MM round (.223) The 5.56 x 45 MM round in the M-16 used a smaller bullet that had a very flat trajectory and great accuracy. It was designed to tumble when it hit flesh and cause a great deal of damage. The AK-74 was developed with the 5.45 x 39MM round to acheive better results with .223 like ammuntion in the old AK-47 design.

[spunkets]

Russian 22cal ver. of AK. Uncle binny's favorite play toy.

[umgud]

Or .224 boat tails shot out of a sabot (ACEL & others).

[OKSooner]

Actually it's a next-generation Soviet Assault Rifle chambered for a high-velocity smallbore (about a .21 caliber, iirc) cartridge comparable to the .223...

But knowing the ignoroids at NBC they probably meant to incite panic with the term "AK-47".

[dts32041]

The following extract comes from US Army Field Manual 100-2-3 - The Soviet Army; Troops Organisation and Equipment published in June 1991. The publication was approved for public release with unlimited distribution (ie may be freely used). The entry provided covered the AK-74 and the AKS-74 military assault rifles.

Description:

The AK-74 is basically an AKM rechambered and rebored to fire a 5.45-mm cartridge. Externally, it has the same general appearance as the AKM, with two noticable differences. It has a distinctive, two-port muzzle brake, giving it a slightly greater overall length than the AKM. It also has a smooth plastic magazine which is slightly shorter and is curved to a lesser extent than the grooved metal AKM magazine. It uses the same type of bayonet as the AK-series weapons.

There is also a folding stock version, designated AKS-74, which has a Y-shaped tubular stock. The stock has an extremely narrow buttplate, as opposed to the T-shaped, stamped-metal buttstock of the AKMS.

Capabilities:

The AK-74 fires 5.45 x 39-mm ball, ball-tracer, and incendiary-tracer rounds. The 5.45-mm round of the AK-74 has a considerably higher muzzle velocity than the 7.62-mm round of the AKM; this eliminates the range-limiting drawback of it predecessor. Like the AKM, the AK-74 has a maximum sight setting of 1,000 meters, but the effective range is 500 meters (versus 300 meters for the AKM).

The muzzle brake of the AK-74 a fluidic device to minimize recoil and muzzle climb. Although the AK-74 is somewhat heavier than the AKM when empty, its loaded weight is slightly less than that of the AKM; this is due primarily to the plastic magazine and its smaller-caliber ammunition. Like the AK and the AKM, the AK-74 can mount a grenade launcher and a passive image intensifier night sight.

Limitations:

The gas cylinder, like the cylinders on the AK and AKM, is in a valunerable position; if dented, it may cause weapon mulfunction. The reddish-brown or orange color of the plastic magazine does not lend itself to camouflage.

Remarks:

The Soviets fielded the AK-74 in 1974, as indicated by the weapon's designation. The folding-stock AKS-74 was first seen with Soviet airborne troops in November 1977. The Ak-74 is also the basis for other 5.45-mm small arms, including the AKSU-74 submachine gun and the RPK-74 light machine gun.


The following data comes from Janes Infantry Weapons 1995 - 1996.

Cartridge: 5.45 x 39 mm Operation: gas, selective fire
Locking: rotating bolt Feed: 30-round plastic box magazine
Weight: 3.3 kg unloaded; 3.9 kg loaded Length: 943 mm
Barrel: 415 mm Rifling: 4 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 196 mm
Sights: fore, post; rear, U-notch Muzzle velocity: 900 m/s
Rate of fire: cyclic, 600-650 rds/min Effective range: ----

[Tailback]

He's not using night vision because all of the victims have been in lit areas. Parking lots with lights or under a gas station roofed area. I doubt this guy has actual sniper training, he'd use familiar stuff from the school if he had the training. (.30 cal or 300 magnum) Possibly using a scope but the shots have all been taken within easy range of standard iron sights. An AR-15 or Mini-14 is probably a good guess as to what he's using, they're both plentiful and not too expensive with lots of accessories, mags, and books available. My guess is a middle eastern sleeper, a whacko anti-war lefty enviroMENTAList, or a pissed off wanna-be specops loser.

[DrCarl]

>Im beginning to think that maybe it is a terrorist cell...

That was my first thought. I've expected this kind of attack from the "terrorists", only I thought it would be more along the lines of a single, suicide shooter on a crowded subway.

He's walking to where he needs to be to get his shot off without anyone seeing a long gun. Ballistics claim they can tell that each shot is from the same gun. If this is so, I assume they know it's a .223 and not a .220 Swift, etc.

I'm starting to think Contender with night vision optics. How many .223 Contender barrels are there out there?

[Eaker]

Here is what FReeper Flyer scored with my stock Glock 27 with a sandbag rest at 50 yards using 10 rounds. Note: the picture only clearly shows the hits in the orange. All 10 rounds would have been torso shots.

I think he could shoot the same pattern with a T/C at 100 ~ 150 yards with little or no practice at all.

Stay safe; stay armed.

[DrCarl]

>Possibly using a scope but the shots have all been taken within easy range of standard iron sights.

He took this last shot in the middle of a large parking lot at 9:15 PM. It was a head shot and the woman had to have been moving. She and her husband were getting into their car.

Me? I can hit a deer size target at 150 yards with open sites and a roundball, but I can barely see 150 yards at night. And at a moving target? Head shot?

Not easy.

[niteowl77]

Someone has probably also necked down the .50 BMG to take a .223 bullet... or tried to.

With a scope and a rest, a Contender can easily hit a crow at two to three times the distance of these murders; it would, though, be a terrible weapon if you need a second round quick. They also make one H of a bang with the 14" and shorter tubes, as I know from experience. Given these ranges, a bobbled shot could get the buttswab(s) identified and/or caught- I'd bet against a single loader, unless there is backup.

[SBprone]

It wouldn't make much sense to procure an AK-74. Simple possession of this full-auto rifle means a long stretch in the slammer for anybody caught with one. I don't know of any semi-auto versions that have the external appearance of the military version.

A bolt rifle in .223 is better suited for this kind of terror operation and they are commonplace. Also, 5.45mm bullets are very uncommon and the few types that exist could easily be matched with the recovered bullet fragments by the FBI lab.

[DrCarl]

>it would, though, be a terrible weapon if you need a second round quick

Has there been a second shot in any of these assaults? Didn't I hear that only once, a second shot was taken? Don't know how long he took to reload.

You know, I hate this bas***d, whoever he is. He needs to get caught.

[VOA]

Me? I can hit a deer size target at 150 yards with open sites and a roundball, but I
can barely see 150 yards at night. And at a moving target? Head shot?

I'm with you Dr. Carl.
Whoever the shooter(s) is/are, they are GOOD.
They live up to that One Shot-One Kill credo.

Average Joes/Josephines such as myself know that if I MUST make a hit on an animal
(deer, bear, NOT a human), at range...you go for center-of-mass. NOT a head-shot!

[Eaker]

Sniper Ping!!

Stay safe; stay armed.

[Tailback]

I can hit a head sized circle shooting offhand (standing)at 100 yards easily, this guy is probably shooting prone or sitting. I don't know about Virginia but at the Home Depot here in Salem Oregon the parking lot is well lit at night. What was the range that this most recent shot was taken?

[DrCarl]

>I think he could shoot the same pattern with a T/C at 100 ~ 150 yards with little or no practice at all.

I should get one. I'm a lousy handgun shot. I shoot single shot rifle, offhand well.

[billhilly]

That narrows it down.

[DrCarl]

>What was the range that this most recent shot was taken?

I don't know. The media makes up distances as they go along, it seems. One time I hear 200 yards. The next time, 100 yards. Maybe they don't know. Have they found any brass yet?

[OKSooner]

I heard an account of last nite's shooting that said the guy stepped out of a car and shot the woman from 30 yards, then drove away.

Some of the other shots sounded more difficult for the "average" shooter, though.

[m1911]

Semi auto AK74s are available, I see them in the Shotgun News a lot, along with various ammo. I agree that it's probably not the weapon though, whatever the shooter's motivation and background. I suspect it is an "evil black rifle" for a couple of reasons: It allows the shooter to fantasize about actual combat if that's the brand of sicko we're dealing with, and if it is an ideologically motivated shooter, it will allow him to "take a few with him" when they get him.

[humblegunner]

The pic does not work for me..

Now it does.. problem on my end, no doubt!

[ccmay]

An AR-15 or Mini-14 is probably a good guess as to what he's using

Well, reportedly there is a spent case on hand from one of the prior shootings, and according to one of the posters above, the weapon has been ID'd as an AK-74 . I assume the FBI knows the difference between a .223/5.56mm case and a 5.45x39mm Russian case.

Of course, if it is truly an AK-74, to me this would increase the likelihood that the shooter is a Middle Easterner or other foreigner, as that is a distinctly unusual weapon in this country. In fact it is a select-fire weapon that was manufactured after the 1968 cutoff for full-auto imports. There shouldn't be any legal weapons of this type in the country, unless owned by police or military. Naturally, they can be had by the barrelful in the arms bazaar of Peshawar.

Does anyone know if there were any semi-auto lookalikes imported?

-ccm

[muawiyah]

One or more witnesses described the weapon. To a degree we have to assume they know what they were looking at because many of them were from Arab countries where the AK-74 is standard issue!

BTW, the HomeDepot parking garage at 7-Corners is well-lit and open 24 hours per day!

[Dead Dog]

MSNBC is reporting the weapon to be an AK-74 derivitive. Might by the russian .223 type round, or a sportorized version that fires .223 remmington. Not sure where their info is comming from.

[Dead Dog]

Does anyone know if there were any semi-auto lookalikes imported?

Yes there are, and I believe some are chambered for 5.56 NATO, and I've been told the -74 was designed to chamber the 5.56 NATO for battlefield reasons.

[MarkL]

As someone who's shot and scored "High Power Rifle" matches, I can tell you that a silencer on a rifle is not of much use, if the bullet is traveling at supersonic speeds. Even if you can't hear the shot itself, as the bullet passes near you, you hear a VERY sharp and loud "crack."

And a bullet that light, moving that slowly, wouldn't be terribly accurate.

Mark

[billhilly]

Just joking. Keep up your serious work.

[COB1]

I see no reason why the shooter would NOT use a scope!
Why take a chance of missing?
A head shot at 200 yards with a decent scope would not be a problem.
Besides, the scope would gather light and let him shoot in low light conditions.
As far as the type of rifle used, that's anyone's guess.
There's a lot of .223s out there!

He's using the .223 for ballistics and for noise reduction.
The muzzle velocity achieved alleviates the variation due to distance and wind.
With the right kind of ammo, the .223 is extremely deadly, and the disintegration of the bullet on impact leaves less for forensics to study.

I'm leaning more everyday to a terrorist or a terrorist cell.
I think this might be a pilot run of what we can expect if it works well.
The danger of catching this guy is that he might have ten pounds of C-4 around his middle and a grenade within easy reach.

[NWO Slave]

Report: I was in Falls Church, VA last night

Robert Young, a DC construction worker was at the Home Depot area at the time of the shooting and told investigators he saw the shooter(s). He said he was pulling out and inadvertently blocked two men in a white Astrovan. They were very agitated and sped around him. Here's what he told the authorities: THE MEN WERE MIDDLE EASTERN!!!!!!

[VOA]

Some of the other shots sounded more difficult for the "average" shooter, though.

I'd heard that two of the early shots were pretty challenging head shots...hadn't actually
heard the range of the latest sad event.

Maybe I'm just a naive CSI wannabe, but I've been intrigued why this shooter(s),
if they are so good (one shot-one kill mostly) use a gun that leaves a spent round
for forensic evidence?
I always thought the professional "hit man" prefered to use a revolver, not a semi-auto pistol
in order to take his shell casings away with him from the crime scene.

Why not just jump out of the car with a bolt-action .223, do the single shot
and hop back into the car...heck, he/she/they could have an Uzi in the vehicle if
needed to counter a law enforcement/armed citizen who challenges them.

Like I've said before, this whole "reign of terror" will fill thousands of PhD theses.

[Woahhs]

I have owned a Mac 90 (semi-auto AK variant) that was chambered for standard NATO 5.56 (.223 for the uninitiated). They aren't that hard to find, and they are as dependable as death and taxes. Could be our perp has the best of both worlds, a ubiquitous caliber, in the envelope he grew up on.

[Trailerpark Badass]

As someone who's shot and scored "High Power Rifle" matches, I can tell you that a silencer on a rifle is not of much use, if the bullet is traveling at supersonic speeds. Even if you can't hear the shot itself, as the bullet passes near you, you hear a VERY sharp and loud "crack."

However, the witness will "hear" the ballistic crack as coming from a direction perpendicular to the line of flight of the projectile as it passes him. That is a primary function of a suppressor in sniping, to disguise the shooter's location.

However, I doubt the shooter is using a suppressor.

[Tailback]

Here's a URL to Romanian AK-74 semi auto imports in .223 caliber.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/AIM_Rifles_1.html

It's the second rifle from the bottom.

[nightdriver]

That .22 Eargesplitten intrigues me!

[OKSooner]

Good questions all. My theory is that he/they fumbled and dropped a cartridge as they were getting away from the scene. Of course, I was thinking bolt-action .223 and it sounds like they're leaking the news that the rifle is actually a Soviet era AK-74. I think we're about to find out for sure, tho. Sounds like they're about to composite the guys as a couple of ME types, according to what I'm seeing on other threads.

Man, FR is the greatest when you want all the news from all sources at once.

[COB1]

I saw that, Slave, and my first thought was, "Were they wearing a turban....or did they have a tattoo on their foreheads that said, 'I'm from Iraq'"?
How does one identify "Middle Eastern"?
I've lived over there, and I can't!

[VOA]

One other thing...
another post (#35) mentions that the parking garage is brightly lit and that Home Depot is
open 24/7.

I don't know if it's equivalent, but I've been to a 24/7 Home Depot in
Culver City, CA at 1 AM.
I left because the place was too busy and the lines at the four open check out were
snaking up the aisles.

Even if it's even remotely similar, but I gotta' say this...pulling off this
shooting sounds VERY b@llsy...
or simply reflects great planning and incredible training and discipline.

Just like the USA did after WWII with Werner Von Braun and his colleagues...
I bet that there are plenty of SWAT teams and US Military snipers cursing
this guy (or the team)...and at the same time curious to hear what this killer(s) would
have to teach them if captured alive.
(that's just my naive speculation as an avid amateur shooter in the past...)

[DrCarl]

>However, the witness will "hear" the ballistic crack as coming from a direction perpendicular to the line of flight of the projectile as it passes him

That's right. From the shooter's position, the crack sounds like it came from 40 yards down range.