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The Sniper: For shooters
10/15/02 | DrCarl

Posted on 10/15/2002 4:22:24 PM PDT by DrCarl

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To: COB1
What is really sad is that the Brady Bunch wants to use this as a vehicle to disarm us!!!

The Japanese NEVER intended to directly attack and try to occupy the US because our Militia probably comprises the largest army in the world's history. If there is ever a “boots on the ground” invasion President Bush will call up the Militia and we will kick some ass American Style!!

No, the Muslim’s will use the liberal gun haters and other enabling groups that I do not feel like naming to disarm us and make us sheep ready to be shorn then slaughtered.

This will NOT happen to the Texas Range Rovers!!!! Note the addition to my signature. This will stay until we win the War on Terror.


Stay safe; stay armed.


51 posted on 10/15/2002 5:39:10 PM PDT by Eaker
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To: COB1
>I see no reason why the shooter would NOT use a scope!

You'd be surprised. You shoot nothing but open, iron sights for years and you shoot better with them than with a scope. Me? I get confused when I look through a scope. If I can see my target with the naked eye, I'm better off with a buckhorn and a blade.

52 posted on 10/15/2002 5:39:35 PM PDT by DrCarl
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Comment #53 Removed by Moderator

Comment #54 Removed by Moderator

To: VOA
Personally, I agree with another poster who points out that these guys made their first mistake by murdering the woman at the HD they way they did. They showed their faces in close proximity to their victim.

Now the end-game.

55 posted on 10/15/2002 5:43:17 PM PDT by OKSooner
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To: Eaker
If there is ever a “boots on the ground” invasion President Bush will call up the Militia and we will kick some ass American Style!!

Thank you!
I'll be there with you.


56 posted on 10/15/2002 5:47:50 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: OKSooner
>Now the end-game.

I sure hope we do get to the end game because this murderer or these murderers, sure need to get caught. If they stop now and this turns into another anthrax mystery, it'll be hard for many to live with.

I hope they don't kill themselves when they are finally surrounded. We need to know who they are.

57 posted on 10/15/2002 5:48:48 PM PDT by DrCarl
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To: Tailback
Good point:

He's not using night vision because all of the victims have been in lit areas.

58 posted on 10/15/2002 5:49:52 PM PDT by GOPJ
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To: nanrod
There's no real way to silence a 223 or any other sort of a rifle round (other than 22 rimfire). Much of the sound involved with rifles is the sonic crack of the bullet and that can't be silenced. Other than that, you might could muffle the escaping gas on a rifle to some extent but even that's harder than with pistols.

Actually, while surfing around on this very topic, I ran across a very interesting article on Soviet 'closed circuit' rounds.

The Russians, during the Cold War, developed something called the Closed Circuit round. It had a tiny bolt inside the shell to kick the round out, and an insignificant amount of gunpowder was all that was needed to drive that miniature bolt. Usually they had to be tapered casings. They were first produced in 7.62, but eventually were produced in all major calibers. They were classified weaponry in the Soviet Union, and were a much lighter load because they don't need as much powder, since the gas pressure never leaves the shell. Its just enough charge to send the round out at 900 fps. The only sound heard is the click of the hammer and the pling of the ejected casing, and the whining whoosh of the round downrange.

59 posted on 10/15/2002 5:50:06 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Lazamataz
Actually, something occurs to me about this description: There would be no pling of an ejected case, since no gas would be available to the gas system in most semiautomatics that would allow the cycling of the mechanism. It would probably not cause an autoloading of the next round in delayed-blowback mechanisms either. It might function okay in recoil-operated weapons.

However, all you'd need to do to get the next round up and ready is to cycle the action manually.

60 posted on 10/15/2002 5:53:38 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: muawiyah
That's all very good, but NBC says the cops have a witness who identified the weapon as an AK-74!

Well, the witness is obviously full of sh*t. Are there any weapons that take the .223 that look something like an AK-47? Of course, to many people, a lot of guns look like an AK-47!
61 posted on 10/15/2002 5:54:12 PM PDT by Hemlock
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To: muawiyah
My retarded! There is an AK-74, and it takes a 5.45 mm cartridge.
62 posted on 10/15/2002 5:58:17 PM PDT by Hemlock
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To: DrCarl
They give this guy way too much credit. I've got 50 year old eyes and can hit a deer at 100 yrds with a 30-30 lever action and iron sites. (no photos but imagine about a 4-5" group of 5 rounds.
63 posted on 10/15/2002 6:03:02 PM PDT by TC Rider
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To: Eaker
Yeah, I just saw where the Maryland governor put a ban on the firing of all rifles in a four county area since deer season is coming up.
Strange part was that he banned bows, also!
LOL!

When all of this first started, the AR-15 was the weapon of choice for the anti-gunners as the weapon which the sniper was using to kill people.
That was a real handy excuse to outlaw assault weapons.
You can bet that no matter if this turns out to be a bolt action single shot, the assault weapons are somehow to blame.

I take all of this info that we are getting with a grain of salt.
I doubt seriously that the forensics people can tell a varmint round from an anti-personnel round after it disintegrates in the target.
I'm sure that the pressure is tremendous to make some guesses which can be used as facts until the facts present themselves.

64 posted on 10/15/2002 6:04:49 PM PDT by COB1
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To: Hemlock
That's what happens when you don't read the posts carefully.

But, you have ideological and emotional company. We have some Alaskans out there wanting to know why folks in the effete East chose to go around unarmed. They note that "back home" they'd shot this perp to pieces.

This always requires a long story about Virginia not being part of Maryland, and we have guns - big guns - actually really, really, really big guns, and they have to give us a permit to carry a concealed weapon, which is why all adult males walk with a limp - it's from the rifle or shotgun down their britches!

Leastwise some folks think that. In any case, the situation at the Home Depot involved dozens of people running and screaming. This spoiled the shot. Besides, the witnesses knew how valuable they were alive, and it was clear the guy was ready to rock and roll with bursts of 4 from his AK-74~ ~ ~ ~ / ~ ~ ~ ~ /

65 posted on 10/15/2002 6:05:11 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: DrCarl
"You shoot nothing but open, iron sights for years and you shoot better with them than with a scope."

I agree to a point.
That's all I shot with for most of my life; however, if I were going after people and planning on taking shots of two hundred yards or so, I'd always opt for a good scope.
Case in point:
You've not seen a sniper in the military using open sights since they quit using the Springfield '06.

66 posted on 10/15/2002 6:11:48 PM PDT by COB1
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To: Eaker
BTW: I saw the addition to your signature, but I never did learn how to read Egyptian.
67 posted on 10/15/2002 6:15:44 PM PDT by COB1
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To: OKSooner
"Personally, I agree with another poster who points out that these guys made their first mistake by murdering the woman at the HD they way they did"

If they really did it that way, it was a real mistake. However as yet, I have not heard pursuasive testimony that is what happened--what we have heard is a witness who heard a "muffled" shot; and then saw a white van driven by two ME types in an agitated condition attempting to break into traffic. No where have we heard or read him saying "I saw the muzzle flash from the white truck driven by the two . . . "

These guys have been very careful to maintain operational security and this kind of amateur mistake at this point would be surprising but possible.

Also, in order for this guy to have seen the truck and the ME types at the time the shot was fired, the shot was relatively short range--50 yards or so. It appears that the prior shots have been at greater ranges up to 200-300 yards which helps maintain operational security also.

68 posted on 10/15/2002 6:15:55 PM PDT by David
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To: Dead Dog
.221 Remington Fire Ball (First chambering for XP100 pistol)
69 posted on 10/15/2002 6:16:22 PM PDT by Calamari
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: FF578
Wow!

Thanks for the info--didn't know!
71 posted on 10/15/2002 6:48:19 PM PDT by MonroeDNA
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To: spunkets
You, too. Thanks a bunch! Didn't know at all.
72 posted on 10/15/2002 6:49:42 PM PDT by MonroeDNA
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To: OKSooner
I am humbled by my lack of knowledge. And thanks!
73 posted on 10/15/2002 6:51:15 PM PDT by MonroeDNA
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To: dts32041
I had no idea! And I am a shooter, though not a good one.

Thanks!
74 posted on 10/15/2002 6:53:16 PM PDT by MonroeDNA
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To: OKSooner
I heard an account of last nite's shooting that said the guy stepped out of a car and shot the woman from 30 yards, then drove away.

So where's the cartridge?

75 posted on 10/15/2002 6:56:28 PM PDT by js1138
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To: muawiyah
Or perhaps the Galil .223 ARM?

IMI Galil

http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/galil.html

76 posted on 10/15/2002 6:58:08 PM PDT by dmcnash
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To: Hemlock
Somehow I rather doubt the witness said anything about an AK-74. I've been reading FR threads for years and never heard of it. I don't believe it has come up before on FR as a possibility.

My guess is the witness described something, possibly mentioning the AK-47, and the cops/feds figured it out. It's possible they already knew from the bullet signature.

77 posted on 10/15/2002 7:03:12 PM PDT by js1138
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To: TC Rider
>I've got 50 year old eyes and can hit a deer at 100 yrds with a 30-30 lever action and iron sites.

Well, my eyes are a tad older than yours, my gun is more primitive than yours and I can hit a deer at distances greater than 100 yards, so we're both pretty good, but we don't know how far these shots have been. I don't know about you but I'm hearing everything from 30 yards to 200 yards.

78 posted on 10/15/2002 7:03:45 PM PDT by DrCarl
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To: COB1
Many Middle Easterners are missing appendages (ear, finger, eye)
79 posted on 10/15/2002 7:07:48 PM PDT by ampat
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To: DrCarl
Of the threads I've read, have not seen any mention of a handheld electronic range finder or any kind, for that matter.
From what I gathered, some shots were longer than others.

Would the use of such a mechanical device fit these scenarios?

80 posted on 10/15/2002 7:08:17 PM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: COB1
>if I were going after people and planning on taking shots of two hundred yards or so, I'd always opt for a good scope.

We don't know how far these shots are. We're hearing everything. For me, with open sights, 200 yards is a long way off but basically, if I can see it, I can shoot it. If I needed to shoot a man at 200 yards with open, iron sights, I'd hit him, but I'd be pushing my luck to be going for one shot head shots.

81 posted on 10/15/2002 7:08:40 PM PDT by DrCarl
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To: CWRWinger
>Would the use of such a mechanical device fit these scenarios?

Naaaa... I don't think this guy is using a range finder. I am not hearing anything that suggests these are very long distance shots.

I don't know. I hope the authorities are working with a lot more information than we are.

82 posted on 10/15/2002 7:10:41 PM PDT by DrCarl
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To: DrCarl
Contender 21" Blued 223 Rem No.4820 with Adjustable Sights for the contender carbine.

The Contender Carbine Kit uses the Contender pistol's frame to attach a shoulder stock and carbine barrel thereby converting the pistol to a single shot rifle using an allen wrench and a screw driver. While it is illegal to attach the 10" or 14" .223 barrel to the frame with the shoulder stock in place, I doubt this would stop some one that was going to use it for murdering people.

The 10" and 14" barrels can be fitted with telescopic sights and when combined with the shoulder stock provide a very compact single shot rifle that is more than capable of making the kind of shots reported on the victims.

Is this what is being used? Possibly but I doubt it, since the Contender is not a main-stream weapon and the carbine kit for the pistol is even less well known.

However we are being lead to beleive that the projectile has survived intact or in large fragments within the some of the victims and this would indicate less velocity than a standard bolt action or semi automatic rifle would produce.My thoughts are that the bullet would completely penetrate the victim and be long gone or lodged in something down range. In fact I recall that the school child actually had the bullet traverse several organs and not exit his body. A shortened rifle barrel will produce less velocity from a "standard" .223"(5.56mm) round.

The Contender is capable of hitting human head size targets at 200 meters (220 yds.) in the hands of a very skilled shooter with regular iron sights. With a scope, a rest and a shoulder stock you do not need to be highly skilled just competent.

83 posted on 10/15/2002 7:37:33 PM PDT by Calamari
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To: Trailerpark Badass
However, I doubt the shooter is using a suppressor.
I agree. Also to use a suppressor correctly, one has to use subsonic ammunition. I am not aware of any subsonic .223 ammunition (although it may be available somewhere) and for some reason I just doubt that these guys are reloaders...
84 posted on 10/15/2002 7:53:53 PM PDT by RebelDawg
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To: DrCarl
Whoever he is, he's got some serious high-tech equipment on a low-tech gun.
85 posted on 10/15/2002 8:07:23 PM PDT by pray4liberty
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To: Dead Dog
Dead Dog,

Nice list, but you forgot a few

.22 K-Hornet
.218 Mashburn Bee
.22 Lindahl Chucker
.22 Savage High Power
.22 Kilbourne
.22 Marcianti "Blue Streak"
.22 High Power Ackley
.22-303 Varmint-R
.228 Hawk
.22 Neidner Magnum (rimmed or rimless)
.22/6/40
.221 Fireball
.22 WMR
5mm Remington
.224 Donaldson-Ace
.22 Short Krag
.22 Super PDC

or
22 tungsten bullet saboted and shot out of a .308 or .50 BMG. Boy, wouldn't that freak out the FBI ballistics guys. No rifling marks and imagine the penetration. (BTW - I know someone who actually did that)

Also I'd like to comment on this AK-74 idiocy. All of the AKs are darn solid and reliable fully or semi automatic rifles. No self respecting sniper would ever dream of using one though, since they are not known for their accuracy. Snipers have no need for a 30 round clip. They believe in "one shot one kill". Besides that, how a witness who cannot identify a gunman can identify a AK-74 is beyond me. To the average person, an AK-47, AK-74, the SAR-3 .223 variant and the .308 VEPR all look alike from a distance of 2 feet. A "gun person" would have a hard time identifying the differences at 25 feet in broad daylight. The witness who saw it must have eagle eyes and nerves of steel. Chances are, he saw the snipers spotter or driver on the way out, and some police nimrod assumed that since he gun had a banana clip and the victim had a 22 cal slug in him that it must be an AK-74. Not very good police work if you ask me.

86 posted on 10/15/2002 8:15:11 PM PDT by FreeInWV
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To: humblegunner
I'll be there with you.

Hey, remember, you were already invited as the voice of reason!!!!!

;<)

Now all that we need is a Hummer, carrier and airforce.

I am researching payment options on the Hummer, if you check out pricing on the carrier and COB buys about 70 mixed hat of F-14, F-15, F16, A10 and maybe an AWAC's we should all be good!!


Stay safe; stay armed.


87 posted on 10/15/2002 11:49:24 PM PDT by Eaker
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To: COB1
BTW: I saw the addition to your signature, but I never did learn how to read Egyptian.

I forgot that the Egyptian culture had died out before you were born!!!

;<)


Stay safe; stay armed.

MOLON LABE (hope this helps!)

88 posted on 10/15/2002 11:54:19 PM PDT by Eaker
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To: DrCarl
Same here, point being, these guys are not supermen.

The media can't get it straight.

(My Dad, 80, can actually do much better than I with a black powder piece.)
89 posted on 10/16/2002 3:11:28 AM PDT by TC Rider
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To: MonroeDNA
I didn't mean you, by the way, I was referring to the people at NBC. Looks like it might REALLY turn out to be an AK-74 or something similar. So maybe they're spot on for once.
90 posted on 10/16/2002 5:34:38 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: js1138
I have no idea where the cartridge is. Could still be in the chamber of the gun. I'm just trying to make sense of the press reports and other information we're getting.
91 posted on 10/16/2002 5:37:41 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: js1138
I'd been thinking the murder weapon would turn out to be a a .223 bolt gun, but who the heck knows? Is the AK-74 a fact or fiction, or just bad police work as someone else has posted?
92 posted on 10/16/2002 5:40:04 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: MarkL
Loading down to subsonic is effective at 200 yards with a .223
93 posted on 10/16/2002 9:10:14 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: COB1
The danger of catching this guy is that he might have ten pounds of C-4 around his middle and a grenade within easy reach.

That's when the cops have him strip down to his bare butt before approaching, I hope.

94 posted on 10/16/2002 9:12:10 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: David
then saw a white van driven by two ME types in an agitated condition attempting to break into traffic

And this being a Home Depot, it couldn't be a couple of ME or Hispanic construction types in their white van FLEEING IN PANIC from the scene of the shooting?

I think that the reason they are not releasing a composite is because the witness accounts were unreliable. I read yesterday where the bloodhound (more reliable than wigged-out witnesses) followed the trail of the scent from the victim to a dark area accross the road.

A freeper speculated that he might scoped out the area where he was going to shoot and then walked to the dark area.

95 posted on 10/16/2002 2:32:02 PM PDT by ARCADIA
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