Sniper's Rifle: AK-74?

MS-NBC (Brian Williams) | 10/15/02 | Self

[MikeJ]

I was flipping channels past MS-NBC news tonight, and I heard Brian Williams report that the Maryland sniper is believed to be using an AK-74. He mentioned that they even asked the police if it was OK to report this, and that the police gave them the go-ahead.

I have no idea how they would determine this - does a '74 leave distinctive marks on the brass? I recall that some AK-style rifles are available in .223, but aren't most of the '74s chambered for that 22 caliber Russian round?

Seems like an odd choice for a sniper weapon, and odder still that the shooter would limit himself to single shots. If it is true, it might add some more weight to the theory of our sniper having middle eastern origins.

[MikeJ]

For what it's worth.

[joesnuffy]

Consider the source

[Thane_Banquo]

Most AK47s are chambered in 7.62mm.

[MikeJ]

That's 5.45x39 Russian.

Here's an AK-74:

[agrandis]

I must confess, I had never heard of an AK-74. It's a .22?

[MikeJ]

As I understand it, the AK-74 was the (1974-era) upgrade to the AK-47 - it shoots a bullet similar to a regular AK-47 round, but necked down to 22 caliber. The idea is better penetration through body armor? Maybe some experts here can fill in the details. The magazines are typically red, rather than black.

[agrandis]

I found this. Very interesting!

Caliber, mm: 5.45
Cartridge: model 1974, 5.45x39
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt with 2 lugs
Magazine capacity, rds: 30
Weight: 3,200 g (with empty magazine without bayonet);
3,500 g (with loaded magazine)
Full length (w/o bayonet): 933 mm
Length w/folded butt: 700 mm
Sighting range,m: 1000
Muzzle velocity, m/s: 900

AK-74 series of assault rifles is a "direct child" of world-known AK-47. Following the world trend for small-calibre assault rifles, M.T.Kalashnikov created this weapon system for lightweight and low-impulse cartridge 5.45x39. When compared to M16, AK-74 shows a little poorer accuracy, but better reliability in battle environment and lower requirements for cleaning and maintenance during combat.

Very concealable, no?

[agrandis]

Maybe the press was just reporting the round as a .223, because the cops were giving them the closest, well-known caliber?

[n2rox]

does anyone know the distance at which these sniper shots have been fired?

[agrandis]

This link has mention of AK-74 used by police in Azerbaijan.

[ChuteTheMall GawdSortaMount]

The AK style semi-automatic rifles sold in America today are mostly 7.62 x 39 (.30 caliber) and a lesser number are the 5.45 x 39 (a Russian answer to our .223 round) but there are a few available in .223 and this might be the choice of this so-called sniper. All AK series rifles are durable and reliable, even if dirty, and accurate enough out to 100 yards, like nearly all rifles.

[agrandis]

have heard a lot of different things about distance of shots. Surely the cops have an idea.

[TheBattman]

OF course, we should keep in mind that the AK74 and it's parent the AK-47 are NOT known for accuracy, instead being known for reliability.

Unless most of the shots the sniper has made are from MUCH closer distances than originally thought, I would doubt that this type of rifle would be the weapon of choice.

[Cloud William]

Any AK with a folding buttstock would be quite concealable, yes. That 5.45 projectile is pure poison, too - very nasty wound ballistics. The side-mounted Russian scopes which fit the AK series would put the AK-74 in the accuracy ballpark for 150-yard shots, but head shots with an AK trigger? That'd be iffy with a very experienced shooter.

That short-barreled Krinkov that bin Laden was always toting around was based on the AK-74. Heyyy...

[agrandis]

Un poco mas...

The AK-74 is a highly effective automatic weapon designed for the antipersonnel role at a range of 1000 m. The system automation operates on propellant gases driven through a vent in the barrel. The 5.56 mm AK-74 is an updated version of the 5.45 mm AK-74 to comply with NATO standard cartridges. A plastic butt is furnished and the general design features a basic individual infantry weapon. The complete set includes also a knife and scabbard-cutter kit with the provision of being used as a bayonet. A 40 mm barrel-mounted Kstyor grenade launcher of 400 m effective range can be fitted to AK-74. Single and multiple targets can be destroyed firing bursts up to 550 m range. Skilled firers hit targets in the single-shot mode up to 700 m for 5.45 mm AK-74 and over 700 m for 5.56 mm AK-74. The bullet retains its killing effect over a range of 1500 m.

[Shaka]

They're called AK variants and the one used is more than likely a SAR-3 AK. They can be and are used by snipers i foreign countries...commy countries to be exact. And of course they the weapon of choice/availability in our favorite Muslim nations. The SAR-3 shoots the .223 round and is quite accurate up to 200 yards and below...most of the reporting on the sniper's distance has been at about 100-150 yards if the figures are accurate.

The shooter has to be "familiar" with the AK's and it's variant to be as accurate as he has been. Head shots @ 120 yds. w/ an AK is'nt something everyone can do in a weekend. You have to have the right scope and mount for the gun...and be familiar with it's design..which leads me to think it's a Muslim sympathizer who is familair with the AK gun. If it were a bolt action..that would a different kind of shooter..if it were an AR another.

The use of the AK in itself, speaks volumes on who the shooter could be, I believe.

[alaskanfan]

I remember a few years ago while reporting a shooting with an "assault rifle" one of the female coresondents on pmsnbc said "probably a 357 magnum" I was laughing so hard I almost threw-up.

[suijuris]

but there are a few available in .223 and this might be the choice of this so-called sniper.

Almost bought one of these several years back but decided I was better of with Daewoo D100.

The Ak in .223 was/is called an AK-84S It was/is made by Norinco in 3 versions; the Polytech 16in; the Norinco 16in. and the Polytech 21in In the RPK style. All three have a 1 in 9 twist to the rifling. Not considered quite as accurate as an AR15, but very reliable otherwise.

see it here

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4617/ak47/gak223chf.html

[Shaka]

150 yard head shots can be done with a Red Star triger or any of the 2 stage triggers available on the market. Like I said...this guy is very familiar with the Ak to have this type of "success" with it. He has been trained in another country to use an AK..in my opinion. A bolt action Rem 700 could be effectively shot by a 12 yr. old. The AR is also a very easy gun to shoot accurately...but, the AK has it's quirks. And this guy is dead to rights on his targeting.

[agrandis]

I did a check for AK-74s in NAtional Military Inventories. Only Russia, Bulgaria, The Czech Republic, Poland, and Afghanistan were listed for this weapon. It was a rare one. Of course, this inventory did not include special ops groups and interior forces and police.

[SShultz460]

.223 is a Varment Rifle Round...If I were to snipe people it would be with somthing that had some punch, a 7mm or 306...I do find it definatly odd that a .223 is the chosen round...

[agrandis]

Afghanistan being the only non-former East Bloc nation that has this kind of weapon officially in their inventory is interesting. Al-Qeda obviously has ample access to this weapon.

[Flintlock]

The Russian .22 has a heavy, distinctive bullet that would not be mistaken for the 5.56mm (.223) NATO round. Some projectile parts were recovered, so the Police would know. Though some AK variants were made in the .223 caliber I doubt that they would be used due to the accuracy problem.
The newer 'Saiga' version of a sporterized AK is another matter entirely. It would do at 150 yards any day with a decent scope.

[Anotherpundit]

this would, imho, make it far more likely that they're terrists.

[quidnunc]

Mark Furman on Fox News mentioned that the gun was reported to be a ChiCom version of the AK-74 in .223.

[Shaka]

Thats why I'm referring to the SAR-3 variant...it is available here in the U.S. and I'm thinking this Muslim sympathizer is familiar with it and probably bought one in the States. Then outfitted it for sniping "trigger, scope and mount". But, his training definitely comes from the East of us. And more than likely it is a legal semi that was purhased from anywhere in the country...legally.

He's a Muslim "sleeper" ,who found a way to make himself relevant in the Jihad..that is why he's not claiming reponsibility or plastering threats everywhere...he's on a mission for Allah. At least that is my theory...and he is using his training and tools of the trade.

[Anotherpundit]

That makes me much more willing to believe it's terrists.

I should've suspected this when I heard they were using wolf ammo, though. No self-respecting marksman would put that stuff through an AR :P

[rockfish59]

thet anythin' lahk an HD 74 motuhsickle?

[spycatcher]

Previous thread with more info here

[Shaka]

And i would bet he's using FMJ M193 ball rounds...the same as the AR..thats why the reporter "experts" were jumping on the AR black assault band wagon early.

[agrandis]

I was dubious of the speculation that these killings were by ME terrorists, but I am becoming convinced now that they ARE. This nation was supposed to be protected (and its Constitution protected), by We, the People, by militias (all able-bodied men in America). I urge everyone who can to get a concealed weapons permit, to take training, and to always carry. If you have a rifle and land or a nearby range, practice, and teach your boys, if you have any.

I'm afraid this turmoil will all eventually lead to chaos, and either a civil war or an increasingly brutal police state. Speaking for me, I will live free or die. I urge these actions here at FR because I believe most of you here are conservatives or liberterians that love your country, love freedom, and love the law of the land (the US Constitution) and I want to see the right side prepared, and the right side come out on top. Also, maybe we can avert that chaos that seems to loom in the future if we will be vigilant now. To Hell with Iraq, or even China or North Korea at this point - the battle is here.

[edhawk]

Varmint rounds have a nice flat trajectory though and
the .224 bullets traveling at 3000+ feet per second
can cause some real havoc on soft tissue.
Take a look at these pictures and video clips of what
they can do to soft skined targets.
http://www.dogbegone.co
go to the video images section.......
warning graphic images here.

[SBprone]

The 5.45mm bullet fired in the AK-74 could fairly be called a .22. We're talking about the difference between 5.45mm and the 5.65mm NATO round used in the US M16. It's just enough difference that the bullets are not interchangeable. Of course the cartridges are very different with the Russian cartridge being derived from the earlier 7.62X39mm cartridge used in the AK-47 type rifles.

The ballistic performance of the Russian and NATO 22s are very similar. The Russian cartridge has slightly lower velocity with a slightly longer and heavier bullet. It is reputed to cause an even nastier wound channel than the NATO bullet due to the greater instability of this bullet once it strikes flesh.

The .223 can be dead nuts accurate because American target and varmint shooters have been working with it for nearly 40 years, with much of this knowledge base incorporated into current NATO weapon systems. The 5.45 Russian has not been developed to anywhere near the same degree with respect to accuracy. Russian small arms generally, including their sniper rifles, are not known for accuracy.

[cinFLA]

If I were to snipe people it would be with somthing that had some punch, a 7mm or 306...I do find it definatly odd that a .223 is the chosen round...

He is near perfect in his kills. Enough punch to devastate the human body.

[Shaka]

agandis,
I'm already there...CCW, live in Florida and know that SHTF is here. In one way or another, we have to stay vigilant and be prepared. I just hope and pray that the sun will set on the ban...and we can enjoy the 2nd ammendment again. All that has happened the past year would probably knock out the arguements on NOT needing firearms for protection. We need them now more than anytime in our history. Besides..no day is complete without going through a Beta C at full auto! :)))))))))))

[edhawk]

sorry left off the "m" on the link
http://www.dogbegone.com

[SBprone]

Sorry, that's 5.56 NATO. Who uses metric anyway?

[deadlywithapen]

When this first started the police showed an example of the bullet that was used by the sniper it appeared to be a 7.62mm X 39 russian round.

I could be wrong about this, but it struck me as kinda funny that the sniper would use this round and weapon.

[suijuris]

Mark Furman on Fox News mentioned that the gun was reported to be a ChiCom version of the AK-74 in .223.

.223 variant is a Norinco Polytech AK 84S

[Shaka]

SB,
Again...the SAR-3 variant shoots the .223 round. The SAME round that we use in our AR-15's. The more abundant .223 round in the U.S. has made this gun a popular one for AK shooters...besides it's easier on the shoulder than a 7.62. The Romanian SAR's can be bought for about $300-$350 and are readily available here. The shooter is probably using this very gun. I used to have a "blonde" furniture Romanian 7.62...got an Egyptian and a Bulgarian now...nice guns. But, I would'nt choose them as sniper guns. Maybe SHTF because you shoot them from the mud and dirt but not sniping.

[SteveH]

If this is true the info should have been released as soon as it was known by the authorities. How many Violence Policy Center and HCI press releases have their been since last week condemning innocent gun owners and their .223 rifles, which are only now revealed not to be the sniper's weapon?

...sorry but the investigation seems to have elements of Keystone in it in my opinion (and that is being charitable)...

[SEAL6]

Everybody makes such a big deal about this guy firing at 100m which means he isn't such a hot shot at all. Have you ever looked around a typical urban area? It is almost imposible to get a line-of-sight beyond that distance. Pluse the fact that the .223 kill capability drops of significantly beyond 200m.

For get the spelling. Just deal with it.

[hoosierskypilot]

"...odd that a .223 is the chosen round.."

It's very cheap, right now. Like, 10 cents a round for Wolf ammo. You remember Wolf, don't you? That's the ammo the Russians were importing into America in the green military boxes. Then Clinton said military ammo was bad and outlawed it. So the Russians, always ready to take advantage of an ignorant dimocrat, changed the box, put a wolf on the front, and called it hunting ammo. Clinton said that was fine. Exact same ammo, though.

[wattsup]

The Russians developed this gun to shoot the same ammo as the M-16. But the M-16 can't shoot the ammo of the AK-74. Neat trick huh

[Pushi]

I agree with you.

[agrandis]

Good! I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir, here, but I was thinking, I myself need to spend some time with my guns. It's expensive, and I am short on time, but I see it as one of my duties in life.

Remember this, too - even if today the government is your friend (my time in AR during Clinton made me realize that ain't true, but, for the sake of argument...) tomorrow, you may need to fight it off. If a country has to have gun laws of any sort, it isn't what the United states was meant to be.

[HP8753]

If you have a rifle and land or a nearby range, practice, and teach your boys, if you have any.
Lets not be sexist,My daughters are quite proficient with firearms and have made more than a few guys take notice at the rifle range.

[rlwinston]

I thought I read someware when the 5.56 round was accepted into NATO use a different bullet and rifling was used because:
1-It was able to penetrate a typical Helmet
2-It was a more "Humane bullet" because it did not cause
as nasty a wound and the US version

Any body read this?

[El Gato]

According to this site, the 5.45x39 uses a 53 grain bullet, just about the same as the older M193 5.56X45 NATO rounds (55 gr). Velocity is about the same too. 5.45 is available in hollow point as well as FMJ, the latter of which is shown above. Several different loading can be found with various bullet weights, but all of nearly the same weight (50-57 grains from one source) and velocity.